Episode Description - How To Spot Cyberstalking In Your Divorce
What if your ex could secretly listen to your private conversations, track your every move, and even manipulate evidence against you — all without being anywhere near you? It’s called cyberstalking, and it’s happening in divorce cases more and more.
Steven Bradley, a former FBI cybercrime investigator and Amazon bestselling author, reveals how technology is being weaponized in divorce and domestic violence cases.
In this podcast episode, Steven explodes common myths about cyberstalking, including the myth that perpetrators need to be tech experts in order to cyberstalk you. According to Steven, anyone who has basic computer skills and is willing to invest $7 for a computer program can install spyware that clones a phone and will allow your ex to read your texts, listen to you through your phone’s microphone, activate cameras, and track your location in real-time.
The conversation takes an even more chilling turn when Steven discusses deep fake technology and AI manipulation.
If you’ve ever had the feeling that your ex is watching you, or somehow knows exactly what you’re going to do BEFORE you do it, you may not be imagining anything. You may be being cyberstalked.
Check out this whole podcast episode to discover more – AND learn how you can protect yourself.
Show Notes
About Steven
Steven Bradley is an Amazon Best-Selling Author, International Trainer, Legal & Technology Consultant, and nationally recognized expert in law enforcement’s response to intimate partner violence, stalking, and technology abuse. A former FBI cybercrime investigator, he has led international trainings for over 28 years and consults with courts, law enforcement, and legal professionals. Steven now serves with Our Family Wizard, promoting safe, technology-supported communication for separated families. His work bridges the gap between investigative practice and trauma-informed approaches, helping communities respond more effectively to domestic violence and digital threats in legal settings.
Connect with Steven
You can connect with Steven on LinkedIn at Steven Bradley. And find out how to streamline your parenting schedule, shared expenses and communication with Our Family Wizard.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Steven
- Technology-facilitated abuse is rampant. Abusers often use spyware, AirPods, and cloned phones to stalk or monitor partners—no technical expertise needed, just basic internet access.
- Spyware Indicators: Signs include rapidly draining battery, increased data usage, and warm devices when idle. A phone bill audit can reveal spyware activity.
- Spyware can be identified by phone carriers or tools like Avast or Certo. Factory resets don’t work unless the device is completely disconnected from old accounts.
- Safe Communication Tips: For confidential conversations, turning a phone off doesn’t guarantee safety—use airplane mode instead to fully disable tracking.
- Unlike regular apps, Our Family Wizard, a court-recognized co-parenting platform, ensures unalterable communication records, metadata-free photo sharing, and a built-in tone meter to reduce conflict.
- Offenders have used AI to impersonate others in video calls, even making victims attend court-ordered programs on their behalf using face-swapping tech.
- Many law enforcement officers lack training in cyberstalking laws, which only require proof of "substantial emotional distress" and a documented pattern—not physical threats.
- Metadata Risks: Shared photos often include hidden location data, which can be exploited by abusers. OFW removes this automatically to protect users’ privacy.
- Abuse cuts across all demographics, including affluent, educated communities—often hidden due to stigma and silence.
- Proactive protection is crucial; victims should not wait for escalation. Using verified tools and experts early can prevent harm and strengthen legal standing.
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Transcript
How To Spot Cyberstalking In Your Divorce
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
cyberstalking, divorce support, domestic violence
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Steven Bradley
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the extreme pleasure of talking with Steven Bradley. Steven is an Amazon bestselling author and nationally recognized expert in law enforcement's response to intimate partner violence, stalking and technology abuse. A former FBI cybercrime investigator, he has led international trainings for over 28 years and consults with courts, law enforcement and legal professionals. Steven now serves with Our Family Wizard, promoting safe, technology-supported communication for separated families. His work bridges the gap between investigative practice and trauma-informed approaches, helping communities respond more effectively to domestic violence and digital threats in legal settings. Steven, welcome to the show.
Steven Bradley Guest
01:30
Good morning Karen. Thank you for having me.
Karen Covy Host
01:32
I am so excited to have this conversation. I know you and I met a couple of weeks ago, or maybe a month or so ago, and when you started telling me what you did, I was just exploding because I knew I had to have you on this podcast. What you do is so, so important, but let's start with cybercrimes, cyberstalking, cyber everything. What does any of that have to do with divorce?
Steven Bradley Guest
01:59
Well, it's funny you ask. It was great meeting you. I'm glad we got this opportunity to sit down and have this conversation. So when cybercrimes, we talk about divorce especially, divorces are typically contentious anyway, some can be amicable, but sometimes they're very contentious.
