Episode Description - How Families Can Navigate Kids' Mental Health Issues Better
The hardest truth about addiction and mental health struggles is that families become casualties too. Yet no one talks about their recovery. Lisa Katona Smith, TEDx speaker and the author of Parallel Recovery, has pioneered a unique approach to healing that recognizes families who have kids with mental health or substance abuse issues as the forgotten participants in the recovery process.
What’s even more unique is that Lisa’s approach doesn't depend on whether the struggling person wants to change or not. Instead, Lisa advocates for what she calls "loving better"—a combination of sustainability and connection that allows families to maintain healthy boundaries while staying emotionally present for their struggling loved one.
Through structured reflection, strong communication tools, and addressing the underlying fears that drive reactive parenting, Lisa shows that families can learn to create an environment where healing becomes possible for everyone involved.
If you or anyone you know is a parent who’s trying to navigate the complex terrain of adolescent mental health challenges, this episode can change your world. It emphasizes the importance of curiosity over interrogation, validation over toxic positivity, and the recognition that sometimes the most loving thing parents can do is examine their own triggers and responses rather than focusing solely on changing their child's behavior.
Show Notes
About Lisa
Lisa Katona Smith, M.Ed., is a TEDx speaker, educator, and author of Parallel Recovery—a family-centered model that empowers loved ones to heal alongside someone facing mental health and substance use challenges. Known for her clarity, compassion, and systems-level insight, Lisa helps families and professionals build sustainable, connection-based recovery through consulting, training, and transformative conversations.
Connect with Lisa
You can connect with Lisa on LinkedIn at Lisa Katona Smith and on Instagram at Parallel Recovery. To find out how to work with Lisa visit her website at Lisa Katona Smith and catch her TEDx Talk The Power Of Parallel Recovery.
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Key Takeaways From This Episode with Lisa
- Lisa Katona Smith is a TEDx speaker, educator, and author of "Parallel Recovery" who developed her family-centered approach after navigating her own son's struggles with mental health and substance use.
- She focuses on a family systems approach. When one family member struggles with mental health or substance issues, the entire family system is impacted and needs healing, not just the individual with the problem.
- Parallel Recovery model is the families must engage in their own recovery process alongside their loved one, focusing on sustainability and connection rather than trying to "fix" the struggling person.
- Even when parents are divorcing, they can unite around "loving better" by avoiding blame and finger-pointing while addressing their child's struggles collaboratively.
- Focus on building genuine connection with struggling family members rather than trying to control their behavior through punishment or coercion.
- Ask open-ended, curiosity-based, non-judgmental questions to understand the person's experience rather than interrogating or immediately offering solutions.
- Allow family members to experience their difficult emotions without rushing to fix or minimize their pain, while providing emotional safety and support.
- Set clear expectations with calm follow-through based on family needs rather than punishment, using language that empowers rather than controls.
- Parents should demonstrate their own healing process and willingness to get help, showing that everyone in the family can grow and change.
- Look beyond surface behaviors (phone use, substance use) to understand deeper problems like lack of connection, anxiety, or self-medication.
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Transcript
How Families Can Navigate Kids' Mental Health Issues Better
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
connection, resilience healing
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Lisa Katona Smith
[00:00:00] Karen Covy Host: Hello and welcome to Off The Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover. What keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator turned coach, author, and entrepreneur.
[00:00:33] And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
[00:00:41] With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Lisa Katona Smith and Lisa's a TEDx speaker educator, and the author of Parallel Recovery, a family centered model that empowers loved ones to heal alongside someone facing mental health and substance use challenges. Known for her clarity, compassion, and systems level insight.
[00:01:02] Lisa helps families and professionals build sustainable connection based recovery through consulting, training, and transformative con conversations. Welcome to the show, Lisa.
Lisa Katona Smith: Thanks, Karen. Glad to be here.
I'm thrilled to have you here and I, I'd like to start, if you don't mind, with your story. 'cause I know, because I know you, that you work in the, in the world of recovery. And I love your perspective because it's not just the recovery of the person who might have an issue, but the recovery of the whole family system and how they deal with that. Regardless of whether the person who's got the issue wants to heal, wants to change or not.
[00:01:41] So, you know, I think this is a fascinating topic and one that a lot of people need to hear, but what drew you to get into this area?
[00:01:51] Lisa Katona Smith: Well, um, my oldest son has struggled with mental health and substance use and over the course of parenting him and learning how to be supportive and, um, really just. Going through that journey, which is really difficult and anyone listening who has experienced that will understand, um, what we came to find out, um, and what I came to find out is, is that families are sort of forgotten in the process.
