The Best of “Off the Fence” 2025

Episode Description - Best of 2025

When life throws you into chaos - whether it's a divorce, a fractured family relationship, or a crossroads moment - the advice you get next can either save you or sink you. This compilation brings together the most powerful insights from the best of over 50 episodes about divorce, relationships, finance, psychology, and wellness. The professionals in this episode distill years of wisdom into practical strategies that actually work when your life is falling apart. From narcissistic abuse survivors to financial planners, therapists to health experts, these are the voices who've helped thousands navigate their darkest moments and come out stronger on the other side.

In this "Best of Off the Fence 2025" episode, you'll discover how adult children can be systematically isolated by narcissistic partners, the surprising way to flip out of "victim mode" by asking one simple question, and the Social Security mistakes that could cost you thousands. You'll also get practical guidance on building self-care routines that go beyond bubble baths and how to turn post-divorce dating into the foundation for a solid, fulfilling long-term relationship.

Whether you're navigating family conflict, making financial decisions, trying to heal and rebuild after divorce, or you're looking to start over romantically, this collection offers the hard-won wisdom that only comes from experts who've guided countless others through these exact challenges.

Show Notes

Episodes and Bios of the Guests in The Best of "Off the Fence" 2025

Episode 113: Narcissistic Alienation of Adult Children:  When Love Turns to Loss

About Tracy Malone

Tracy Malone is an International divorce coach, narcissist abuse survival coach, author, speaker, educator, victim, and surTHRIVER of narcissistic abuse. Tracy is also the author of Divorcing Your Narcissist: You Can't make This Shit up! And the founder of Narcissist Abuse Support.com.

Connect with Tracy Malone

You can connect with Tracy on LinkedIn at Tracy Malone and Facebook at Narcissist Abuse Support Group. You can follow Tracy on YouTube at Tracy Malone, Twitter at Tracy Malone and on Instagram at Tracy A Malone. You can find out more about Tracy’s work and find support with narcissist abuse on Tracy’s website Narcissist Abuse Support and buy her book Divorcing Your Narcissist: You Can’t Make This Shit Up!

Episode 117: Trapped in Victim Mode? How to Flip Your Drama Triangle

About  Dr. Carrie Johansson

Dr.  Carrie Johansson is a psychologist turned speaker and author. Fondly known as The Sensible Psychologist, she works with teams, corporate audiences and dedicated individuals, to build resilience and help them skillfully navigate life’s inevitable ups and downs. On a personal note, Dr. Carrie works her own program to create a life she really enjoys. One of her favorite pastimes is baking muffins, ask her for your favorite flavor and she’ll make them for you!

Connect with Dr. Carrie Johansson

Connect with Dr. Carrie Johansson on Facebook at Dr. Carrie Johansson and LinkedIn at Self Help on the Go and follow her on YouTube. To find out more about the work Dr. Johansson does visit her website at Self Help On The Go and grab her book Self Help On The Go.

Episode 155:  Social Security Mistakes That Cost Your Thousands

About Eric

Eric Blake is a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® professional and the founder of Blake Wealth Management, specializing in helping women 55+ navigate retirement with clarity and confidence. With more than 25 years of experience, Eric provides strategies to optimize investments, create reliable income, and minimize taxes. Inspired by his mother and grandmother’s financial journeys, Eric has a personal passion for empowering women to take control of their financial future

Connect with Eric

You can connect with Eric on LinkedIn at Eric Blake and on Facebook at Eric Blake. You can follow Eric on Instagram at Eric Blake, on YouTube at The Simply Retirement Podcast and on his podcast The Simply Retirement Podcast. To find out more about Eric’s work visit his website at Blake Wealth Management.

Episode 137:  Real Self-Care That Works When Your Life is Falling Apart

About Jennifer

Jennifer Gilman, is a National Board-Certified Health & Wellness Coach and the visionary force behind New Way Health Coach. After a 26-year corporate career marked by autoimmune struggles and burnout, Jennifer transformed her own health—and now helps others do the same through science-backed, deeply personalized coaching. She and her team specialize in one-on-one coaching and corporate wellness, blending functional medicine with intuitive, real-world strategies. Known as the “self-care muse,” Jennifer inspires lasting change and empowers clients to reclaim their energy, focus, and well-being.

Connect with Jennifer

You can connect with Jennifer on LinkedIn at Jennifer Gilman and on Facebook at New Way Health Coach.  You can follow Jennifer on her YouTube channel at New Way Health Coach and on Instagram at New Way Health Coach.  To find out more about Jennifer’s work or to schedule a Discovery call for 1:1 coaching visit her website at New Way Health Coach.

Episode 141:  Navigating Post-Divorce Dating with Love Expert Laurie Gerber

About Laurie

Laurie Gerber is one of the most engaging and effective life coaches and presenters in the country.

After holding several positions at Handel Group® over the last 20 years, including President of HG Life, Laurie is currently licensing The Handel Method® and running Laurie Gerber Coaching, Inc. focusing on LOVE coaching.

Laurie has appeared on the Today Show, Dr, Phil, MTV and A & E and been the resident love expert at Match, Zoosk, Jdate, and many more.

She has been presenting to and coaching individuals, couples, and groups, with a wide range of partners including: the dating sites above, General Assembly, She Tribe, BeSocialChange, IvyConnect, Ellevate, and many more. She has appeared on television shows, podcasts, radio shows, and all over the internet. Check out “The Secret-Free Diet”, her TedX talk on the power of truth telling.

When not working from her NYC townhouse, she’s meditating, jogging, or attempting to get cuddles from her 10, 20 and 22-year old kids and husband of 26 years.

Connect with Laurie

You can connect with Laurie on LinkedIn at Laurie Gerber and on Facebook at Laurie Gerber. You can follow Laurie on Instagram @lauriegerber_coach, on TikTok at lauriegerber_coach and on YouTube at @lauriegerbercoach.  To find out more about Laurie’s work visit her website at Laurie Gerber and for more of Laurie's dating resources check out her FREE webinar:

"3 Secrets to Finding and Maintaining Healthy Love without Repeated Disappointments"

Key Takeaways From This Episode

Tracy Malone – Narcissistic Alienation of Adult Children

• Narcissistic partners systematically isolate adult children from healthy parents by love-bombing initially, then demonizing and falsely accusing parents to cut off the child’s support system.
• Estrangement is a control tactic, not a response to real harm, often involving manufactured boundary violations, rejected apologies, and using grandchildren as leverage to maintain power.

Dr. Carrie Johansson – Flipping the Drama Triangle

• People get stuck in the victim–rescuer–bully triangle during divorce, often without realizing it, which keeps them disempowered and reactive.
• The way out is the “choice triangle”: shifting from victim to creator, rescuer to champion, and bully to challenger by asking, “What’s my next best move?”