02:13
When it comes to cyber related crimes, whether it's divorce or not, there is a global theme of mental health meaning she's crazy, he's crazy, there's no way possibly I could do that. I can't listen to her phones, I can't change her thermostat. That's something they saw on TV. Well, that's not necessarily true. Let's think about divorce. Let's think about domestic abuse.
02:35
We've all played that 20 questions game when we first started dating. What's your favorite color? What high school do you go to? What's your favorite type of music? What? What high school do you go to? What's your favorite type of music? What are those? Those are answers to security questions, because I know so much information about you. You can change your password to your account, but I may be able to get access to your accounts just because I can answer your security questions. So it's not a mental health crisis, but that's what's often made out to think. On the flip side, the offender side or the bad actor.
03:04
I want everybody to understand that, out of working with thousands of offenders worldwide, less than 10% have any kind of computer background at all. These are not computer experts. These are not Best Buy Geek Squad members. These are what we call keyboard warriors. They simply Google how do I stalk my partner? There's YouTube videos. There's places like Reddit you can go to get all types of resources. So don't think for a second we're dealing with any type of a smarter class. They just Google it.
Karen Covy Host
03:34
Whoa, I'm so glad you said that, because so many people, if I ask them about their spouse and how tech savvy are they, they're like, oh, he can't figure out anything, she doesn't know what's going on, or blah, blah, blah. But I've had so many clients over the years who have said things like he knows where I am, like I swear he's following me somehow. I don't see a car. But is that a thing? And how can you know? If somebody thinks that they are being followed, or cyber stalked, I guess you would call it? What do they do?
Steven Bradley Guest
04:11
Well, that's a good point. A lot of people automatically default to GPS or air tags or tiles or some type of a tracker. But the one thing that people forget about is our cell phones. We take our cell phones everywhere we go. We take them to the bathroom. What better way to track somebody than through a cell phone? And before we get to the cell phone, be honest with you the number one tracker, especially in family places, is not even a tracker or a phone at all. It's your AirPods. It's your Bluetooth headphones.
Karen Covy Host
What?
Steven Bradley Guest
If you open your purse and you find an Apple AirTag inside your purse? You know somebody's tracking your locations. But if you open your purse and you find my headphones in your purse, that have a find my feature babe. I'd be looking everywhere for my headphones, not my tracker. So again, it's very inconspicuous. But getting back to the phone, that's the fun part. There's all types of technologies and softwares out there again that they find on Google or YouTube that allows you to clone somebody's phone. So you get exact access, everything they receive, everything they do. You get access on your phone or on your desktop. Wherever they go anywhere in the world, you can activate the microphone and listen to their surroundings, because I know, Karen. I know you've had clients tell you. They're listening to me, they know my conversations. I can turn on your camera. I can see your surroundings. I can read all your text messages, emails.
Karen Covy Host
05:33
Wait, wait, wait. You're blowing me away here. You can turn on my camera to my phone.
Steven Bradley Guest
05:40
Absolutely, absolutely. It's funny that you say that because a couple of years ago, apple first responded to this and they did a bad job, in my opinion, of letting the public know what they were for. So, if you remember, we started seeing these colored dots in the right hand corner of our screen. There's a green dot for your microphone and an orange dot for your I'm sorry, greens for your camera, oranges for your microphone. So if you're on your phone, you'll notice that there's a dot on. Well, if I just touch my phone to check the time and my microphone dots on, somebody is listening to my communications. So that's one way they can combat and let you know. But again, they did a horrible job of letting the general public know what those actually meant. But yes, I can actually do that.
Karen Covy Host
06:22
Wow. So if somebody because I know I've been in court so many times where it's a he said, she said and one person's trying to make the other one look bad or look to your point, look crazy especially the person who maybe is a little crazy they're always interested in making the other person look worse. So if somebody's thinking he knows where I'm at, he or she knows where I'm at, they know my conversations, they seem, they always seem to be one step ahead of me. What's the first thing that they should do to try to figure this out and combat that and take their life back?
Steven Bradley Guest
07:06
So the program I just mentioned is called Cell Phone Spyware and it costs a whopping $7. It's not very expensive and in some cases it can be free, depending on what company. There's several companies that do this. So when I tell people, when I have a client come to me and they say you know what, he's listening to me, he follows me or she follows me. They're always at the Walmart, the park, they always show up where I am, they know my conversations. I said, okay, let's look at your cell phone bill. What we want to look at is the data usage. We want to go back about four or five months and look at the data to use today.