[00:02:20] And, you know, we all have heard the phrase, addiction is a family disease, yet we do not address. The recovery and the support and the, the healing process of the whole family. So, um, you know what I, what I came to learn eventually through a lot of hard years was that until. I started to do my own internal work and engage differently with my son.
[00:02:49] He was really remaining stuck in his, um, patterns of behavior. Um, and when I was able to make some changes to myself, which ultimately changed my relationship to him, I was able to invite him to look at his life a little differently. And there's a lot of science behind that. Um, yet the. Recovery community doesn't really comprehensively support families.
[00:03:17] So I sort of became who I needed when I couldn't find me as many people do in their life, and, um, you know, decided that I really wanted to walk this journey entering the, the system of healing through the family and supporting and guiding families in this journey.
[00:03:36] Karen Covy Host: Thank you for sharing that and I, I love your story, but what fascinates me and what I have to ask you is, you know, most people when their child or their spouse or somebody around them in their family has mental health issues, substance abuse issue, they think of it as that person's problem. So I'm curious a ut what kind of internal work you can do that will make any difference at all.
[00:04:03] Lisa Katona Smith: Right. So this isn't about finding the reason for the person's struggle, um, although there are reasons and probably most likely you've participated in some of those reasons. Um, not necessarily cause them, but participated for sure. Um, but ultimately the, the person struggling is the squeaky wheel of the system. They're, they're the loudest voice, but the whole system has been impacted. So that's what I'm talking about.
[00:04:33] Karen Covy Host: Okay, so let's say there's a, a typical family mom, dad, two or three kids, right? And one of the kids, as in your case, had an issue. Does everybody in the family have to do interior work and change themselves? Or is it enough if just for example, mom does it or mom and dad do it, or, I mean, does everyone have to change? Or just one person or the person with the addiction.
[00:05:00] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. You know, I, I think I wanna first of all shift the word change to really just grow and, and develop.And, um, it, it's not about changing because you're wrong or broken. It's about saying, whoa, the way I've been doing this relationship is not helping one of the people in our family. One of our little chicks is not thriving here in the way that we're doing this. And that doesn't mean we're bad or wrong or broken, it just means that like we just need to kind of adjust some things.
[00:05:32] So one language is super, super important to me. Um, and I think it, it, it's, um, it's important to make that distinction. But secondly. It's a yes, and all of the people in the system have been impacted. And so all of the people in the system really would benefit by doing some healing and some growing and some, you know, work around sustainability for them.
[00:06:00] And ultimately if they choose connection to the person that is the loudest talker right now. Um, but. Just like one pebble can make a ripple in a pond, one person can start to shift the patterns of a family. And what I have found is a lot of times it is the mother. It's the, because moms are, um, they're sort of the change makers in the, in the family.
[00:06:24] Um, they're the ones who notice things and they're the ones who, who kind of implement things quick. Um, that when one person starts to make changes. Other people's roles get a little uncomfortable all of a sudden. So, you know, there's always going to be an invitation for other people to join, but everyone's got a choice
[00:06:45] Karen Covy Host: that makes, that makes so much sense. Um, and so when you've got a family and there's something, there's one person who's. Either dealing with substances or has a mental health issue. I, I know this, this affects so many people. It seems like maybe it's just me, that there is a huge in, uh, increase in young people who have mental health issues today.
[00:07:12] And what I'd like to, to add onto this situation is, let's say there's a family and they're impacted by one of their kids, has. You know, some sort of mental health issue. It's impacting the whole family. It's impacting the parents' relationship. And now either because of that or because of a myriad of things, the parents are going through a divorce.
What can the parents do or how can the family respond in a way that will keep everybody, or is, or. Positioned to best help keep everybody on level through what is gonna be a, a difficult situation.
[00:07:55] Lisa Katona Smith: Yes, I love that question. Um, and, and you're not wrong. I mean, through a myriad of reasons. The marriage is no longer working and it's very possible, maybe even likely that the difficulty of having a challenged child, it was the straw that broke the camel's back and, um, many times.
[00:08:15] What, what kind of breaks the back is finger pointing and needing there to be blame and a reason why this happened. You know, I don't have this in my family. This came from you. Or it's because you, you know, let him coddled him too much or we're too hard on him, or made him be on that soccer team and not this soccer team, or whatever.
