Andrew Hatherley: Rising from the Ashes of Gray Divorce to Create an Amazing Life

Episode Description

Are you prepared to navigate the complexities of Gray Divorce and uncover the potential for personal growth that comes with it?

Join this conversation with Andrew Hatherley, founder and CEO of Wiser Divorce Solutions, Transcend Retirement, and host of the Gray Divorce podcast.

Andrew dives deeply into the concept of post-traumatic growth and how it can help those going through a divorce develop resilience and strength in spite of the challenges they face.  Andrew shares how committing to a healthier lifestyle, opening a new business, and even writing a novel, helped him bounce back from his own gray divorce.

Andrew explores the idea of how divorce can help us get to know ourselves on a deeper level. He also examines the concept of "Helper's Eye" and its potential to help break negative cycles.

Don't miss out on this inspiring and insightful conversation with Andrew Hatherley as we explore the opportunities for growth and self-discovery that can arise from Gray Divorce.

Show Notes

About Andrew

After going through his own gray divorce, Andrew decided to help others avoid the financial and emotional stress so common to the process. Andrew earned the designation Certified Divorce Financial Analyst® and is trained in both divorce mediation and Collaborative Divorce. In 2022, Andrew started The Gray Divorce Podcast, which is focused on mid-late life divorcees.

Andrew has over 25 years’ experience in investment management and financial planning. He has also studied with leaders in the field of humanistic and positive psychology and is a strong advocate for the role creativity can play in personal growth after trauma.

Andrew has a Master of Business Administration from McGill University and ESADE. He has lived and worked in five countries and speaks Spanish. Andrew loves to write, travel, play pickleball and tennis and discuss classic movies with fellow film buffs.

Where to Connect with Andrew

Andrew Hatherley is the founder and CEO of Wiser Divorce Solutions, LLC and Transcend Retirement, LLC and the host of The Gray Divorce Podcast. You can find Andrew on Facebook at Wiser Divorce Solutions and LinkedIn at Andrew Hatherley.  You can also watch his videos on his YouTube channel at Wiser Divorce Solutions. 

Transcript

Rising from the Ashes of Gray Divorce to Create an Amazing Life

Andrew Hatherley

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

divorce, andrew, karen, gray divorce, conflict,  moving forward, finances, cdfa, podcast

SPEAKERS

Karen Covy, Andrew Hatherley

Karen Covy Host00:03

Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can figure out what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how do we get unstuck. I’m your host, Karen Covey, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. With me today is Andrew Hatherley, and Andrew is the founder and CEO of Wiser Divorce Solutions and Transcend Retirement and the host of the Gray Divorce podcast. After going through his own gray divorce, Andrew decided to help others avoid the financial and emotional stress that is so common in the divorce process. Andrew earned the designation of Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and is trained in both divorce mediation and collaborative divorce.

00:54

In 2022, Andrew started the Gray Divorce podcast, which is focused on mid to late life divorces. Andrew has over 25 years’ experience in investment management and financial planning. He's also studied with leaders in the field of humanistic and positive psychology and is a strong advocate for the role creativity can play in personal growth after trauma. Andrew has a master's of business administration from McGill University and ESADE. I don't know if I’m supposed to read the letters or just say ESADE.

01:27

I don't know. Sorry about that, but Andrew has lived and worked in five countries and speaks Spanish. He loves to write, travel, play, pick a ball and tennis and discuss classic movies. Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew Hatherley Guest01:39

Thank you very much, Karen. I’m very happy to be here. Actually, it's ESADE and, for Spanish speakers out there, escuela superior de administración y dirección de empresas.

Karen Covy Host01:52

That's beautiful. I’m glad you said it, because I don't think I would have done that so well. So thank you very much, And we're talking today. I really wanted to have you on the show to talk about Gray Divorce, which is a thing now. I know that in the circles that you and I run in both of us know what. Gray Divorce is. But in case our audience doesn't, can you explain a little bit about what a Gray Divorce is?

Andrew Hatherley Guest02:18

Sure, it's very simple. Gray Divorce is people divorcing over the age of 50. And there's been a tremendous increase since the 80s and 90s of the people over the age of 50 getting divorced. In 1990, i think it was one in 10, now three in 10, over three in 10 people getting divorced are over the age of 50.