Eric Blake – Avoiding Costly Social Security Mistakes

• Social Security claiming decisions must be individualized, based on full retirement age, longevity, work status, tax planning, and divorce or survivor benefits—not rules of thumb.
• Timing matters enormously: claiming early can permanently reduce benefits, while delaying (often until 70) can significantly increase guaranteed, inflation-adjusted lifetime income.

Jennifer Gilman – Real Self-Care During Divorce

• Self-care during divorce must be simple, practical, and sustainable, starting with just one or two proven actions that help regulate stress and prevent burnout.
• Daily routines and grounding practices matter more than “treats”—morning and evening rituals, journaling, nature, breathwork, and sleep hygiene help stabilize the nervous system during trauma.

Laurie Gerber – Dating & Love After Divorce

• Successful relationships require alignment in all three areas: head, heart, and chemistry (“hoo-ha”) — not settling for one or two while sacrificing the others. You’re aiming for strong compatibility across all three, not trade-offs.
• Attraction and connection can sometimes grow through honest communication, but if chemistry can’t reach a solid level even after truth-telling and effort, it’s a sign the person isn’t the right long-term partner — and that clarity saves time and heartache. 

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Transcript

The Best Of "Off the Fence" 2025

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

 empowerment, awareness, resilience, healing financial clarity

SPEAKERS

Karen Covy,  Tracy Malone, Dr. Carrie Johansson, Eric Blake, Jennifer Gilman, Laurie Gerber

Karen Covy: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making to try to figure out what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how do we get unstuck? I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorced lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. This is a very special episode of the Off the Fence podcast. But before we get into it, I want to say a big thank you. Thank you so much for watching, for listening, and most importantly, for liking and subscribing. And if you haven't subscribed yet, it's really easy. Just hit the subscribe button below right now. It means the world to us. It really helps the show a lot.

Now, in this episode, you're going to hear little snippets from the very best episodes of 2025. So you're going to discover about narcissistic alienation of adult children. You're going to hear about how to flip your drama triangle, how to avoid Social Security mistakes that can cost you thousands. You'll learn about real self-care that works when your life is falling apart. And you'll discover how to navigate post-divorce dating. Now, there are links to all of the full episodes in the show notes. So if you enjoy something, I really encourage you to check out the whole episode. And so now, without further ado, let's get on to the best of 2025.

In this snippet, we're going to hear from Tracy Malone, an international divorce coach, narcissist abuse survival coach, author, speaker, educator, victim, and survivor of narcissistic abuse. And Tracy's going to talk about narcissistic alienation of adult children when love turns to loss.

Karen Covy:

Children who are now becoming estranged from their parents, the non-narcissistic parent, um, because they've married a narcissist. So tell me a little bit about that. Tell me what you're seeing.

Tracy Malone: 2:11

So, you know, when an adult child um meets someone, falls in love, most families welcome them in. Oh, we're so happy. They buy them a house, they give them a good wedding, they take care of them. But you don't know that the person your child is marrying is narcissistic because at the beginning, that love bombing extends to the family. That hooks you going, oh, I couldn't have wanted a better person for my child. Oh my God, they're perfect. I'm so happy. And then you welcome this person. And then as soon as the ink is dry on the marriage certificate, or even sometimes in the relationship process, they have to eliminate anyone that they perceive as a threat, meaning parents, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, anyone that would be their support system, even their friends. Imagine if your kid came to you and goes, Hey mom, is it normal that this is happening? And you give them advice and go, I'm not sure, honey, but this, you know, it sounds a little weird, but any kind of thing that you could give them advice on, the narcissist doesn't want you to have any influence. So isolate is going to be the game. And what they do is just so sinister. They demonize the parents. Right. Um, just like we have the  smearing and that sort of thing and twisting of stories in any narcissistic relationship, these stories get turned on the parents and they can be accused of and ail and estranged from their adult child because they gave their grandchild a strawberry or they gave their grandchild a cup of water. How dare you do that? How dare you feed my kid, you know, a can of fruit that I was saving for something else out of the cabinet. Like these are the kind of ridiculous false allegations that get blown up and amplified because they're going to tell your child, oh, your parents aren't listening to your boundaries. Oh, they're passive aggressive. And so they start to twist things that happened in the past or are currently happening into this storyline that makes the kids walk away from healthy parents. There's a difference, remember? There are narcissistic parents that people should get the heck away from. There's no question of that. But these are the strongest families that this is happening to because that's the bond they have to break.

Karen Covy: 4:45

So it sounds like what we're talking about are adult children who were raised with parents where one of their parents was a narcissist, the other was not.

Tracy Malone: 4:56

And so pure bled, happy, loving parents and no narcissistic ties. That's what screws up the parents because they've had no exposure to this kind of crazy. Right. Of course, there are some when there is a narcissistic you know partner, absolutely, but 90% of these estrangements are coming from purebed, do things together, you know, camp together. Really, really strong families, both mom and dad. But the narcissist usually targets one.

Karen Covy: And that's targets mom or dad.

Tracy Malone:

Exactly. Sometimes it's both of them, and they just like off with your head, never want to talk to either of you. Often, as a game, they let say, I'll just use the example of dad in, but because mom was so close to the child, mom can't be seen, but dad gets to go in. And so what happens is it causes conflict between mom and dad. And mom's like, What can I do? And you know, and then the other parent is sometimes going, Well, is it better for me to just not see them too? Or should I go and get and tell and tell you the grandchildren are okay? And that causes again another rift. They're put in the middle.

Karen Covy: 6:13

Oh my gosh. So what we're talking about here, to be clear, are cases, situations where an adult may marries a narcissist, but we're not talking about what's happening in their relationship in terms of, you know, them so much as it's the non-narcists' parents who are bearing the brunt of this and they are becoming isolated from their adult child and it and their grandchildren too, right?

Tracy Malone:

Absolutely. Yeah. Grandchildren become weapons.

Karen Covy:

So, how long does it take for this to manifest? For example, you just gave the example of, you know, you meet the person and you're like, oh, this is they're wonderful, they're going to be great for my child. You give them the wedding, and then things start to deteriorate, but it takes a little while to cook a grandchild, you know, it's like at least nine months, right? Unless they were already pregnant when they got married, which also happens. But um, so how do you does it, is it when the grandchildren are born that this behavior starts to manifest? Is it before then? Is it after then? What are you seeing?