07:38
If there's spyware on your phone, your data is going to significantly increase. It may double in some cases, because every time you send me a message it sends a duplicate message to the bad guy. So, if you're working twice as hard having conversations about battery life, does your battery need to be charged more often? Well, yeah, it used to last all day. Now by lunchtime I have to plug my phone in. Well, because your phone again is working twice as hard. We've all been in that long phone call where our phone's been kind of warm to touch afterwards. If I pick up my phone off the desk, my phone's warm to touch. I haven't been on it, but somebody may have been going through my programs, my files, my photographs or simply just listen to my conversation through my microphone. So there's all kinds of things we can actually look at when it comes to that.
08:25
If you do suspect spyware on your phone or you're in a situation like this, there's a couple of ways that you can combat this or kind of help out. Let me give you both sides of this so you can go to your cell phone carrier Verizon, t-mobile, whoever you use. Their techs are very knowledgeable and are very versed in spyware. They can actually scan your phone and they can go through your cloud and make sure there's nothing in there to keep you safe. If they do find something, I highly suggest that you actually gather that information before it's deleted for evidence purposes, in case you may have a criminal case for cyber stalking or all kinds of other things we can talk about later, but they can actually remove that. But this is the caveat to that. If you're in a situation that may be abusive and you know that there's spyware on there and he sees that you go to Verizon because he's tracking your locations and now he can no longer track you. That's when abuse can escalate.
09:27
So there are some programs at home that allows your apps you can download to identify and remove spyware. One of the antivirus anti-malware companies out there is called Avast A-V-A-S-T and I have no affiliation with them at all, but they have a free spyware scanner and remover tool. There are other programs like Certo and things like that that are paid apps like $5 a month and they will monitor your device. But again, I have no relationship with them at all. But find one that's good for you or your situation, your scenario. Because again we know privacy is safety and you may not be able to go to the phone store.
10:02
You can do a factory reset on your phone, but this is where everybody kind of it's a slippery slope. If you connect that phone to the same iCloud, the same email address, it's automatically going to reinstall. You have to painstakingly manually input all your information all over again. I've had victims bring me brand new cell phones, ziploc baggies for brand new phones. You can't simply just get a new phone because what does the cell phone company do. As soon as you get a new phone, they want to transfer all your information to your new phone. To help you out, all they're doing is transferring the spyware just to that new phone as well. So it's a vicious circle that never goes away. So the best way is to identify it and just have the professionals remove it.
Karen Covy Host
10:49
Wow, that is. You're blowing my mind. You really are. Especially because my gut reaction would have been well, just go get a new phone. But clearly that doesn't help the problem. Is it ever a good idea to get like a new phone but keep it totally separate? Like new number, new phone, new everything.
Steven Bradley Guest
11:08
And I have a lot of clients that do that. They'll get a burner phone, a prepaid phone or it's just separate phone and they don't. They don't mix them together, send no different email addresses, different iClouds, and that's okay because, as in theory, that device is a clean device. So you, yes, you can do that, but it's a pain to carry around two devices as well. If you do have a device that you suspect spyware is on or someone's listening to you and you want to have a private, confidential conversation. So I'm going to come into your office, Karen, and we're going to have this private, confidential, privileged conversation about my situation. And I suspect, and I think, that my spouse is listening to me or my partner is listening to me. What can you do? How can you have that? We're not going to tell them to leave the phone in the car because one they may have Ubered there or two that may be their only sense of security. This is my blankie, my pasty, my will be. This is what keeps me safe. So we're going to bring it in there. But again, this is what they're tracking, this is what they're listening to. So a lot of people will automatically assume that you can just turn the phone off. We're just going to turn the phone off, we'll be fine.
12:12
Well, unfortunately today, when you turn your phone off, your phone is still on. That's why they took away the ability to remove the batteries from your phones. That's why they're all one unit. Now it runs in what's called Q mode. The best way to actually have a private, confidential conversation is to put your phone in airplane mode. It turns off every single antenna on your phone. Yes, you can turn on your Bluetooth, you can turn on your Wi-Fi, but as a whole it turns everything off. So, make sure that everything's off and then you can have that private, confidential conversation. And then you can turn it back on as soon as you leave. You don't have to wait for your phone to boot back up, but it keeps you safe.
Karen Covy Host
12:48
What about and this is very rudimentary, but this is going to show you my level of knowledge about this stuff what if you just like cover the microphone, like I know, a lot of people have cell phone holders where they'll cover the microphone. Does that work?
Steven Bradley Guest
13:04
Not really, because unfortunately the microphones and technology so technology is a dual-edged sword. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, sometimes it can be both. But the microphones and cameras are so sensitive today they can pick up muted noises and things like that. So I would just suggest throwing it into airplane mode and have your conversation. The follow-up to that is because I get asked a lot of these questions is well, can I just leave my phone in airplane mode? No, you can't, because unfortunately it's a brick. If you leave your phone in airplane mode, it won't work because it turned off every single antenna, so you can't do that. It's a moment in time. So it's while you're there having that private conversation or your locations, you want to turn off whatever that's where it is, Turn it on and then turn it right back off. So that way you have that moment in time of safety.