Karen Covy Host02:42

Why do you think that is? Why is there suddenly this surge and divorce later in life?

Andrew Hatherley Guest02:49

There's a number of reasons. I think one is societally there's an increased acceptance of divorce that there wasn't 30, 40 years ago And with that a lot of people who might have been divorced 20, 30 years ago have gotten remarried, and studies have shown that the instances of divorce among second marriages are even higher than first marriages. So you have that happening. I think very important also is the increased economic independence of women. They've realized that they can go out on their own. They don't need to be tied to marriage necessarily. You've also got, of course, demographics.

03:36

I think the average man is living to about 83 years of age now and the average woman about 86. So with people living so long, they're considering whether or not they want to spend the next 20, 30 years of their life with the same person If they're not happy. It's caused them to give that some consideration. And I mentioned happiness. I think we can all acknowledge over the last 20, 30 years there's been a lot of growth in the personal development industry, let's call it. I mean you yourself are a divorce coach And I don't think 20, 30 years ago that was well known of or even coaching at all. So people are getting coaching and there's been a big boom in positive psychology and talk a little bit more about that later on. So people want to make the most of their lives And sometimes they're thinking that is going to be by themselves, or not necessarily by themselves, but not with the same partner. Maybe find a different partner.

Karen Covy Host04:42

That makes perfect sense. I mean, when you're only living to I don't know what the average lifespan was 100 years ago, but let's say it was 65 or 70. Well, when you're 65 and you figure, well you know I could get a divorce, but I could be dead before I get a divorce if that's your average lifespan. But when the lifespan increases now, all of a sudden things look a little different, right? And I know your journey with great divorce started with your own divorce Can you explain to the audience how your own experiences inform the work that you do now.

Andrew Hatherley Guest05:18

Yes, when I went through my divorce my only divorce at the age of 52, and I didn't realize at the time that I was part of a societal phenomenon, believe me, it was very much centered on the process itself and dealing with getting it done, and it wasn't a pleasant experience. And you know, I’m a financial advisor and I’ve been working in financial services since the 90s and this is a huge financial decision being made in one's life. It's probably the largest financial transaction in one's life and it's being made at a time when the emotions can be very braided And it's not an ideal scenario at all to be making such a big financial decision when the emotions are frayed. And so with a great divorce in your 50s, you know, it's even more pronounced because you don't have as much time to make up for what's essentially is a splitting of your net worth. I mean the marital assets are being split, so your net worth is being cut in half with divorce and there can be associated costs going forward as well, like spousal support.

06:40

So from the putting on my financial advisor hat going through this, i thought, boy, i learned a lot, because I was completely ignorant.

06:49

I’m embarrassed to say how ignorant I was about the divorce process beforehand And I thought, boy, i could really educate people here. And my first impulse was, as a financial advisor, to think and educate people financially both before, during and after the process. So that encouraged me to earn the CDFA designation Certified Divorce Financial Analyst in addition to my retirement designation. So help people going through the process, separate fact from fiction and afterwards understand that, or try to help people build the financial foundation for a meaningful life after divorce. And I found initially after the divorce the focus was on the financial, but I found it became more on the emotional and psychological because I had committed to resetting my life and growing personally and professionally And I thought, well, let's incorporate that element too to helping people. And so it's infused my work with a lot more personal satisfaction to help people in, because I’ve gone through the situation and anything I can do to help people in a similar situation understand that there's light at the end of the tunnel, both emotionally, psychologically and financially.

Karen Covy Host08:19

Let's talk for a minute.

08:20

I want to wind you back to the financial part for a moment, if we can, and we'll get to the other stuff as well, because I think that all of it is very important, but you said that going through a divorce is one of the biggest financial decisions that probably you're going to make in your life. Can you elaborate on that, and is this just one financial decision? Is this series of decisions? What is it, from a financial perspective, that people need to think about when they're facing divorce or deciding whether to do this, particularly in a great divorce situation?