Tracy Malone: 7:24

I even see it in, you know, dating relationships where even though they haven't even put the ring on their finger, they're estranging their parents. So it happens in different situations. It could be, you know, I've had them a week after the wedding and that was it. Um, I've had parents that, you know, a year, two years, um, where it was kind of coasting, but it was always when they came for the holidays, it was a problem. It was like, okay, your mother just looked at me funny. I don't want to go back there anymore. And it starts to escalate. And then everything, it's pick, pick, pick. If you think about the cycle of abuse and narcissistic abuse, idealized, which includes love bombing and winning you over to the devalue stage, which is where they pick. That's when, and that could take for a long time. It depends on how strong your child is, how soon they acquiesce and stop fighting, going, No, I don't think that's what my mom meant by looking at you that way. I've had parents estranged because at their daughter's, or I'm saying this one was at their son's wedding, and they said that the mother looked at the bride weird. That was it. How do you combat that?

Karen Covy: 8:42

And when you say estranged, what do you mean? What happens?

Tracy Malone: 8:48

Um, basically, they  can do a any different combination. Again, some parents are cut off, don't talk to us, don't ever call us. Um, then sometimes the siblings are also thrown into that bucket. And while other parents have limited contact and they may have access, but it's not their child. Like every single text doesn't even sound like their child, and they're just like, you know, I asked to come and see them for their birthday, but sorry, it's like your cat's in the cradle, no room for your mom. Can't we're too busy now, right? So it starts to ebb away where we're too busy, can't make it. This year we're going to hit their family's house, and they start to do it that way. But eventually the declaration um comes out that, you know, we don't want anything to do with you. And often it comes with a couple threats. Like, I want you to get therapy. I've had people have to get therapy and produce receipts to the adult child's partner to show they were getting therapy. Um, and still even then they were like, well, that wasn't good enough. You know, it I've had the apology torse. This is another factor in this that is heart-wrenching. They accuse you of something and you go, oh my God, that's not what I meant. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And they don't accept the apology, right? They actually use it as a weapon. And I've had people give two, three, four hundred apologies, and you looked at us wrong, you smiled, you got up from the table too fast, you didn't send me a follow-up email, we're not accepting it. And again, you go back to silent purgatory.

Karen Covy: 10:31

Whoa. So how does a parent like know if they're before the stage or before the time when they're totally cut out of their child's life? But things are starting to get a little dicey, right? They're not seeing them as much. The child is making more excuses. Oh, we're too busy, oh, this or that or the other thing. How do you know when there's a deeper problem or when your kid's just really too busy?

Tracy Malone: 11:04

Um, it's usually accompanied with those false allegations, right? It doesn't just go, boom, I know this. It's mom, you shouldn't have said that. That was passive aggressive. They love to throw that around. Um, they love to throw around that you've broken their boundaries despite the fact that they never actually set one, you know, and you're like, okay, well, now I know it is, I'll I won't do that anymore, but it's too late. You've already been cut off. So, you know, these things happen. But I also want you to think about this. It's not just the targeted parent, right? Whether it's both or one. It's also their friends are cut off, their passions are cut off, and you know, everything that they like to do. They like to play guitar, they like to go to the gym, they were on a softball team, everything gets cut out, which is why the parents are like, my kid was a concert violinist, and now they won't pick it up anymore, right? So it's taking away everything. And this happens in every narcissistic marriage. You give yourself to this person, and everything about your life becomes, you know, gone. And this is what's happening in this younger generation. It's it's almost to be expected now. In if your child gets one of these narcissists in this age, it is so common. It's just like there's message boards, there's boards out there of how do we estrange and how dare they do this. And all these children or adult children are getting together to talk about this. And I think they're taking the advice that I give to people with narcissistic parents, going, if they're gaslighting you, if they're this, if they're that, this is what you should do. They're taking that, but they're manufacturing the accusation. It's never real, it's always twisted and becomes into something that it never was intended to be.

Karen Covy: 12:56

That's crazy.

Tracy Malone:

I know. If people can see your face as I'm talking, you're like,

Karen Covy:

I'm just dumbfounded. I mean, because I I've had some like I've dealt with a lot of parents who, you know, going through a divorce is tough. And it's tough on adult children. A lot of people don't realize the impact that their adult their divorce will have on their adult children, so they don't take it seriously, or they don't, they're not sensitive enough, or they do something, or their or their adult child sides with their spouse in the divorce and says, Hey, you did the bad thing, or you you blew up the family. This was your decision, therefore I'm mad at you. Okay, that's one situation, and that's  a scenario where it often takes a very long time to repair the relationship, but they're not being actively estranged. They're not being isolate, their child's not being isolated. And it's the child who may not even be in a relationship, but saying, Hey, you did this thing, I don't like what you did, I'm mad at you. And then you work through that circumstance, right? Um, but what you're saying is something very, very different, which is that the child is being estranged by their spouse or partner or some other person, and it's not targeted necessarily at the parents, although the parents are suffering because of it, but it's targeted at the child to isolate them as part of the narcissist's plan.

Tracy Malone: 14:34

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, you mentioned the divorce factor here. What I've seen, and I actually just made a video, I don't think it's launched yet, but I made a video about um when someone was married to a narcissist, right? So they have that, you know, sort of patterns they've seen. The adult child has seen this stuff. And now, like you just said, sometimes they select the narcissist because the narcissist can be all yummy and telling lies about the other one and is showering them with gifts and they will go towards the narcissistic parent and again go, Mom, you did this, I don't like that, whatever you did. Um, but when this happens and you are divorced, that single parent, all they have is their child. Right. And so for it now to be ripped away from them, because they are single, it is hard for couples to navigate this together. There is always a disagreement. One parent is going, you know, I don't believe that, you know, uh we should play this game. You know, we deserve more than this. This isn't okay. I'm not playing the narcissist game. Whereas the other parent is struggling to, you know, kiss the narcissist's butt and it's  the bargaining. I'll do anything. You want me to apologize again? Can I buy you a house? How about I give you this? You know, they will do anything. So that difference in the way the parents handle it is a problem. But think about this. If you're alone and you've got nobody, um that is even like the worst thing because now that they've stripped away the only child or your only family member, right?

Karen Covy: 16:17

Now you're gonna hear from Dr. Carrie Johansson. And Dr. Carrie is a psychologist, turned speaker and author. Fondly known as the sensible psychologist, she works with teams, corporate audiences, and dedicated individuals to build resilience and help them skillfully navigate life's inevitable ups and downs. On a personal note, Dr. Carrie also works her own program to create a life she really enjoys. And now you I hope you enjoy listening to Dr. Carrie talk about how you can flip your drama triangle.