[00:08:34] The things are that, that it, it feels easier to point fingers and find a reason and there isn't. A reason that somebody is struggling, there's pain in a person, and their expression of that pain tends to be, um. You know, not positive expressions like substance use or anger control or lying or all the things that come along with maladaptive coping skills, um, particularly of a young person.
[00:09:05] Um, so I would say the first step is that the two parents can agree that, that this marriage is not going to be sustainable for us as. As married people and we are parents to somebody who is hurting, and so we really do need to come together and understand that all of us have some, both parents have some ownership in participating in the path to get here today, right?
[00:09:32] Like I had to look at the fact that. There was some, some turning of, of my head and ignoring of some early problems that I did with my son and there was my, my husband had to acknowledge that he hung some carrots and used financial leverage with my son. Um, like those were our patterns. Um, I don't know if they resonate with anybody listening, but, you know, we had to look at that and I don't, um fault my husband for doing what he did, and he doesn't fault me for doing what I did because we had that skillset and that's all we knew. So now we know better and we can be invited better to parent our child better. I call it loving better. So, coming together to love our child better, that needs to be at the core of the co-parenting. Even if there's a disillusionment of the marriage.
[00:10:29] Karen Covy Host: So, what does loving better means? I mean, first of all, I love that I, I, I love this conversation and the way that you frame it and approach it. I think that that, that in and of itself is kind of a paradigm shift for a lot of people. But when you say loving better, what do you mean by that?
[00:10:49] Lisa Katona Smith: So the foundation of, um, I have a book, it's called Parallel Recovery, there is a recovery process that a family has to go through when they've been impacted or. I would invite them to go through when they've been impacted by the umbrella of mental health, whatever that expression looks like, substance use, all the things that come along with mental health challenges. And the, the foundation of parallel recovery is sustainability of me as a whole person and my life and my, um, ability to be functional and thriving. So how do I set boundaries appropriately so that I can love myself and love them. How can I, um, sustain? Sustain being in this relationship and not just say, I'm done.
[00:11:42] I'm done with this. Because if we're talking about children, the truth is we're not done. We might say that and be frustrated in the moment, but we're not done long term. Um, so that's not helpful. So how do I sustain this? And second piece is how do I connect to somebody? Who is running away from connection, but desperately needs connection.
[00:12:03] So how can I connect to them? Which notice I didn't say, how do I fix them? I said, how do I connect to them? Because when we can connect to somebody, we can invite them to make better choices for themselves. And unless you're talking about a very young child with, if we're, which if we're talking about, um, most mental health and hopefully all substance use. We're not talking about a super, super young child. We're talking about a, a young person, an adolescent at very least, that has some agency and, um, ability to make choices that are better than what they're making. So, sustainability and connection is the foundation of loving better. It's not just loving more, it's not fixing, it's not just taking care of myself. It's all of that.
[00:12:49] Karen Covy Host: So how do you let, let's say, as a parent. Make that connection with a child. Because a lot of times kids, they have depression, they have anxiety, they have failure to thrive, they don't wanna go to school. They like this exhibits in a multitude of different ways.
[00:13:07] And to your point, they don't necessarily want a connection. They need it. And maybe deep down they're craving it, but they push it away. So as a parent, how do you break through without being overbearing without loving too much, without forcing them or trying to coerce them into something that they're not gonna do anyway.
[00:13:29] Lisa Katona Smith: Right. Well, I think first thing is really accepting that this is the long game. Um, that, you know, there's not one conversation that you're gonna have with somebody that's going to be the game changer. So the overarching word is to. To be curious and to really want to listen, to understand somebody's experience.
[00:13:51] So I'll give you a couple of examples. A lot of people go, oh, I was curious. I asked a bunch of questions, but their questions sound like this. Why would you make that decision? That's not really a curious question. It's more like interrogation.
[00:14:04] Karen Covy Host: Yeah.
[00:14:06] Lisa Katona Smith: That's a question that has an agenda for an answer, right? And so that's not bringing somebody into connection, but what is bringing somebody into connection is, Hey, I've noticed the last couple weekends that you haven't really wanted to go out. What's going on? It's really wanting to peel the layers back and not make an assumption about what somebody is feeling or experiencing, but really being curious about what they say they're feeling or experiencing.
[00:14:36] And then this is what's hard for parents sitting with them. In that uncomfortable revelation. So if somebody says, I'm really not worthy of friends. I'm a terrible, nobody wants to be friends with me, I don't fit anywhere. As a parent, we are gonna wanna jump in and say. You always fit somewhere. I don't, those aren't your real friends anyways.