Andrew Hatherley Guest08:57

Well, the big thing about the financial aspect from a great divorce situation is that typically, if you're over 50 or over 60, heck, I’ve even heard recently from an attorney about people in their 80s getting divorced Yep, it's a factor of time. When you're 20 or 30, and let's say you're getting divorced in your 30s, you've got probably another 30, maybe 40 working years ahead of you to put money aside for retirement In your 50s and 60s. You don't have the luxury of time on your side. So you want to make sure that when you're dividing the assets, you're doing it in a way that dividing assets and negotiating espousal support that you're putting yourself on a decent foundation going forward. And it's also with respect to training and education going forward, because with women in particular, they find it tougher financially going forward, and a lot of studies have shown. There's a recent study. It's very good. It says that the standard of living of women over the age of 50 after divorce declines to the order of about 45%, whereas men it's about 21%. So there's a number of decisions with respect to the house, with respect to retirement plans, and you often see a gender divide with respect to the house and retirement plans.

10:30

Mothers with the maternal instinct. If there are children involved, and even older children, or if they've been in the house for a long time, they want to stay in the house. But it can be tricky if there's a lot of equity there, because that's tied up in the house And you can't go to the grocery store and say, hey, I’ve got half a million dollars tied up in my house. Give me a pound of prime rib. You need to make sure that your divorce negotiations somehow account for budgeting going forward, and with men, they tend to look at their retirement plans as I think of the creature from Lord of the Rings And my precious the ring. He's crawling Gallon. That's a gallon, that's the guy.

11:17

And so I talked about the emotions getting involved. Well, sometimes it makes more sense to either sell the house, downsize, find some sort of cash out scenario where income needs and cash flow needs, because ultimately, cash flow is where a lot of stress comes from. It's like paying those bills. And so, in combining my financial planning background with the divorce work I do, a lot of attorneys are about dividing the assets and relatively equal sides of the ledger. That's fine, but you want to be able to manage your cash flow as well, so I incorporate a financial planning aspect to the work I do with divorcing people to make sure they're on a good foundation going forward.

Karen Covy Host12:13

Well, what you're talking about, cash flow, that's money and money out budgeting for lack of a better word not anyone's favorite word or concept, but very necessary, particularly in a divorce situation. But can you talk a little bit to the point of, let's say, you've got a couple and they're 65, right, so they are older than you were when you went through it. They're already. and let's say, they are already retired, so their income is pretty fixed. I mean, it is what it is and that's what it's going to be moving forward. And now all of a sudden, that's divided in half. I mean, does one spouse still? I mean, what does that do to support obligations? What does that do to cash flow? What does that do to the decisions people have to make about? Is this a good idea to do this, or should I just tough it out?

Andrew Hatherley Guest13:06

Well, that's, whether or not someone should tough it out is certainly a unique situation for each individual, and that's where working with a coach such as yourself can be a great benefit, and I’m a big believer in bringing other professionals into the process as early as possible, with divorce coaches, divorce lending practitioners. They can play a particularly strong role, particularly as I mentioned lending in this day and age because you find, with great divorce, let's say, you mentioned people 65. Well, 65-year-olds tend not always, but tend to have a lot more equity in their properties. So, and they tend to have retirement assets saved not always, but more so than someone in their 30s, they tend to have more retirement assets and more equity in the house. And that's where creative solutions can come into play with respect to extracting cash from the sale of the house, and recent developments in mortgage financing and reverse mortgage financing are allowing people to some. There are some creative solutions out there That can work with people, work for people, and that's where the money comes from in the house. In the house is key asset, certainly.

14:28

Another thing is typically someone 65 and divorce. Unless it's a second marriage, typically they've been married for 10 years. A spouse is entitled to half of the social security, of the, of the, of the higher social security payment, and it doesn't affect either the payment at all in the person receiving it. The husband's getting 3000 a month and the wife would be getting 500, then she can get 1500. So that's a consideration to take in into effect. As I mentioned the reverse mortgages in the 60s, that becomes an option And you're right.

Karen Covy Host15:10

I just want to interrupt for a second for somebody who doesn't know what a reverse mortgage. can you explain that for a minute?

Andrew Hatherley Guest15:18

I know enough about it to be dangerous, so I was. I know I work with some very good certified divorce lending professionals and I would suggest seeking counsel there, but essentially, it's a way of taking equity from your existing home, potentially using it as down payment towards a new home, but not having a mortgage. Essentially but when you pass on, you know the house is not yours anymore.