People have a natural tendency, which makes so much sense, um, to feel bad when they're going a divorce. They figure that they feel like, poor me, poor me, why did this happen to me? I didn't sign up for this kind of thing, right? Why is this happening to me? And it's really easy to get trapped in victim mode. But and when you're in that head space, it's easy for someone else to say, oh, you know, just shake it off, get out of it. But it's not so, it's not that easy to do. So I wanted to talk to you about how you help people get out of that psychology and into something that will serve them better. So, how do you do that? What would you say to somebody who's like starting the divorce process or thinking about it and think, this is not, this isn't what I wanted for my life. I shouldn't have to be doing this. Poor me, poor me, poor me.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Yeah. And I think one of the most important places to start is just to understand that you're in victim mode. And we all get into victim mode. I think sometimes we have this idea that if we're in victim mode, that means that there's something wrong with us or that, you know, we're doing something wrong. And the answer is like, I teach this stuff, Karen, all the time. I have to catch myself when I get into victim mode. And the number one way that you can tell, am I in victim mode? There's a couple of tells. The first, the number one way is if you are asking the question, why me? And you feel like life is happening to you instead of you creating your life, right? That's the number one thing. The next, the next major tell that you're actually in victim mode is that you're looking for a rescue. You want someone to come and make it all better, right? So, and sometimes you'll be doing that with yourself. Well, if I'd only done this, if I'd only done that, if he'd only done this, if she'd only done that, right? Like that, when you're looking for the rescue, that actually is an indication that you are still in victim mode.

Karen Covy:

And that's really good. I I've never thought of that one before. So thank you for that. I think that's really telling.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

And the third is when you actually get into what I call bully mode. And so bully mode is when, well, you have to do this. I have to do that. I can't do anything except this, right? Anytime you get that really like rigid, very demanding sort of tone, either with yourself or with others, you probably have slipped into bully mode. And so that completes the victim triangle, right? This is an old research. It's this uh guy named Cartman from the 70s. If you look him up, he the main picture of him that you'll find online, he's wearing the grooviest 70s shirt, right? He looks like he's a part of the Bee Gees. His outfit is hilarious. Um, but the Cartman Drama Triangle is quite famous. What I've done with the Cartman Drama Triangle is utilized it and put it into a framework called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. So, this is a longstanding theory of therapy that I've been using in my practice. And essentially ACT is all about asking the main question: what's my next best move? So, this flips you right out of that victim triangle and flips you into the choice triangle.

Karen Covy:

I like that, but I want to stop you for a second right here for people who aren't or may might not be familiar with the drama triangle. Can you say again, what are the three um characters? Would that be the right uh three points, right? Like the points of the triangle.

So uh the first, the bottom point of the triangle is victim mode. You know you're in victim mode when you're asking, why me? Why is and you have this overwhelming feeling that life is happening to me, right? The next point on the triangle is rescuer, and this is where you are looking for a rescue, or you can be serving as a rescuer to other people. This is the part that's interesting is that sometimes the victim triangle, we think of ourselves as this noble rescuer, right? Secretly, you want to be someone's champion. That's in the twist triangle. We don't want to be their rescuer. Now, um if you're at the beach and somebody's drowning and you need to pluck them out of the water, please rescue them, right? But rescues should be this, they should take this much time, it should be quick, right? Because as soon as humanly possible, you want people to be back on their own two feet and you want them to be choosing the direction of their life.

Karen Covy:

So it sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the when we get into that rescuer mindset, we're almost enabling or perpetuating the victimhood of someone else so we can be the rescuer.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Yes. Yes. And a piece of how you know you're in rescuer mode is sort of the central feeling there is that um is that you're the only one who can save them.

Karen Covy: 22:19

Right.

Dr. Carrie Johansson: 22:20

And now when we're in victim mode and we're looking for a rescue, right? It's like this is where people get into trouble when they're first getting divorced and they go out and they start dating, and the very first person they date is going to save them and vindicate this bad relationship they were in. And this is not good news that you're not gonna end up in a great relationship if the relationship is a rescue. You're rescuing someone else if they're rescuing you.

Karen Covy:

Got it. The victim, the rescuer, and what's the third point of the triangle?

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

The bully. Okay. So the bully, I know better than you what you should do right now, right? If only you do it this way. And how often do we bully ourselves?

Karen Covy:

Often. Yeah, that's true.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Right? We'll often be a bully to ourselves. Also, though, in a divorce process, one person in the divorce sometimes serves as the bully. One person's the victim, they're helpless, it's terrible, this is happening to them. One person's the bully, they're sort of kind of emotionally pounding on somebody. Or you'll have people outside in your life who are bullying you because, again, they know better than you what you should do in this moment.

Karen Covy:

You know, this is probably a very politically incorrect thing for me to be saying. I tend to do that. But um in what I can see in the context of the legal system where the client comes in, often the woman, but not always. But the client comes in with the sob story and the lawyer becomes the bully. They assume that role. And I know, I mean, personally, that's not the approach that I ever espoused when I was actively practicing law because I don't think it's my job or my right to make decisions for another person's life. My job is to tell them, here's all the decisions you have, here's the pros and cons, the consequences of each decision. Now you have to choose. But I have many colleagues that I know who will just say, no, you're gonna do this and you're gonna do that. And the person, the client, doesn't know any better, and they're comfortable in that victim role. So that drama triangle just perpetuates all the way through the divorce.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Yes. And we're looking for a rescue. Which if you're in victim mode, if you're in that victim triangle and there's somebody who's being a bully, you will want a rescue. Yeah. Right. So the choice triangle, if you imagine that the victim triangle is like an upside-down triangle like this, with the point on the bottom, with the point on the bottom. That's easier. The choice triangle is the opposite. So the opposite of victim is creator, okay. The opposite of rescuer is champion, the opposite of bully is challenger.

Karen Covy:

Okay, say more about those um three prototypes, whatever you would say.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

So, and again, this is not this is not an original idea. There was actually a a graduate student who was taking a look at the Cartman Drama Triangle, and I think this was in the late 90s, early 2000s, his name was Sean Choi. And he came up with this idea of like, well, what would the opposite of the victim triangle look like? So he's the first person who started this idea. I've kind of um, you know, for my work and my practice, I'm using my own languaging, but these are these are not original ideas. Right. So, the central question in the victim triangle is why me? The central question in the choice triangle is what's my next best move? Okay. So, it isn't I'll be okay once this is over. It is this is happening right now. What options do I have right now? What would I eventually like life to look like? Sure, but mostly it is about what's my next best move in this moment? What are the choices I do have?

Karen Covy:

Okay, so and I’m trying to wrap my head around this because people are always looking, well, sometimes looking to the end of the divorce. It's like what I want to be happy, I want uh to be financially secure, I want my kids to be well adjusted, and they're looking at all those things. But when you're and it's good to keep the end in mind, as Stephen Covey would say, however, when you're in the thick of it, like you have so many choices before you get to that place that you can't make it. So if I understand what you're saying is, you know, yes, keep that in mind, but look at what you can do right now.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Yes. And what's your next best move?