[00:15:03] And, um, sometimes I use the example, um, with parents where I say, you know, you can tell your daughter that she's pretty all you want, but if she doesn't have a date to the prom, she doesn't feel pretty. It's not enough for her dad to tell her she's pretty, she needs to have other people feel, make her feel pretty.
[00:15:22] So, um, it's the same thing here. Try not to toxic positivity, your child who's having a difficult life experience. But the way you, you brought up Karen, that, you know, failure to, failure to thrive, failure to launch, failure to, to move on with life. The, the, the underlying mental health challenges that we're seeing in young people. There's many reasons for that and that, that's a whole probably four days of podcasting. But, um. That to, to get all the answers, but, but one of the reasons is because our, our young people are not being given the opportunity to sit in their discomfort without somebody else making it go away. They're looking for external reasons and they have a lot, right?
[00:16:08] They have social media. We used to have to sit in our discomfort by ourselves. Um, 'cause we didn't have all the access to the external stuff they do now. They get immediate gratification on a regular basis. And as parents and, you know, I would, I would invite parents who are finger pointing right now because their marriage is falling apart and they've got kids who are struggling, um, to step back and say, hang on a second, we actually can be unified in this.
[00:16:39] We can both agree that we are not going to find reasons for their discomfort. We're gonna allow them to connect the dots for the reasons for the their discomfort, and we're gonna sit with them safely emotionally. Um, and be able to say, man, that, that's really tough. I'm so sorry that you're experiencing that and I just want you to know that I'm here for it. And, um, would love to continue conversations about this. 'cause I'm also noticing that maybe you're starting to engage in some things that you might see as a solution and probably are initially a solution, but long-term probably aren't. IE substance use.
[00:17:19] Karen Covy Host: It did well to follow up with that. I mean, what as a parent do you do if you, you see your kid is using alcohol, let's just say alcohol or marijuana, that's everywhere now. Or, you know, whatever Or their, their drug of choice, so to speak, is their phone. Their social media. They're on it all the, all the time. Is it more appropriate for you to say to, to, in, to let them sit in their discomfort to say, you know what? I'm taking your, your phone away, or you can't, you're stuck in this house. We're not gonna let you go to the liquor store, or you know, you're not gonna have the opportunity Yeah. To get the substance. Is that a good idea or does that just make everything worse?
[00:18:07] Lisa Katona Smith: So I would say yes, but I would set it up not as punishment, but as, Hey, as your parents we're concerned about something and here's what we're noticing. Step one, notice, state it. Um, and these are things like, again, let's go back to, um, the people that you work with, Karen, are, you know, at least investigating that their marriage is, is maybe not going to last long, but these parents can come together and say, you know, mom and I, or Dad and I have both noticed this and it's concerning to us.
[00:18:39] We're a little bit worried. And then the second step is ask a question. Be curious, have you noticed this too? Have you noticed yourself sinking into social media or your phone to escape? And they may say yes, or they may say no, but the more you're curious, the more likely that they're gonna. Feel like it's safe to say, I have noticed that because that they realize that there's not a punishment on the back end of that, so there might be a consequence.
[00:19:09] For example, a young person doesn't have a full brain yet, and so sometimes we have to make decisions for them because they don't have a. All of the cogs, you know, moving together to be able to make the right and healthy decision for them. So ultimately, we might get to, here's a statement of what we're noticing.
[00:19:26] We're curious what you're noticing or what you're feeling or experiencing. And it doesn't actually matter what they say, that we're just giving them the opportunity to maybe have a light bulb come on, and then be able to say, well, you know. I, I get it that you think that this is helpful to you, but we're actually seeing it being harmful to you.
[00:19:46] It's keeping you up too late at night. You're unable to get up and function at school. So dad and I, mom and I are going to make a decision that at both of our homes, we're gonna have some rules around when that. Phone gets turned in, or, um, what it looks like if you come home and we can smell weed on you, or if we go in your car and we notice alcohol bottles or whatever the things are that you're concerned about, all of this, it doesn't matter what the things are.
[00:20:14] Some of them are scarier than others, but you know, the process is essentially the same. And then you can make the, um, the follow through or the consequence and they might say. So the, the child might say, back, the, might say back, you know what, you are just punishing me because I don't, I don't get as good as grades as my sister or my brother.
And you don't have to take that bait. Um, you can just say, look, this isn't a punishment. I'm sure it feels like one validate, it probably does feel like a punishment. What this is, is our recognition that you're really not able to make the healthiest choice for yourself right now. So as parents, we're gonna step in and go ahead and make that choice for you. I'm really sorry that it feels like a punishment, but stay away from words like. Punishment and consequence, um, because those are things that they're gonna connect with you doing to them, and that's not an invitational partnership.