Karen Covy Host15:44

Got it, so it sounds like there's  a lot of options out there that people might not have thought about or might not know about going into the divorce process, which speaks very much to your point of getting a team with the right professionals on it so that you understand what all of your options are, things you might not have known about, and that is actually really kind of cool because it inserts an element of hope into this whole process which would otherwise be, or could be, very, very overwhelming to me. But it's a very strong work. And another thing that I wanted to talk with you about, because I know it's one of your really strong suits, is, you know, the hope of post traumatic growth. We've all heard about post-traumatic stress and how horrible it is to go through trauma and the effects of trauma. What is post traumatic growth and how does it play in, particularly to a great of worse situation?

Andrew Hatherley Guest16:46

That's a great question and I’m glad you brought that up, Karen. I just want to backtrack a little bit, because when I do my divorce workshops, if there's any message that I want to get across in these workshops, it's that there is life after divorce. Because when you're in the middle of the process, your imagination's running wild. You think the worst is going to happen, and it's often based on incorrect information. I know I remember hearing you're going to have to pay spousal support for the rest of your life. Well, no, that was probably never in the cards, but I didn't know because I was uneducated about the process. So, and of course, going through this, you know your amygdala is triggered, you're seeing saber tooth tigers around every corner. You're not, you're not thinking straight. So that's the kind of. The first point that I want to get across is that there is life after divorce and I personally experienced it, you know, i would say, for the first year or so, year and a half after divorce And that's in a great place Emotionally, because you know you're disappointed And, of course, as a financial advisor, you see your net worth cut in half and that doesn't feel very good. You know you're some. Some of your savings, a lot of your, a lot of your summers, a lot of your savings, and so, financially, i started to feel better when I put a plan in place to rebuild. But then, emotionally and psychologically, thank you I started kind of getting out of my head a little bit And I found by looking outwards, as opposed to kind of, you know, focusing on oh you know, woe is me I thought, well, let's try and turn this around. You know the proverbial making lemonade. And so I started Wiser Diverse Solutions, which is my CDFA business, but also committed and this is crucial, it's so simple, but committed to a healthier lifestyle And so simple elements such as sleep, diet and exercise just can't underestimate the benefit of those components in your life and just put you in a better mindset. And if I work out now, it's not so much. I mean, yes, there's an element of wanting to be able to fit into my clothes and look half decent to my clothes, but I think more than anything it's the cycle, it's the way I feel after exercising and working out. So this continued and it became a virtuous cycle. So the exercise and the diet and sleep gave me more energy and that gave me the energy to actually write a novel with a partner of mine, which is something that I’ve always wanted to do.

19:44

In the process lost 16 pounds, opened, as I said, a new business and now two businesses and started these divorce workshops.

19:59

And this experience, this positive experience after divorce I mentioned educating people about the financial aspect, but this positive growth experience that I started to go through about two or three years after the divorce encouraged me to learn more about positive psychology And, of course, that's when I came across the term post-traumatic growth, which I believe was coined by a psychologist by the name of Richard Tadeschi, and he talks about how it's really under, how resilient we are is really underrated And in society today I think we're getting away from that a little bit and we're becoming a little excuse the editorial, but a little too victim-minded, where we have strength inside and we have resilience And that's what he emphasized and that's kind of what I’m trying to get across through my experience to my clients. And Tadeschi talks about how we can work with people and he uses the term expert companion, working with people and I’m not a psychologist but I just try and help people based on the experience I had and guiding people through education and discussing what they've gone through to the possibilities that lay beyond divorce.

Karen Covy Host21:33

But I wanna point out first of all, thank you for sharing that, And I think you are a testament to your life and what you've accomplished since your divorce. it's a testament to what's possible And I really hope that people hear that, because when you're in the middle of the divorce and all the misery in the, you're watching money fly out the door because you're paying all the professionals and now you're gonna have to split everything and you don't know what's gonna happen to you or your kids or your family. And it doesn't matter what age your kids are. even adult children have got an opinion about their parents' divorce and it affects them.

Andrew Hatherley Guest22:11

Everybody's got an opinion.