Karen Covy:

Okay, say more about that.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Right. So let's say you have an idea that you want to be happy, right? Okay, you're unhappy in your marriage, you're getting a divorce, you want to be happy. You can't wait for happiness to come. Number one, happiness isn't uh it's not a new purse, right? Like, well, maybe sometimes it's a new purse, but it's not a thing. It's actually a state of being, and it's something that, like any other emotion, is going to ebb and flow. And so if you'd like to have more happiness in your world, that's actually going to be linked to what actions are you doing? Happiness just does it, you don't just wake up in the morning and it's sitting at the breakfast table waiting for you, right? You wake up in the morning and you think to yourself, what could I do today that would make me feel a little happier? And then how can you notice on any given day when you are feeling happy?

Karen Covy:

How do you mean notice when you are feeling happy? Don't we know when we're happy?

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

But we don't really necessarily pay attention to it, right? Not unless it's a big loud thing, right? Like it's easy to feel happy when your kid graduates from high school, right? It's easy to feel happy when you get a great big bonus check at work. But our happiness is actually made up of all these little tiny little things, right? Like I happened to be around a coffee shop this morning. I'm not a coffee drinker, but I had to put a piece of mail in a mailbox, and that happened to be right next door to a coffee shop that I hadn't tried. And so I walked in and I got myself a really nice cup of tea. And then my job, right? My next best move this morning, first of all, was to have enough flexibility in my schedule to be able to be like, hey, I haven't ever tried that coffee shop. I wonder if they have a nice cup of tea. And I walk in and I try it. Turns out they do. And but then my job to sort of cement in that satisfied, happy feeling, is to really take a second and admire the tea. And take a second and enjoy drinking the tea. And take a second and enjoy that I have enough space in my morning to be able to get a cup of tea.

Karen Covy:

So it sounds like what you're talking about is building being in being in the present moment, building an awareness of what's going on right now.

Dr. Carrie Johansson:

Yeah. And to do an assessment of what's going on right now. There's been plenty of mornings I've driven by this very same coffee shop and have not had the time to stop because if I did the assessment of my morning, the assessment was like, oh no, don't have enough time. Okay, no problem. Right? But so this assessment process, right? I think particularly in divorce, we get very into like the good and the bad bucket. I'm good, he's bad, I'm good, she's bad, right? Um and what we're missing is all of this lovely nuance in between. And assessment takes judgment out of it. So judgment is good or bad. Right. Assessment is this behavior in a marriage that does not suit my values, I'm no longer willing to put up with it.

Karen Covy: 31:16

In this next segment, we're going to hear from Eric Blake. Eric is a certified financial planner professional and the founder of Blake Wealth Management, specializing in helping women 55 plus navigate retirement with clarity and confidence. With more than 25 years of experience, Eric provides strategies to optimize investments, create reliable income, and minimize taxes. Inspired by his mother and grandmother's financial journeys, Eric has a personal passion for empowering women to take control of their financial future. Eric is also a Social Security expert.

Eric Blake: 31:46

So, I think the biggest thing you want to start with is when you look at your Social Security statement, you want to figure out number one, what is your full retirement age? And then number two, what is my full retirement age benefit? So, the full retirement age, as you said, it has changed. So back in 1983, that's when we have the current rules that we have in place where it was increased to age 67. But as many people probably have figured out, it took about 40 years for that to actually happen. So that's where the little bit of the confusion comes in, where it was 66 and then 66 in two months, and 66 in four months, and so on and so forth, based on the year that you were born. But basically, right now it's made relatively simple and just say, okay, if I was born in 1960 or later, my full retirement age is 67. Right? And so when we're talking about people in kind of that retirement planning phase, that many that's gonna apply to most people. Now, once you know, okay, what's my full retirement age, what's my full retirement age benefit, that is gonna be the age at which you can start receiving the full benefit with no reduction. Right? So if you start early, that's always the key thing to know. If you start earlier than your full retirement age, your benefit is gonna get reduced by some percentage. Right? So there's all kinds of different rules of thumb. I think, again, it's as complex as Social Security can be, it really needs to be an individualized decision based on your cash flow needs, based on your other resources. That should guide your decision as to when I'm gonna start. Because again, life just sometimes just happens. And so we've got to make decisions on the fly sometimes. So, you go into it and say, okay, here's when I think I should start. But if life happens and I have to start sooner, so be it. Or if I have the opportunity to delay, my benefit can actually increase beyond my full retirement age to a maximum benefit at age 70. Now, again, keep in mind this is talking about my personal benefit, my personal retirement benefit. And actually, we'll get into espousal benefits and exspousal benefits and all those fun topics as well. But that's kind of the basics of what you want to know.

Karen Covy: 33:41

Okay, so let me ask you a question because let's say I'm a person and I'm approaching that full retirement age. I'm not there. And so my decision is do I start now? Do I start at full retirement? Do I wait until I'm 70? How do I figure out what's going to ultimately put the most dollars in my pocket? Because if I start earlier, I may be getting less money now, but I'll be getting it for longer, assuming I live an average lifespan.

Eric Blake: 34:08

Okay, so that that's always the easy question. So if you can tell me when you're going to pass away, I'll give you the exact answer. That's  the easiest way to go about it. Just tell me when you're not when you're gonna pass away, and I'll give you the perfect answer. And but that's obviously that's where the trick is, right? So we look at things like longevity. What's my history, what's my family history look like? And what are the other variables in my life? And I've just looking at other resources. But you can always say, well, the maximum, the very maximum benefit from again, my own retirement benefit is gonna be age 70. But then you get that question, well, what about how long do I have to live before that pays off?. And for most people, that's gonna be if I wait till 70, it's gonna be somewhere in those early 80 years, 81, 82 is gonna be the what we call the break-even point, where the benefits I receive by waiting surpass my lifetime benefits I would have received by starting earlier.

Karen Covy: 35:02

Okay. So let me ask you another question. If I'm still working, because a lot of people I know are they're vibrant, they're able to work, they want to work, or they're in a situation where they have to continue working, right? Whichever bucket they fall in. Um, and so let's say they're still working at age 67, okay? Um does it make sense for them to start claiming their social security then, or does it get reduced because they're still working?