Karen Covy Host
13:52
Wow. So it sounds to me, I don't know, I'm just I'm thinking like a lawyer here, right? So if a client comes into me and we're having a conversation, that seems to me like it would be a decent question to ask in the beginning and have, because the client might not know this, might not think about it. It might be something for a lawyer to say hey, why don't you turn your cell phone in airplane mode?
Steven Bradley Guest
14:16
Right. Every time I do an interview to your point. Every time it's whether criminal or civil, it doesn't matter. I always pretty much start the same way. What you're about to tell me is very important. I want to stay between you and I. I'm going to put my phone in airplane mode and I ask you to do the same thing. I've never been told no. But if they question you just say hey Siri or hey Google, and watch it pop up. I don't even want Siri to be able to hear us, so we're just going to disable that feature so nobody, not even Siri, can listen to us. And again, I've never been told no. And then I can confidently start my interview with that individual and know that it's going to be confidential and safe.
Karen Covy Host
14:53
I love that. That is amazing. But now let's talk about the intersection of cybersecurity and having safe conversations and Our Family Wizard, because I know you work with them. Now, why Our Family Wizard? What does it do that I can't do myself?
Steven Bradley Guest
15:19
It's funny. I get that question a lot. How do you go from a law enforcement agency to a co-parenting tool, co-parenting app? Well, we know that divorce is contentious, and I do talk so much about negative technologies as we just did with, like spyware and locations and communication. Well, our family wizard actually combats a lot of those things we see in courts today.
15:37
Today, there are several free apps and websites you can go to to change and manipulate communication. I can change caller ID. I can change the text message. I can create fake text messages, print them off and bring them to the lawyer or the judge as if it was what actually happened. I can have them time delayed.
15:56
Well, Our Family Wizard has a messaging system too, but it's a closed system, which means there's no outside influence. You can't use a special app, you can't do anything. So you know 100% that the communication is authentic, it's 100% real, it's accurate. One of the things, as you know as a lawyer, is accuracy is one of the most important things in courts. We have to be able to discern whether this evidence is real, whether this communication is real. This tool allows us to do that and be assured that everything from the calendar to the financial transactions, to even like the homeroom teacher in the info bank or the pant size, shirt size, belt size of the child is all in one location.
16:37
We also today have concerns with AI, artificial intelligence, and we see things on the media and TV shows about deep fakes where I can put your face on top of my face and make a phone call or a FaceTime or use your voice. Well, within our friendly wizard, we have a voice and video feature as well, so you can have a FaceTime call and know that the person you're talking to is actually the person. So if you're having virtual parenting time, you know it's the child. It's not the parent pretending to be a child.
Karen Covy Host
17:07
Oh, don't even that. I never even thought of that.
Steven Bradley Guest
17:11
Absolutely.
Karen Covy Host
17:12
A parent Okay, I'm just my mind's blown here. A parent could sit here and be FaceTiming with who they think is their child, but it's really the other parent who's got the technology that makes them look and sound like their kid.
Steven Bradley Guest
17:26
Absolutely, I can. Actually right now, I can transpose your face on top of my face and I can become you. We can roll reverse in this interview right now and I can become you. Change my voice to your voice and everything.
Karen Covy Host
17:37
You could do that right now.
Steven Bradley Guest
17:38
Well, yeah, it would take me a minute to set that up, but yes, we could actually do that if we prepared for that. But yes, that is the technology available today. Unfortunately, these programs are readily available. So there's been situations where, for example, a batterers intervention course, where it's a domestic abuse situation, where a gentleman was ordered to 52 weeks of batters intervention courses Well, it was her fault, of course, that he had to go in the first place. So he transposed his face on top of her face and made her sit through the classes because it was her fault. So that's how this stuff became more aware, or brought more awareness to the court system, into the legal system, as to how offenders are using this technology. So we at Our Family Wizard, we want to eliminate that. We want to make sure it's a closed system voice video. You can get transcripts if you want to. So we know virtual pairing time is a real thing today.
Karen Covy Host
18:29
Oh yeah, for sure it is. But I've got another question. Just, I mean the lawyer in me. You're like waking up the lawyer in me, for sure. So let's say I have a client who suspects that something like this is happening, that their ex or their spouse is using technology to mess with them. We'll just put it that way as a lawyer, how can I prove or disprove that? Do I have to get their phone? Do I have to like? How can I tell if it's real or it's fake?