Karen Covy Host22:13

Everybody has an opinion And so the bottom line is it's multifaceted and you're watching all these horrible things happen and it's easy to get stuck in the poor me, poor me, my life sucks, it's always going to suck mentality, but you don't have to stay there and you didn't stay there And the things that happened to you were amazing. But if you could just share a little bit about what you've learned from Richard Tadeshi's work about, like are you just an outlier? Were you just the one guy who, like, got it all together after divorce and figured it out and is rocking and rolling and really leading a fulfilling life? Or is this really possible for people who have had especially a bad divorce?

Andrew Hatherley Guest23:02

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there And you talked about when you're going through divorce. There's a saying in the legal community that whereas the criminal justice system sees people on their best behavior in court And we're talking about people who may have tattoos saying nasty things on their forehead but they go into court with a suit and tie and they're yes sir, no sir The divorce world sees pretty normal, good people on their worst behavior And part of that is the is the woe is me. That's part of the whole process as well, as well as anger and resentment, all those things. So I think, moving out of that, getting out of that, there's a period of relief and then there's maybe a transitionary period of questioning. But if I’ve seen, I’m not the only instance for sure. I mean I know people who've enjoying very happy lives moving forward after divorce.

24:05

And I want to branch out a little bit from Tedeschi because I think positive psychology is full of tools that we can use to help ourselves going forward. And I know if any of our listeners are familiar with the work of either Martin Seligman, who wrote a book called Flourish. I know I was been strongly influenced by Scott Barry Kaufman's book Transcend And I did a course with him on self-actualization. Certainly, i think the work of Jordan Peterson the psychologist has been very important. I know he can be a polarizing figure politically but as a psychologist he's done some important work with respect to growth. And I think the key is we think we understand ourselves, but when we go through this very difficult process we start to question it a little bit, and I think that's a good thing, because there are tools out there that I use that really help me focus on building myself back up, and I think particularly of the Big Five personality test, which is much more accepted among the psychological community than some other psychological tests. I mean, i used to be a Myers-Briggs fan And I still.

Karen Covy Host25:34

Back in the day.

Andrew Hatherley Guest25:36

I kind of think Myers-Briggs is kind of like the astrology of personality tests, although I still play with it a lot. I’m an INTJ and I have the INTJ characteristics, but I think the Big Five personality test is much more in-depth understanding of our personality. And there's also a tool called the Via Strengths Finder which I think is very useful because it focuses on our core strengths And I think that's what we need to build on going forward. And so You know this may be controversial, but a lot of people say follow your passion, follow your bliss. Yes, i get that, but if you can incorporate your passion and your bliss to what you're good at, you're much more likely to be successful. And so and I think Cal Newport as well I love sharing all these books and things that I’ve read.

26:38

He wrote a book called So Good They Can't Ignore You, and he expands on this idea of it's not enough to follow your bliss. I mean, if my bliss was to be a ballet dancer, i think it would end in tears or go back to playing hockey. You know, i only played roller hockey. If you put me on skates, it would not be a good situation. So what am I good at?

27:01

And if I can incorporate the things that bring passion to my life into what I’m actually good at. It's much more likely to be positive And I’m all about trying to get a positive circle cycle going as opposed to a vicious cycle, a positive cycle. Now, my life is not perfect, believe me, but and you know, i haven't been to the gym in two weeks and I’m getting grumpy. Well, I’ve had a cough and it's been annoying, but if you can get, try and trigger a positive cycle as opposed to a negative cycle, And I found that getting out of my head was a big factor in that. There's a term called Helper's Eye. Have you ever heard the term Helper's Eye?

Karen Covy Host27:51

No, I have not.

Andrew Hatherley Guest27:52

It's funny. I used it a couple of weeks ago as helping my mother-in-law put her TV on the wall And I remember driving home with my wife afterwards and think well, that felt good, I’ve got a bit of a helper's eye. I installed my mother-in-law's TV set. But also get this from the divorce workshops as well, because people come in and you know, they're.

28:14

You can see the weight of the world on their shoulders And just disabusing them of some crazy ideas that might have been given by their sister or their brother or their drinking buddy about what's going to happen in divorce. You can see the relief coming over them. It's still a lot of work to do, But that getting out of your head and as an introvert and an only child, believe me, I’ve spent a lot of time in my side of my head But I found that getting out of that is probably a good recipe for feeling better about one's life.