[00:21:08] Karen Covy Host: Yeah. Well, what do you do? All right, let me, let me complicate this for you. Okay. Let's say that the parent's relationship is falling apart, and part of the reason is that one parent thinks that we should do x, and one parent thinks we should do Y to help our child, right? So they're on very different pages. So you can't get that unity that your mother and I think that, you know, this is harming you.
[00:21:36] And so we're taking your devices at. 10 o'clock at night or what, whatever it is. One parent says, yes, I'll do that, and the other parent says, no, I won't. Now what do you do?
[00:21:47] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, I think there's two lanes to that. First is really if the parents are wanting to be collaborative together and not wanting to be right in the situation, is that, you know, they both together, um, agree that we're gonna take a 10,000 foot look at this problem.
[00:22:03] A lot of times people get. Distracted by the details. Um, so distracted by the phone use or the substance use, or those are the details and those are, those are big things and we need to focus on them. But what's underneath that? So if, if the parents can't agree, I mean, I think they should have a conversation that's like.
[00:22:28] What's actually going on? Is this a phone problem or is this a lack of connection problem? Is this a, is this an alcohol problem or is this a self-medicating problem for anxiety that is caused by are public arguing, like, what is going on here? What's underneath the problem? You gotta see the forest through the trees, right?
[00:22:52] So that's right. One lane of it. The second lane of it is, um, you know, making sure that each parent is, um, in alignment with. Am I trying to control this situation or am I trying to empower my child to learn how to do better? This is an opportunity for their growth. So is this, is this a me thing or is this a them thing?
[00:23:22] And this is Karen. This when you said, you know what, it feels a little, uh. Like, do all the people in the family have to, to go through this process? Yes. This is the part that's, it's, yes. It's really hard to look at ourselves and say, this might be a me thing. This might be something that I'm triggered about.
[00:23:38] This might be something like, am I, I don't like not being in control. I don't like non-compliance, and right now I'm getting non-compliance, so I'm gonna dig in deeper on the rules so that there's compliance. Well, you've got a squeaky wheel who might be really testing your control. And so do you want them to get better and ultimately be able to make better choices for themselves? Or do you wanna be right? And if you wanna be right. Okay. Um, you're gonna keep butting heads, but if you want to be in relationship and love better, you might need to look at yourself a little bit and, and just do a little check. And again, if, if the parents can get on board, even if your marriage is not working out to be able to say, Hey, look, I get it.
[00:24:23] Uh, like this has been. What's worked for you in the past? This worked for our other three kids. This is not working for this kid. And it makes sense that you're trying to do this, but is it actually benefiting the family or are you just scared?
[00:24:39] Karen Covy Host: So all of what you said makes perfect sense, but I can also see how it's really hard to do when you're in the muck of it, right? So if a, a family is saying, looking around, going, okay. What we're doing is not working and they can't come to the realizations and insights that you've just described because they don't have your experience. They don't know what they're doing. Maybe one person's going one way, the other spouse is going the other way. Like who knows what's going on? What kind of professional help do they even look for? Right.
[00:25:19] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, I would suggest professional help, um, to get everybody on the same page and stop finger pointing for sure. Um, and, you know, depending on what the problem behavior is. So if we're talking about substance use, I think it's really important that you find family help that, um.
[00:25:37] Whether it's a, a coach, a, a family coach, or a family guide, or, um, a family therapist that has a background and an understanding with substance use or major mental health disorders. Um, if you are talking about, you know, an adolescent or a very young person, um, definitely. Somebody who has experience understanding the person with the problem so that they can guide you.
[00:26:04] I, I work with a lot of people who come to me and will say, you know, Hey, my therapist said I just need to this. And I'm like, of course they did, because they don't have the background in addiction. Um, and it makes. You know, there's some general overlap, but you know, when you're talking about some nuances of specifics of mental health disorders, it really is important that the people have a background in that.
[00:26:30] Karen Covy Host Of course. But you know, I, I think the, the, the point of the question too is most people's. Initial reaction. Okay, little Johnny has a problem. Um, it's some sort of anxiety, depression. We don't know. We're gonna get little Johnny a therapist, right? Mm-hmm. Which may or may not help the child, but it does nothing for the rest of the family. So I, I guess what I'm curious about is at what point do you say we as a family need to find someone who can help? The system, the, the, the family unit versus just little Johnny or just one part of the system. Does that make sense?