Steven Bradley Guest
19:00
Unfortunately, this is where you have to involve an expert because you're right, it's hard to tell today because these programs are so good, but you have to examine the metadata.
19:10
You have to examine a lot of different features of the phone, possibly the communication, the email headers, to make sure that the IP addresses line up and it's not coming from and going to the same IP address.
19:24
There's a lot that experts can do in that case and fortunately or unfortunately fortunately because me, because I'm an expert, but unfortunately for some of the clients, because I know that financial decisions weigh heavily on that is you know these things are getting so complicated. You're almost going to need an expert today to do some of this stuff for, like AI or deep fakes or to be approved. I mean, universities today are having a hard time reading term papers to see if a term paper is legitimate or if chatgpt created it. So just imagine that on a bigger scale, for evidentiary or you're making a big decision on custody of the children who owns the home, whatever the case may be. So when you have skin in the game, when you have something to lose, sometimes these offenders will stop at nothing to timely plate the case.
Karen Covy Host
20:16
Wow, that's crazy, and I can see how OFW, because it's a closed system would prevent that. But let me tell you so, when I'm talking to people, a lot of times what I hear is oh, you know, we get along fine, I don't need it. So what do you say about that?
Steven Bradley Guest
20:36
Well, and then we hear that a lot too is well, we'll just use a Google calendar, we'll just use text messages, things like that. But again it goes back to the point where these can be deleted. They can be manipulated with our family wizard from the day that you sign up to the day that you know forever and ever, actually your information is going to be there. We know that divorces especially, you know kind of ebb and flow. Sometimes you may get six months in. You're like this is too expensive, this is damaging the kids, let's just get back together, we'll try to figure it out. And then, six months later, you hate each other again. You won't go through the process. Well, our Friendly Wizard allows you to come back six months later as if you've never left. Your information is all there, nothing is deleted, no communication, no calendaring. It's all still there. So Google Calendar won't do that. Your message is again I can delete, I can manipulate, I can spoof regular communications.
21:29
So why take the risk? Why take the risk in using a free tool when this tool ensures accountability, speeds up litigation and actually promotes healthy communication? We have a feature called Tone Meter AI, and I know I talked a little bit negative about AI, but this is a good, positive AI. So when you write a message, I hate your guts. It's going to pop up and say you might want to say this instead. This sounds a little bit better. We say all the time that we're for the children, not for the conflict. We're here for the kids. We want to make sure the kids have healthy parents that can communicate and get through this with as least harm as possible. So that's why it's important.
Karen Covy Host
22:09
Yeah, no, I've been a big fan of OFW forever, I mean as long as I, as long as you guys have been around and I've been doing this, and both of those are a long time. And so because and that tonometer is a big deal, because a lot of times when my, my clients are caught in the moment, you might not realize, like how off what you're saying is or how it could be taken in a different way. Because that's the other problem with technology, especially in texting, when you can't hear a voice and see, you know, pick up visual cues on somebody, things can sound differently than how you meant them.
Steven Bradley Guest
22:53
Right, correct, and that's just it. It can be passive, aggressive, it can be there's no tone, we don't know what the tone is and you're just saying because you're so upset with each other. I know what they meant by that, I know what that was supposed to be, that was, you know whatever this kind of takes that, that out of it. It stops the he said, she said, or the back and forth. You know it kind of mitigates, mitigates that and again promotes healthy communication.
Karen Covy Host
23:19
Okay. So I want to stop, pause for a moment, go back to something that you mentioned before when you talked about metadata, because before we started this, you were talking about how people, how you can look at metadata to see if something is real or not, and how people can even manipulate pictures, and that kind of thing. Like if you send me, if I as a lawyer, if a client sends me a picture of, oh, here's what my spouse, he says he can't walk and he just climbed a mountain, and here's the picture, and blah, blah, blah, how can I know if the picture is real or not?
Steven Bradley Guest
23:52
So there's different ways to look at metadata, and metadata is very important. So there's metadata, exit data. They're pretty much universal, kind of go back and forth. So to give a quick history lesson, it really started with the photography industry where these digital cameras came on the scene and they really wanted to embed inside a photograph what type, what the shutter speed was, what kind of film was used, what kind of camera was used, so that it kind of gives a record of that photograph or that artwork, if you will. Well, that's kind of expounded to our cell phones, to pretty much every camera. Today, a 20-hour digital camera from Walmart can actually possibly have metadata built inside it.