Karen Covy Host28:51

You know that brings us full circle back to what you were saying before about how the lifestyle changes make such a big difference, and I think that's not. That's something that not a lot of people talk about in the context of divorce. It's like, hey, I’ve already got enough things going on, i don't need to worry about getting enough sleep and eating right and diet and all those things. But it all ties together And to your point, what you just said. You know getting out and going to the gym helps you get out of your own head, helping other people. You know that that gives you a sense the helpers high. I hadn't heard the term, but the idea is you're going to feel better when you're focused on something that's not you and your misery.

Andrew Hatherley Guest29:37

Yes, yes, it's so important And I know it can sound overwhelming, so I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the book that's been at the top of the bestseller list for the last Lord knows how many years, and I think it's clear as atomic habits. And he talks about just develop one good habit, and let's say it's waking up early. Okay, so waking up early with a good, good night's sleep Okay, so you've had a good night's sleep. What's something positive that can build on that? Well, maybe taking a walk. So maybe you can build on that. Maybe two or three days a week You don't have to go to the gym, you can just lift weights in your garage, because ultimately it's that weight resistance. I think that really gets the body and mind working, releasing all the chemicals in a positive way, and these things just kind of build in each other. Good night's sleep can build on exercise, which can build on. Well, i don't wanna have an Egg McMuffin for breakfast after I’ve woken up early and gotten some exercise. So let's eat a healthy breakfast And then we find we have more energy during the day, and so it's a positive cycle versus a potentially negative cycle. I mean, I’ll give you an anecdote just to what you were saying. About.

30:58

A year after my divorce, I was feeling still feeling pretty depressed and I mentioned it to my doctor And a lot of our listeners would not be surprised that the doctor's solution for this sense was this depression was well, we can do this. And they all end with sin, right? Something sin, something that would or I think that's it, or 10, or sin. Anyway, you know what I’m talking about anti-depressant. And I thought, and I kind of made a joke at that time And I said to him hey, doc, shouldn't you have said something like diet and exercise? Cause he didn't.

31:36

And I guess he thought that I wanted anti-depressant, but I didn't. I just wanted to get his opinion. And so ultimately I said no, you know, I’m gonna pass on that. Give me a couple of months with diet and exercise and see how that goes. And maybe I knew that in my head all along, maybe I just wanted confirmation. But you can see how a reliance on alcohol or drugs can lead to a negative cycle versus the potential positive. Now, I’m not a doctor and some people need medication. So you know, always, you know, go with your physicians recommendations, but if possible, you know it's best to go in a way that the positive habits build on one another.

Karen Covy Host32:23

Absolutely, and I think that what you're saying is a good example. And, of course, you know there's a place for medication, 100%, but it's not the only solution. I think is the point you're trying to make, and what's important for people to hear is that you can have a negative cycle or you could have a positive cycle, and the difference between the two is you, which one are you going to choose? Because it is a choice, people have a tendency, especially in a negative situation and divorce is negative, i mean straight up, right, but in that kind of situation, we all have a tendency to go oh, poor me, poor me, where's? you know?

33:06

I need a drink, I need another glass of wine, I might, you know, whatever your drug of choice is now, and nowadays there are plenty to choose from, right? So? and you stay on the couch and you eat poorly and you watch Netflix and you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's okay to do those kinds of things when you're in the depths of your divorce, once in a while, for like a day, right, but when one day leads to two, leads to 12, leads to months, leads to years, i mean, now you've got that negative spiral going down, and what you're an example of is. It doesn't have to be that way.

Andrew Hatherley Guest33:43

It can go the opposite direction. You want to try to develop an addiction to feeling good, but to feeling good through your own. What's the word Your own there's a fancy word for it your own actions. And let's face it, it feels so much better to, i would imagine, because I’ve never taken diet pills or anything like that. But I imagine it feels so much better to get fit or fitter. Let's say I would say I’m fitter or not fit of your own, from your own work. Then it is limbo or that sort of thing.