[00:27:13] Lisa Katona Smith: Yes, absolutely. Great question. So I would discourage people from going into everybody's involved situation and we've got one person that the finger is being pointed at this person's behaviors is a problem. That's why we're all sitting in this office That is not. I don't believe that's a good starting point. So here's what I always encourage families who come to me to say, we have really been struggling with this season that we're in, and we've decided that we're gonna get some help so that we can learn how to navigate this with you better.
[00:27:45] So their modeling, we have been struggling and we are getting help. And, and then the invitation can come for that person, little Johnny or whomever it is, to also engage in Help. Do you think that this would be something that you would be interested in getting help for? They may or may not, not say yes, um, but ultimately you can get some support and you tell them.
[00:28:11] I'm getting help because I've been struggling and I haven't known how to handle myself nor a relationship, not you. That's, I'm not handling you, but I haven't known how to show up for you. I feel like I've not been super successful in loving you. So I wanted to learn how to do that differently, and I got some help for myself. It's really the parallel piece of my parallel recovery is mm-hmm. Modeling everything that you're doing. They also can and should be doing, but sometimes they need to see it first.
[00:28:48] Karen Covy Host: I love that because so many people, especially you know, in families in the context of divorce, they care about what the other person, the other parent, is saying to the child what's being said.
[00:29:04] But I always tell people, children learn by what they see by what you do. I love that you're telling them to go model the behavior. So let's say. Parents, or even just one parent goes to a family therapist by themself and they, they just keep going. And then at some point, can the kids join them? If it's, if it's not an individual therapist, I would think And then, and then at that point, the, the dynamic shifts and you start dealing with the whole family unit instead of. Any one individual person, right?
[00:29:43] Lisa Katona Smith: Absolutely. Yeah. And when the parents specifically can start changing their language and changing how they show up and the. Young person notices, oh, I'm not being punished for, by the way, the pain that I'm feeling because that's what's going on.
[00:30:00] It's coming out as looking like, not pain, but it's pain. There's, there's, there's a pain point internally, emotionally in that person and they're trying to make that pain less or they're distracting the problem, um, with problem behavior. Um, when they start realizing that I am a person that is lovable and, and the people around me want to love me, um, they start, nobody wants to feel bad. Nobody does. They just don't always know how to not feel bad.
[00:30:37] Karen Covy Host: Well, and I think the, the issue is as a parent, you don't always know how to. Help them not feel bad. And you, to your point, you mentioned this already, you get triggered by their behavior, which is your issue, not theirs. But you don't see it that way.
[00:30:56] Right. And so I guess the question I have is, if you are parent in this situation, how do you keep engaging with your child and loving them even when. Their behavior is difficult and they're pushing all your buttons and you just wanna scream.
[00:31:14] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. So I mean, it's really shifting into non-emotional boundaries. And boundaries is kind of a, a catchy word, right? Like it's a social media word right now. And I hear all the time, well, I set this boundary and they broke it. And I'm like, well, then you didn't set a boundary, put a rule down, and they didn't follow. It's kind of what happened. So, I mean, really good structure of boundaries is a non-emotional statement with a non-emotional follow through.
[00:31:40] So for example, let's just go back to the phone thing. 'cause everybody deals with this stuff. Um, right. Like we're noticing that our daughter is, um, you know, engaging in unhealthy relationships online and just it never ends and she's. Struggling in school, can't get up. Like all the things she's, um, started isolating from her other friend groups. All sorts of things are starting to happen, and we're concerned about that. So we as a family, um, have made a decision that everybody's gonna turn their phone in, put it on the kitchen counter at 10 o'clock, and it's gonna go off all the way. And, um, so the, the boundary would be, Hey, this is what we've noticed.
[00:32:21] That as a family, we all have some unhealthy relationships with, um, our devices. And, um, we think that it would be a great idea for all of us to be able to put our phones on the kitchen counter at the end of the night at this time. And, um. We have committed to doing that as parents, and what we need everybody to understand is that we are not going to be able to continue to support a phone for you if this is going to be too hard.