24:31
So where this really comes into play and again this is now a good point for our family wizard so in these divorce cases, you may be willing to share or you're going to be ordered from the courts to share, you know, photographs of a birthday, a graduation, some type of momentous milestone in your child's life. Well, you also may be in a situation where privacy is needed. Privacy is safety. You may be in a confidential domestic violence shelter. You may be staying at a friend's house, a sister's house. You don't want your co-parent knowing where you live. But if you send them a photograph of your child's birthday, inside that location, inside that photograph, is the metadata that includes the locations of where you were. I simply take that, put it into Google Maps or Google Earth and I get a map to where you are. So that's where this becomes harmful.
25:29
Our family wizard. When you share photographs through our journal programs like social media, we scrub the metadata because we know privacy is safety. We know that when you want to tell your parent where you want to be, that's when you're going to tell them they shouldn't be able to get it through a technology platform or program. So, to answer your question, I can go back to your first point. How do we find this metadata? There's programs out there, there's metadata in exit data type programs, but you can simply just take a photograph, save it to your desktop or even on your phone. If you're on your desktop, you just right-click on it and then click on information or properties and it's going to pop up. It's going to show you an iPhone. It's going to show you all the metadata inside that your phone. If you have a photograph in your phone gallery, just swipe up from it and you'll see the metadata below as the location, the date and timestamp, all those things.
Karen Covy Host
26:11
Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, I'm just like I'm exploding here.
Steven Bradley Guest
26:15
It's a lot of information.
Karen Covy Host
26:16
So the metadata does it actually give you, like city, state, street address, or is it somehow encrypted or coded or it depends on the device.
Steven Bradley Guest
26:29
Most of our cell phones will actually give you the actual address of where you were. Most of them are latitude and longitude coordinates. So that's where you take the latitude and longitude and you just put it into Google Earth or Google Maps and it actually will translate it for you and show you again, straight view map to your house, what car is sitting in the driveway. So that's how people find that. The tools that are out there, the metadata tools, they're a little bit more. You know you need a lot more information. It's more exclusive for finding certain things and most of your private investigators or investigators in general will use those type of tools. But the layperson, the layman person, can just right click on it or swipe up and see it.
27:12
So going back to that point, I guess I can continue this. I can talk forever, sorry. If you are in a situation where you are sharing photographs, either through a text message or social media or whatever you use, go into your camera settings, even if it's not just your phone, your phone or your regular DSLR camcorder, whatever phone, whatever kind of video or camera device you're using and turn off the locations inside the settings so that way your phone or your, excuse me, your camera, does not actually record your locations. So you can still, you can still send a photograph, but they're not going to know where you are, and that's, that's, you know, the key point there.
Karen Covy Host
27:52
Wow, I didn't even know. I didn't. Well, I didn't know any of this. Okay, We'll just. I'll just put that out there. I didn't know any of this. Um but so where? Let's talk for a minute at the intersection of where this stuff becomes a crime, right, like if, if you think that your spouse or ex or anybody is stalking you, can you just go to the police?
Steven Bradley Guest
28:19
That's actually very interesting. So in a perfect world, yes, you can. But what I find even a former law enforcement officer as myself that a lot of agencies and law enforcement officers don't understand the cyber stalking statute themselves. And these laws are nothing new. They first came on scene. I think California first law was in 2008. And the most the rest of the country adopted it, usually about 2012.
28:43
And the burden? So people have this preconceived notion for stalking I have to physically follow you somewhere. I have to follow you from the bar to home or your office somewhere, and I have to be this like creeper making, like threats I'm going to hurt you, I'm going to kill you, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, but that's not so. So the statute is very specific In most states. The same or similar language is in all 50 states where the burden for cyber stalking is substantial emotional distress. That's it. Define that for me, because you may love spiders and I hate spiders, they cause me substantial emotional distress. But if I can articulate and document what's called a course of conduct, which is usually two or more events. So I got friend requests, I'm getting text messages, I'm getting some type of course of conduct two or more events of something that's causing me sleepless nights, emotional distress which, again, is different for every individual out there. You may have enough for a cyberstalking case.
29:45
If there are threats or credible threats associated now you may have a felony cyberstalking case. So most cyberstalking this is why I say a lot of agencies kind of miss this is, yeah, in some parts it's a misdemeanor, it's not a big deal, but there are cases where that quickly turns into a felony. Also, the law is very broad. Where it's not just you. Let's just say that you start dating someone new, you get a new boyfriend or a new girlfriend and I make threats to them, I go on Facebook and say I'm going to kick their butt. Guess what? I'm now cyberstalked. Making threats against another individual can be cyberstalking. I go on as rant on social media, on Facebook, wherever my wife or my husband is the biggest piece of trash, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Defaming another person is also cyberstalking. So the law is very, very broad. So people don't get tunnel vision when it comes to cyberstalking. So, yes, you may have a criminal case to go along with your divorce case or whatever case you're involved in.