Eric Blake: 35:34

That's a great question. And I actually did a podcast episode on this. Unfortunately, it's not out yet, but it'll be out in a couple of weeks. But on that exact topic, and where, where is how where do these break-even calculators miss the mark? Right. So it's not just as easy as saying, well, if I start here, what's my lifetime benefit? If I start there, what's my lifetime benefit? We need to fact, and that's why it's so individualized based on your specific situation. So working, because as you said, there are so many individuals who continue to work on into their late 60s, early 70s, because what else might they do? Sometimes they don't know what else there might be, you know, what what's my life gonna look like if I'm not working? But that's really where we start looking at saying, okay, that's where that full retirement age really again becomes so critical. We'll just so just for our conversation purposes, we'll assume our full retirement age is 67. If I start receiving sociality benefits earlier than that age and I'm working, I'm gonna be subject to something called the earnings test. Right. And that means I can only earn up to a certain amount before my benefit actually could get reduced.

Karen Covy: 36:35

Okay.

Eric Blake: 36:36

But once I've hit full retirement age, that magic age, I can work and can earn as much as I need to or want to with no impact on my social security benefits.

Karen Covy: 36:45

Okay, so let me stop you. I want to make sure that I understand this. So, let's say I'm 67 years old, I'm at full, I'm at full retirement age, I'm not at 70, I'm not the later, but I can start claiming social security. And let's say I'm earning $100,000 a year. Is there any reason why I would not want to claim social security if I could?

Eric Blake: 37:08

Again, it looks it’s one of those things where you have to think about my how do I think emotionally about my finances? So, if I were to tell you, okay, if I just delay three more years, you're gonna get a guaranteed 24% increase in my benefit for the rest of my life. Guaranteed. And that income's also actually gonna increase with inflation. Would that make you feel bad? Would that help you sleep better at night knowing that? And that's the part that a lot of people don't necessarily think about is saying, okay, if I have my full time and age benefit is 3,000 and I wait three more years, that means that benefit's gonna be something closer to maybe 3,800 guaranteed for the rest of my life.

Karen Covy: 37:51

Okay, let's say I'm and we're gonna change the scenario. Let's say I am 70, right? So that I'm at the outside, social security is never gonna get better than that, right?

Eric Blake: 38:00

Right, exactly.

Karen Covy: 38:01

So I'm 70 years old. Is there any reason for me not to claim social security if I'm still working? Let's say I'm making a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand dollars a year. Is there any will my social security get reduced? Will I get dinged for that? Does it make sense?

Eric Blake: 38:18

The only reason, so almost there's almost very, very few situations where you wouldn't apply at 70 because again, your benefit, you're there's no benefit to you of waiting at that point. The only reasons, I'll give you just a couple of minor reasons. Hopefully this doesn't mud the muddy the waters too much, but the only reasons why you might still delay is for tax planning purposes. So just a quick example to say, okay, I turned 70 in July, but I've got a full year of salary coming for that year. Well, if I'm gonna be in a higher tax bracket, that might mean I can actually use a strategy, very little-known strategy, of saying I'm actually I can wait and receive retroactive benefits of up to six months. So I might say I'm just I'm gonna wait till January, file for my benefit retroactively to my 70th birthday, so that my benefits don't actually kick in until January, because now I've retired, I'm in a lower tax bracket, I'm in a better circumstance from that standpoint. That's the only very few reasons why that would make sense. But for the most part, if you once you hit 70, for the most for the majority of people, you apply and you move forward from there.

Karen Covy: 39:21

That makes so much sense because for those listening, and tell me if I'm right, you pay income tax on the year you receive the income. So even if it's for retroactive benefits, let's say for benefits in 2025, if you don't get the money in your hand till 2026, it's 2026 income, right?

Eric Blake: 39:40

Exactly. So, like if I'm making 150,000 a year in 2025, I might not want to start that. I don't might not want to add extra income to that because it might push me into a higher tax bracket. This year we also have the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, which has an additional age 65 plus deduction of 6,000. What if that extra Social Security income pushes me? Above that threshold. Now I lost $6,000 in deduction and this new deduction that we have available for age 65 plus. So that's really where again, all these you always talk about, I talk about this retirement income puzzle. You got all these different pieces. You got IRA accounts and 401ks and Social Security and taxes, you got all these different things. How do you start putting those pieces together in a way that makes sense for you? And that's really the key to this is really making sure you look at your situation, figure out what the optimal strategies are for you, or consult with a financial advisor that has experience in this phase of life. Because not all advisors do. So you got to be sure if you're going to ask, ask for advice, you're going to ask for guidance, make sure you're asking these types of questions. Okay, how do how what's your familiarity with Social Security rules? Specifically for diverse divorce circumstances or widow circumstances, how much experience do you have? Do you have somebody, do you have a client I might be able to talk to about their experiences working with you? Those types of things.

Karen Covy: 40:58

I  really love that. And when you're talking about the context of divorce, what further complicates things, as you know, is that often one spouse was the stay-at-home spouse. And so they don't have the same level of retirement benefit from Social Security due to them, but they may be eligible for a spousal to claim under their spouse and get the spousal benefit. Can you explain what's the spousal benefit in Social Security and how does that work?

Eric Blake: 41:29

So, I think that one of the key things is you always got to distinguish that when you hear the word spousal, you got to distinguish between a spousal benefit, which is based on the higher earner's record, and a survivor benefit. So many people get those confused. Okay. So let's talk about specifically about spousal benefits and ex-pousal benefits. So while we'll assume the spouse or the ex-spouse is still alive to make it easy. Okay. So if I don't have enough earnings on my own record to receive my own retirement benefit, I might be considered, as you said, applying for a spousal or expousal benefit. That's going to be a maximum of 50% of my ex-spouse or spouse's full retirement age benefit. Again, you hear me say that full retirement age, that's a really the key number key date, key number. It's up to 50% of the spouse's or ex-spousal's full retirement age benefit. Right?

Karen Covy: 42:19

Okay.

Eric Blake: 42:20

And if you remember, I talked about earlier, again, we'll just keep with our 67 theme of being full retirement is being 67. I talked about earlier. If I anytime I apply for any benefit before my full retirement age, my benefit is going to get reduced, whether it's my own or that spousal benefit.

Karen Covy: 42:36

Okay.

Eric Blake: 42:36

So 50%, a lot of people are familiar with that 50%, right? But they think it's no matter what. It's not. It's 50%. Once I've reached full retirement age, once the you, as the lower earning spouse, reaches full retirement age, that's the 50% mark. If I start at 62, it's going to be closer to about 32 per 32%, 33%, depending again, your year of birth. So that's a significant decline. Again, using a three, easy $3,000 a month benefit is my ex-spouse or spouse's full retirement age benefit. Half of that is $1,500. 32% of that's about a thousand bucks. Right?

Karen Covy: 43:13

Yikes. All right. So that's spousal benefit. What's the survivor benefit?