[00:32:54] So what I'm saying is. I'm going to make changes if this can't be something that happens and because this is what I need in my personal space so that we can support and parent you best. And it's not, since you can't handle a phone at night, you've gotta put your phone on the counter. That's a punishment, that's a rule. And then when they don't put it on the counter at night, what are you going to do to follow through? Well, you're gonna dole out punishment by taking their phone away instead of saying, here's what I'm going to do if this becomes too hard. I'm going to do something different. And it's really nuanced, Karen. It really is. But man, young people are. They're very in tuned with the nuance language. They can feel the difference. They personalize the punishment, and they can, they'll argue it, but they can depersonalize a follow through. And even if they don't, initially, I can't believe you're punishing me. And the sister didn't get her phone taken away, and all you can say is, Hey, look, here's what we've noticed. This is what we agreed to. This is how we are following through.
[00:34:09] Karen Covy Host: What if the child doesn't agree and says, no, I'm not gonna, you know, I, I don't, I'm not gonna put my phone on the counter at 10 o'clock.
[00:34:19] Lisa Katona Smith: Well, I would ask them if they have the, um, ability to go and ahead and, and get their own phone plan.
[00:34:25] Karen Covy Host: Okay. I like that. Hopefully they're not employed. So the answer to that is yes.
[00:34:31] Lisa Katona Smith: Although, I don't know, phone plans are pretty expensive.
[00:34:34] Karen Covy Host: Yeah, that's true.
[00:34:34] Lisa Katona Smith: Um, and purchase their own phone. Right.
[00:34:38] Karen Covy Host: Yeah.
[00:34:38] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, like, I mean, and validate that this feels unfair. I get it. This probably feels unfair and I get it. You probably feel like you're the only one of your friends that has this in place, and this is how we are going to parent you best.
[00:34:56] Karen Covy Host: And then do you impose the same standard? Like for the whole family, like every person in the family is putting their phone on that counter at 10 o'clock.
[00:35:06] Lisa Katona Smith: You know, Karen, I think it, it depends, like that's all situational. There's no one size fits all. Um, but it really does help, especially if we're talking about an adolescent or young adult, very young adult, like college age, um, that. We are also taking ownership for our own reflection. I have noticed myself get in bed and scroll TikTok, and I think it affects my sleep. I've also noticed that I wake up every day at two o'clock in the morning and I read this article that that light interrupts my circadian rhythm. So I'm gonna give this a go-to. Um, that is helpful if, but it doesn't have to be.
[00:35:44] Karen Covy Host: Well, I was thinking more in terms of sibling relationships, right? Oh, you have more than one kid and then the other kids start looking at the, the child that's got the behavioral issue you're trying to control or you know, trying to deal with.. You know, and they're like. Hey, it's all your fault. We have to put our, you know, be kids will do that, right? Um, and so I wondered if it, if it makes sense and, and to your point, it's probably situational whether the parents say everybody does this or. You know, just us and you know who, who knows, right?
[00:36:21] Lisa Katona Smith: And I think it, there's a lot of the situational things. I mean, there's a ton of research. It doesn't take too long to figure out that, that probably everybody should do this, um, with a phone. But, you know, if it's. Curfew, um, which, you know, that's maybe a little bit, um, looser where, you know, the curfew has been shortened because of some behavior that's not safe or healthy. But the other sibling, maybe their curfew hasn't been shortened. Like, I mean, I think it depends on your parenting style. Um, but ultimately, I don't get into arguments about, um, what's equal or not equal. I mean, it's just like, Hey, look, this is what we've noticed and this is the decision that we're making in terms of our relationship. Um, and just try not to take the bait to get distracted by you know the other stuff
[00:37:15] Karen Covy Host: That is so hard as somebody who has parented teenagers, it's like I hear the refrain of that's not fair. Right? Yeah. So many times they, the kids will do that, and I think to your point, it's about being strong enough to say, no, this is what we think is best for. Our family and it's not about fair or not fair. I'm sorry. You feel that like I, I love your point of validating that.
[00:37:48] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah. I'm sorry that you feel this is unfair. I can understand that. Yeah. But I can see how you would think this is unfair because they have a different curfew than you and this is the decision that we've made for your health. And, and it really is. You've gotta take ownership of, we're. decision making adults with observation of data, and we are, we have used that data to come to a conclusion that has been hard for us to come to and is gonna be hard for you to sit with. All of those things are true and not, but, and this is what we're doing. Thanks for understanding.
[00:38:26] Karen Covy Host: Oh, I love that. And they're like, I don't understand. Yeah. But tell me about your book. I know that's just come, you know that that's come out recently, hasn't it? Yeah, two weeks ago. Yep. Yay. Congratulations. So tell me about the book and what's in it and what can people expect if they're looking for a solution, if they have a similar problem. Um, what can they expect to find in your book?