Karen Covy Host
30:47
Whoa, okay. So but here's the question, because you said in a perfect world. And the reason that I'm asking this question is because I happen to know someone friend, of a friend who was the victim of cyberstalking to a level that I had no idea somebody could do, like they were turning on and off the you know the thermostat. The security cameras that were for the house were actually turned and watching the people in the house, not the people out of the house. The level was and it was making this person crazy and it wasn't necessarily even in, you know, domestic violence. It wasn't that kind of situation, but it was very real. And the person went to the police and basically the police were like, yeah, there's nothing we can do.
Steven Bradley Guest
31:42
And unfortunately I hear that a lot and it's very frustrating for myself and several other. You know law enforcement officers that do what I do and really understand the statues. So I hear stuff like well, we don't have no jurisdiction on the worldwide web? Well, yes, you do. There's several state and federal statues allows you to do this, or it's the first amendment rights, it's freedom of speech. They can say what they want to say. No, that's not true either. So we have laws for defamation and things like that. It's why we have them. So that's where it gets frustrating.
32:13
But it's not necessarily their fault, and I say this loosely because most of them don't get the training in it. They go to the police academy and they have to learn how to be a police officer in one five-inch three-ring binder and tell them everything about the world, and that's not so. I mean even domestic violence or domestic abuse. It's usually one paragraph inside this textbook of stuff. Well, we know, domestic abuse is huge. There's so many caveats to it.
32:41
We talk about differences like family law and domestic abuse in the intersecting the parallel, because they're very, very similar in divorce cases and in these domestic abuse cases, because all the tools and tactics are the same. One may be abusive, one's not. So there's a lot of parallels there. In family divorces, domestic things like that, there's a lot of unknowns. People are volatile, people are different. You take away my kids whatever Most criminal courts you know you're a bad guy or you're not. I stole it or I didn't. So they're pretty cut and dry. But family is very, very fluid. So you have to have those tools to be able to understand that.
33:20
Unfortunately, most agencies and again this is the world, according to Steven they focus on the wrong things. I can tell you, in my law enforcement career I've seen one kilo of cocaine. I saw domestic abuse or family law or family situations every single day. But they focus on chasing drugs or whatever, which is a horrible problem. Fentanyl is a horrible problem and I'm not trying to minimize that, by no means. But if we had more people focus on these types of situations and really understand it, I think there'd be a lot more accountability held against these offenders. Because they did. They do get away with that, unfortunately.
Karen Covy Host
34:01
Yeah, but you know, and in defense of the police force too, I remember years ago, back in the day, I did a ride along in New York city with the cops and it was always the domestic violence cases when they get the domestic call that they were most concerned about, because that's where they got shot. That's where things happen that shouldn't. That's where good people did really bad things.
Steven Bradley Guest
34:28
Exactly correct.
Karen Covy Host
34:29
And there were a lot of them. I mean, to your point, if you compare the number of, like you know, drug cases or we think somebody's got drugs to how many people are beating on each other. Domestic violence wins hands down and that's not a contest anyone wants to win.
Steven Bradley Guest
34:48
Absolutely, absolutely, and that's what we talk about, like the stats behind it, even it's. That's a whole different conversation, I know. But I always ask people when I do my classes on domestic abuse and technology is how many of you know somebody that has cancer, has been affected with cancer, or just say breast cancer? And almost everybody raises their hand. I'm like, okay, you know, the stat on that is one in eight. How many of you know somebody that's involved in a domestic violence situation? Crickets, maybe one or two people raised their hands. I'm like, why? Because the stat on that is one in three or one in four.
35:20
So if you know somebody's involved in cancer, there's a very good chance. You know somebody's been involved in domestic abuse but nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody wants to. It happens behind closed doors. I don't want to assert myself, it's none of my business. It's a true statistic is if you actually kick a dog, you'll get more jail time than if you kick a woman or a man, whatever it may be, because animal cruelty is automatically a felony, whereas beating your spouse or your partner can be a misdemeanor. It can be a felony. It can be whatever they deem it to be. So that's where the loophole gets, but that's a totally different conversation. So sorry about my tangent, but it is.
Karen Covy Host
35:58
No, but I mean that it's interesting because I just was. Last week I went to a fundraiser for a domestic violence program locally here and what I found so fascinating about the program was that it was in a nice area. I mean, people think of domestic violence as being the poorest of the poor, people who aren't educated, people who don't know any better. I have to tell you that is not what I saw during that program. These were wealthy, educated, very well-appointed people.