Eric Blake: 43:20

Survivor benefit is going to be, and again, I want to make sure actually I'm sure we'll get into the rules around exes because that is going to be critical to what we're conversation here. But a survivor benefit basically says if my spouse or even ex-spouse, many people are actually eligible for an ex-spousal survivor benefit, that means I'm going to be able to receive 100% of what they were receiving at the time they passed or what they would have been eligible for at their full retirement age if they hadn't started yet.

Karen Covy: 43:47

Wow. Okay. So 100%.

Eric Blake: 43:49

Yeah.

Karen Covy: 43:50

That's amazing. So, all right, but what happens if let's say, and we'll get into the rules of divorce in a second, but let's say I'm claiming under my spouse's benefit, so I'm getting 50% of what he is getting. And let's say we're all at full retirement age. Let's just make it simple, right? Okay. We're all at full retirement age. He's getting uh $3,000 a month. I'm getting $1,500 a month because I'm getting half of his. He dies. Am I stuck with the $1,500 or can I now apply for his full $3,000 because he died?

Eric Blake: 44:28

You're going to be able to apply for the full $3,000. Yours goes away. Now keep in mind, that's one of the things. You once one of the spouses passes away, the lower benefit goes away completely. It's gone. You get to keep the higher of those two benefits. So in this case, $3,000 a month. So you get to receive that $3,000 a month.

Karen Covy: 44:45

Now we're going to hear from Jennifer Gilman. Jennifer is a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach and the visionary force behind New Way Health Coach. After a 26-year corporate career marked by autoimmune struggles and burnout, Jennifer transformed her own health and now helps others do the same through science-backed, deeply personalized coaching. She and her team specialize in one-on-one coaching and corporate wellness, blending functional medicine with intuitive, real-world strategies. Known as the self-care muse, Jennifer inspires lasting change and empowers clients to reclaim their energy, focus, and well-being.

And speaking about stress in a traumatic situation, as you know, divorce is often that for people. It is a major life transition and it comes with a whole lot of stress. So you know, we always think of divorce in terms of the money or the kids or the legalities of it. And people don't often think about the effects on their physical body of going through a divorce. So, if somebody is about to embark on that journey, what advice would you give them so that they could take care of themselves along the way and not end up burnt out and in adrenal fatigue?

Jennifer Gilman: 46:08

Yes, such a good question. And it happens over and over again that you're trying to cope with all of this when in reality, it's almost like, you know, when we're in the airline and they say put your face mask on, your oxygen mask on first. I want you to remember that if you're going through a divorce right now, you've got to put your oxygen mask on first. And that could mean multiple things. Thinking first about what are maybe two things I can do that I know always work to make me feel better. And it could be very different from for you, for me, many people it is, like making sure I get outside and exercise, going for walks outside. For another person, they might see, say to me, I need to make sure I don't eat sugar. You know, so there are a lot of things, but I would never want to overwhelm anyone. So the question to you would be choose two things that you could do right now that you just know you would feel better. Because once you start doing that, you'll start to do more actually, and start to take care of yourself.

Karen Covy: 47:13

I love that because divorce, especially, is already overwhelming. And to hit people with a whole list of you've got to do this and this and this and this is just adding to the overwhelm and not really solving the problem. But I just have to ask you this this might not be the best question, and I apologize. But everybody, when I think of self-care, everybody always talks about, oh, just go take a bubble bath, and that makes it all better. Um, and something inside of me says that's not gonna cut it. Um what do you think about that? And what how can people engage in productive self-care? I don't know the right word, but you know what I mean?

Jennifer Gilman: 47:54

That's a great way to put it, actually, just productive self-care on a daily basis. Um, and that's what I love diving into this. And there's another term that some people say mind-body medicine for this, because really it is what can I mindfully do and be present for where I'm actually in a more relaxed state. And so that could be how do you start your morning? So I do want to, I'd love to, you know, talk a little bit more about this. How do you start your morning? How do you end your day? And then do you take healing pauses in the middle? So, a couple of examples. You might start your day initially as you as you begin a morning routine, and maybe you've never done one before, with just a cup of coffee or a cup of tea sitting on your porch and journaling, or just doing nothing actually, being aware of the birds singing around you, the sun coming up. These are precious times for you that put you in a relaxed, very uh gracious state. That is self-care. Now, there's other people that build lengthy routines. I don't know if you've heard of um Hal Elrod with the Miracle Morning. Okay.

Karen Covy: 49:03

Of course. So great book, by the way.

Speaker : 49:05

Yes, so good. When that first came out is when I was going through my crisis. So to 2017 was burnout time for me. And 2018, I dove into his book first, and then I read many others, the 5 a.m. Club and all these others, to just realize I need a morning routine and I need a nighttime routine, and I've got to get serious about this. And that is what really helped me. That is all self-care. So, in in his acronym savors, it's like being silent, doing your affirmations, visualizing, exercising, reading, and then S is for scribing, which is journaling. So that's his acronym savors. And it saved me, honestly. I started that routine and I began to transition into like, oh, this is self-care. When I go for a walk or I do some exercise, that's self-care. When I intentionally cook my breakfast or have something like really nutritious to eat, and I do it kind of slowly and then sit in a quiet area without like being in front of a TV, that is self-care. You know, all of these little moments, these little rituals that you can have. It could be prayer, it could be reading a devotional, put it could be listening to some nice music. So all of those could be the morning, and then you would build a routine for the night as well. Lately, I've been doing a lot of uh talking around healing pauses throughout the day because I do speak to um go into some companies and speak to their employees. How can they take a moment and do five deep breaths at their desk or stand up and do a little bit of stretching, or just go outside to look at the sun and come back in? You know, this is all self-care.

Karen Covy: 50:50

Okay, so just to play devil's advocate here for a moment, let what would you say to the person? Because you've been through a divorce, so you know what it's like. And the person who says, Oh, great, I'm supposed to just sit in silence. Well, when I do that, that's when my brain starts going crazy and I start thinking of like the parade of horribles and you know, doing what psychologists call awfulizing, you know. Yes, that that's worse for me. What would you say to that person?

Jennifer Gilman: 51:17

Yeah, for that person who's just beginning some of this work, it's really good to start to dream and think about the possibilities and starting that on paper because there's no way you're going to sit in silence. I don't want you to even try it. You know, if you're listening and you're like, I can't even think about meditating or anything like that right now. But it is very uh cathartic to actually write, to spill on paper your thoughts, but reversing it because at this point in time, you might have been like, all right, I've already been talking to my friends and I'm pouring everything out in such a negative way. I need something opposite of that. So, if you want to start building your new life and starting to look forward to that, that freedom that you will have, even though you're in the trenches right now, start to spill that on paper of just like, what do I maybe want? The possibilities are possible, you know, it's endless. What would this look like? You know, a year from now or two years from now. Hmm, I wonder. And just let anything throw it all on there. You know, it doesn't mean it's all gonna be what you choose to go after, but allow that to start happening and really starting to visualize then yourself in that state of now it's behind me, how happy I'm gonna be. So, we do need to begin that process. And it's good to do that right now because you still will have your conversations that are on the negative end of you know whatever you're going through, because you need that too. You need your friends and your social connections, those best friends or your faith, whatever it is, to be able to pour out verbally how you're feeling.