[00:38:49] Lisa Katona Smith: Yeah, it's really, it's not a set of steps, but it's, it kind of a circular guide. Um, it's called Parallel recovery. And it's, it is sort of a, I really think in a, in the circle because, um, if we're in the middle of the circle, then we can reach out to all sorts of tools. But if it's a linear thing, then it, it's kind of hard to go backwards to beginning steps. So it's really a, it's a guide of structured reflection. Communication tools, um, self-compassion, grief, um, psychoeducation of mental health and substance use disorder. So there's kind of, um, overarching units and there's chapters underneath those units.
[00:39:31] But those are, are the basic kind of circular, guideposts or pillars, if you will. Mm-hmm. Of um. Of information that's in there. So, you know, kind of basic understanding of sharing the burden of change. Um, we, our family is not thriving. All of us. We've got, uh, one or two or a few of us that are, are not doing so well.
[00:39:53] So we as a, as a community are going to share the burden and kind of take on our own roles of healing. Um, then it's, um. You know, some reflection of how did I, how did I show up here? Um, and who do I wanna be in this relationship? Do I wanna be a door slammer in my kids' relationship or do I wanna be patient?
[00:40:14] Um, and we've gotta figure out what's going on to make us a door slammer and how, how we can be patient. And then communication tools. How do I set boundaries? How do I speak to someone? How do I show up with compassion and empathy? When I'm kind of resentful and angry right now. Um, self-compassion for like, when I do start slamming doors again, understanding and giving myself space to be okay and get okay. Um, really understanding grief that like this picture isn't turning out the way I had planned for that. Um, because that's a real thing. And, um, psychoeducation of understanding, you know, what goes on underneath the behavior that is really scary. What's going on in the brain.
[00:40:58] Karen Covy Host: That's interesting. That's fascinating. And it, it actually, as you were, you know, going through what's in that book, I could see it as a guide for almost any relationship. Yeah. How do you communicate, how do you get through, how do you, you know, all, all the things that, that applies to a multitude of different kinds of relationships.
[00:41:19] Lisa Katona Smith: Absolutely. Yeah. It, it a guide to love people in life. Right. It's hard.
[00:41:24] Karen Covy Host: Yeah. It, you know, and you don't, we we're brought up to believe it's easy. Of course, you just love everybody and it's sometimes not so easy, especially when we have. Predetermined expectations of what this is supposed to look like. And then when it doesn't look like that, we get all either angry or hurt or upset or fill in the blank of bad emotion because it wasn't the way it was supposed to be when there really wasn't a supposed to be. We made that up. Or society made up.
[00:41:57] Lisa Katona Smith: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, and when we, when we are in that head space. One of several things could be going on with the resentment and stuff. It, it could be, um. A, a lot of times it's fear. The underlying emotion is fear because we're seeing things and it could be fear of a lot of things. Fear of, I mean, substance abuse is scary. That's a scary behavior. Mental health challenges is scary. We, we know this is a scary thing. Um, but it could also be fear of that, you know, their future is gonna be ruined or their opportunities aren't gonna be there. You know, just all the things that this isn't going, I'm, I'm afraid that this story doesn't play out the way I, I had pictured.
[00:42:39] And when we lead with fear, we are reactive and it is really hard. We're, we're coming from a very primal place in our brain and we, we really need to be able to step back and do a lot of reflecting to slow things down, to be able to address somebody who is not showing up super well in their life. And truth be told, they're scared too. Um, and so we can't show up with our own fear. We've gotta address our own fear so that we can show up and love better.
[00:43:10] Karen Covy Host: I, I totally love, love this. Lisa, this has been a fascinating conversation. If people are interested, if they're, you know, struggling with issues and somebody wants to get a hold of you, where's the best place for them to do that?
[00:43:25] Lisa Katona Smith: Sure I have a website, lisakatonasmith.com. Um, I'm on Instagram, the most Parallel Recovery. Um, and you can find my book on Amazon Parallel Recovery.
[00:43:38] Karen Covy Host: That that's wonderful. And for anyone who's watching or listening, we will link to all the places you can find Lisa and her book, and her TED Talk and everything else.
[00:43:46] Everything will be linked in the show notes. Lisa, thank you so much. I think this has been a really important conversation that's gonna help a lot of people.
Lisa Katona Smith: Thank you, Karen. I appreciate it.
Karen Covy Host: You're welcome. And, and for those of you who are watching, and those of you who are listening, if you enjoy today's conversation, if you'd like to see more conversations just like this, do me a big favor. Give this episode a thumbs up. Like, subscribe to wherever you're listening or watching, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.