Steven Bradley Guest
36:31
I can tell you, in my career, the worst crime scenes I've ever seen have always been white collar type crime scenes. They've been very affluent, very what you would consider. You know, this is what I want to be, it's what I want to aspire to have this income, this home, these cars, whatever. Those are the worst crime scenes I've ever seen in my whole career. They assume, like you said, this, this, this again, misconception of you. Know it's just some NASCAR driving or watching drunk on the weekends, is beating his wife or whatever it may be. But that again is a huge misconception. It's a lot more. It's happening in your own backyard and you don't even realize it.
Karen Covy Host
37:04
So yeah, yeah, that's, wow. All right, let's just let's kind of bring this to a close, because I want to be respectful of your time, but I have to tell you I could sit here for another two hours and ask you questions, because this is just, it's mind-blowing, and I have a feeling that the breadth of the problem is way bigger than most people think it is.
Steven Bradley Guest
37:30
It really is. And we can always do some more follow-ups too, because, again, as you can tell, I'm passionate. I enjoy these conversations, I enjoy what I do and bringing the awareness and bringing the knowledge to your listeners and to so many, because the work's only begun. The work is really. I mean, we talk about technology. Technology changes by the day. I mean you might have got a brand-new cell phone as soon as it came out. Two weeks later it's already out of date. That's just how fast technology moves and, unfortunately, laws cannot keep up with technology as fast as it moves.
38:00
So this is a constantly evolving topic that we have to talk about and we have to bring awareness to. And the one thing I found and that's why I started this podcast that way the one thing I've found is find someone who's going to listen to you Because, again, even a lot of professionals will blow you off as being crazy. This is mental health. There's no way they can do that. They can't change your thermostats, they can't listen to your Alexa yes, sir, I can. So I mean they can educate themselves on that as well. So, yeah, it's a fun topic. So I appreciate we actually had this conversation in every facet that we went in, so it's great.
Karen Covy Host
38:36
We went a lot of different directions, for sure, but I think what I want to just sort of highlight, and what you just said too, is for people who think that they may be the victim of some sort of cybercrime, it makes more sense to prevent what's going to happen. To take like, for example, to use Our Family Wizard, to use the tools that are available to stay safe in the beginning, because judges are human too, and if you take it to them, I got to tell you you've got no offense to my colleagues on the bench, but you know, you've got some 70 or 80 year old person on the bench, but you've got some 70 or 80-year-old person on the bench who's the judge. To think that they're going to understand all the ins and outs of this is kind of naive.
Steven Bradley Guest
39:23
You're absolutely correct. Technology is very generational and we do get in those situations where we have an older person on the bench or whatnot. Even as professionals like ourselves, we have to meet our clients where they're at. You got to remember my generation, generation X. We went to school. We actually had textbooks.
39:41
My first typewriting class was on a typewriter. We didn't have computers, we didn't have tablets, we didn't have cell phones. We're lucky we got a pager. I mean that was cool back then. Our first cell phone came in a bag. So we kind of grew with technology but unfortunately, to your point, some of these people, some of our clients or some of you listening, do not have. You're not tech savvy and you don't have to be. There's professionals out there that are can help you. But meet your client where they're at, meet them. So if it's a millennial or a younger person, yes, they're going to be more tech savvy, maybe smarter than you. That's fine. That's why you can hire a professional, google it and contact me. It's fine. But we will get you to the point where you need to be. But don't take it for face value.
Karen Covy Host
40:24
Yeah, I love that and I think that's the perfect place to call this a wrap. But, Steven, if people are interested in learning more about what you do, if they want to reach out to you, where's the best place that they can find you?
Steven Bradley Guest
40:38
Well, they can always find me at OurFamilyWizard.com. Again, that's a platform. They can check out the platform, how it benefits them. If there's in financial hardship situations, there's fee waivers to help them with the cost of the program. But they can also find me on LinkedIn as well. I'm always available on social media. It's the only social media I actually have and use. So, but yeah, but either way, our family wizard or through LinkedIn, you can reach out that way.
Karen Covy Host
41:00
That is. Thank you so much for everything that you've shared here. This has been an eye opening conversation.
Steven Bradley Guest
41:07
Thank you, I appreciate your time.
Karen Covy Host
41:15
And for those of you out there who are watching or listening, we will have every place that you can find Steven linked up in the show notes. Our Family Wizard will be linked up in the show notes. And just one last plug for them. It's really the gold standard platform for co-parenting communication and just organizing your co-parenting life. It will make your life so much easier. I really encourage you to check it out and, for those of you who are watching or who are listening, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you'd like to hear more episodes just like it, do me a favor, give this a thumbs up like subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