Karen Covy Host34:25

Right and you know what. The other thing that I want to point out, that you've spurred an idea in me, is I’ve worked with so many people and so many clients going through a divorce who lack confidence. They say you know what? I’ve been in a difficult marriage for X number of years and it's just worn me down And they don't believe in themselves anymore And they say what am I gonna do? I’m just a mess. No, you're not just a mess to your point. By doing the diet and the exercise and the lifestyle things  that are not easy necessarily to do, especially to start if you haven't been used to doing that all of a sudden you make those changes and then that makes you feel good about yourself. You've accomplished something hard and that starts to feed the virtuous cycle and take you in a whole different direction.

Andrew Hatherley Guest35:17

So You know exactly, and I just wanted to add there, because I think one thing I forgot to mention before is I had tried for many years I started smoking again in 2008. And I tried several times from 2008 to 2017, 2018 to quit smoking, and so I moved from cigarettes to vape, but I ultimately sensed that vape wasn't good for me either. But it was only until 2019, and I think it was a natural culmination of doing other things that led me to quit smoking, but I quit entirely. And the funny thing is, there's something that goes on in our bodies and our minds with respect to cravings, and so we may sit at the sofa with chips and dip and a beer every night, but there are ways that we can eliminate those cravings.

36:19

And I haven't craved a cigarette maybe once or twice in the last four years, and before that many times, many times, and I keep hoping that. You know I don't think about cigarettes very often, fortunately, but when I remember and I’m proud of the fact that I haven't had a cigarette or vape for that or vape nothing for four years, I’m thinking, wow. I think that was just a natural outgrowth of the physical and psychological improvements that were put into effect by simple changes like not eating after seven o'clock at night, or even six o'clock at night, because you get a better sleep certainly not drinking after six o'clock at night And, just as you said, became ultimately a positive cycle.

Karen Covy Host37:07

That is awesome. Well before, i just want to shift gears here. Before we wrap this up and talk about your podcast, tell me how you know, what was the genesis of that, and if people are interested in great divorce, what are they going to find or hear on your podcast?

Andrew Hatherley Guest37:24

We cover all the ranges of life on the great divorce podcast. As a matter of fact, the most recent episode was the second part of an interview I did with dating and love coach Maria Spears, who I think you know.

Karen Covy Host37:38

Yeah, I do, I do. She was on this podcast too.

Andrew Hatherley Guest37:41

Oh, terrific. So we talked about dating after great divorce. There's an episode where I talk about social security and great divorce and mortgage lending. So you asked a question about reverse mortgages and I mentioned social security. Go to those podcasts. We've got experts talking about talking about those things in much greater detail. We talk about mediation and collaborative divorce, alternatives to the litigious process which is so harmful both emotionally and financially. You can find on my website transcend retirement net. There's the podcast page and it's on all the podcast directories. Oh, it's out there.

Karen Covy Host38:28

This has been so wonderful. You have been a wealth of not just information but inspiration, So thank you so much for being here. Can you tell our listeners where there's where the best places to find you? where can they find you?

Andrew Hatherley Guest38:43

And I’ll say thank you for that, that compliment, because I’m a believer that the best thing that anybody can do for another person is to inspire them to be the best version of themselves. So I appreciate that. And people can find me transcend retirement net is my web page for my business essentially working with people as a financial planner, financial advisor after divorce. They can also find me on wiserdivorcesolutions.com. That's my CDFA business where I work with people before and during divorce And just look up the great divorce podcast on any of the podcast directories And that's gray with an a.

Karen Covy Host39:24

I know there's a big controversy. Is it gray with an e, gray with an? a turns out? I think it depends on which side of the pond you live on, so to speak. Yeah, the other direction. But I you know, it just is what it is.

Andrew Hatherley Guest39:37

It's a conflict for me because I was born in England and so I think it's. I think it's an e over there, but the work, the research that I did seems to show that a is a little bit more prevalent.

Karen Covy Host39:48

That makes sense. So again, Andrew, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And for those of you who out there list, or who are out there listening or watching or consuming this podcast, and whatever way works for you, what I can say is, if you like it, if you enjoy what you hear and you want to hear more, give this episode a thumbs up, like subscribe to the channel, subscribe to the podcast, and we'll talk to you again next time.