Karen Covy: 53:03

Yeah, I love that and I love the idea of journaling. I work with that a lot with my clients too. And what is important to know is that you're not nothing is set in stone. You're writing it with a pen and a paper, and you could crumble up the paper and throw it away, right? It just because you something comes out doesn't mean this is what you're bound to do, or it's a you know, it's your life plan. It's just writing.

Jennifer Gilman: 53:32

Exactly. And then I would say being out in nature as much as possible. Nature does nurture. So those are the two real things of when you're really in the trenches and you feel so lost and that you are losing your mind, you start to fill your head with like, how am I gonna get through even today? You know, those are a couple of things to do is really get out in nature, even if it's uh walking in the grass barefooted. That's called earthing or grounding, that's wonderful for you. Sitting up against a tree, that is very grounding, or just laying down in the grass like you did when you were a kid and looking up. You know, these are things, these this is grounding, there's science to it, but I don't want you to think about the science, just do it.

Karen Covy: 54:20

You know, I love that. It's like, yeah, there's  a really good reason, don't worry about it, just do it, just do it, get out in nature, yeah. Yeah, because so many times when you start thinking about it too much, that's when you start spinning and it just never happens. And yeah, I love the whole morning routine idea. I, you know, I've heard a lot about that, but the evening routine, why and what should that look like?

Jennifer Gilman: 54:44

Yes. And again, I don't want you to think of what it should it like, what should it be like, right? What would be something that you might want to try first? All the science, again, is there is if you shut that TV off um an hour or two before, you're going to have a better night's sleep. If you stop with your phone and electronics, blah, blah, blah. We all know that at this point, right? But now it's like, how do I actually implement something? So, I want you to think of one or two things that you would like to just try. Maybe you've already said to yourself, like, if I had an evening routine, I feel like it would be a cup of tea and reading a book. Well, then you start that. And maybe you only read, you know, five pages. So what? You started, you started the process. Just be careful if you're reading, nothing too heavy. Uh, it's usually time for maybe a fiction book and just have fun with that. Allow yourself something light because if you get into something that is you're learning from it, or if you have to think, you're going to carry that into your sleep, or you might not be sleeping. Uh, so that's just a couple of things, but start light, dim the lights in the house. You know, start to bring the whole house into that nighttime vibe. And then if you can begin with a half an hour before bed shutting off all electronics, that's a really good beginning. So just start really, really slow. But uh, trust me, you'll fall in love with your night routine before you know it. The days you don't do it, you'll be like, I just I didn't sleep well. I feel so much better when I do my routine. And you'll prove to yourself that it works.

Karen Covy: 56:19

Yeah. That reminds me of the things that Dr. Huberman, Andrew Huberman recommends about getting light in your eyes early in the morning, right when you get up, and then in the evening, winding things down, making them darker, and staying away from the screens. Like if you're gonna read a book, read a book, not on an iPad or a reader or anything like that.

Jennifer Gilman: 56:43

Right, right. And you don't have to be buying a bunch of books. We still have a great library system, you know. I use it. So I think it, you know, you don't need to own all these books or have that expense, especially going through a divorce. You don't need another expense, right? So the library's great. Um, and think about the circadian rhythm that's gonna help you uh really get through this divorce if we can make sure you're getting a good night's sleep as best you can. So this wind-down routine, fasting for 12 hours is very good for your health, of just making sure you finish, you know, a few hours before bed as far as eating. You know, just shoot for 12 hours. That does a world of good. You don't have to worry about pushing limits here, but you're gonna be more on top of your game and be able to think clearly as you make decisions if you have your circuit your circadian rhythm correct, which includes Huberman's like, get up in the morning and go see the sun, go greet the sun and say, hello, I'm here. It's another day.

Karen Covy: 57:43

Yep. And I what I love about that too is that it also can be a way to blend in your get out in nature, even if it's five minutes. You go outside on your porch or your balcony or wherever you can get outside, look at the sun, get a little sun, breathe. You know, you speaking of breathing, you had mentioned that. Um, what kind of breathing techniques do you have? Any that you could share with people that help them calm down in the moment for those pauses that you talked about to take during the during the day. Um what kind of techniques would help do that?

Jennifer Gilman: 58:23

I usually um I teach this often, and even in my one-to-one coaching, um, if you know, if I feel called or they're having trouble, I'm like, would you like me to guide you through a few different types of breath work? Or they might be just saying, like, I don't know how to do breath work during the day. So to your question, I teach three different ones specifically, and I do not make the others, there's so many types. Let's not complicate it. And I start out with soft belly breathing. And soft belly breathing is really putting your right hand on your belly and your left hand on your chest. And then you're going to breathe in through the nose as your belly expands, not your chest. So we're trying to focus on expanding the belly, not the chest. And when we breathe out, we breathe out through the mouth and our belly contracts. So this trips people up because typically we're chest breathers, which is just shallow breathing, and that's not great for our cardiovascular health. We do want to work on this. So this soft belly breathing, breathe in through the nose and breathe out through the mouth and breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth. And a little tip there is when we're breathing out, I usually tell people purse your lips as if you are breathing through a straw because it helps you to slow down the exhale. It's really good to have a nice long exhale, and that helps our nervous system to reset. So if you're listening, next time you stop at a red light, I want you to practice your soft belly breathing with eyes open. You can do this anywhere. So rather than grabbing your phone and you know, shoving in another text, you know, checking texts or whatever, just do like five, three to five breaths of soft belly breathing. So there's no counting involved. That one most people take to very easily. The next one would be box breathing. Box breathing is highly known for helping with anxiety and panic in particular. Now, as I lead people through it, which is inhaling to a count of four, holding for a count of four, exhaling through your mouth for a count of four, and holding at the bottom for a count of four. So we're basically making this box. Inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for four, hold for four. And the magic number is if you can do five rounds of any of these, it's wonderful. But that one specifically, when people practice it with me, they're like, the counting was too much for me. However, we're not in an anxiety or panic moment right now. So then I'll hear from them later. Like, I went into anxiety and I used that box breathing, and it worked because I just focused on counting.

Karen Covy: 1:01:06

Last but not least, we are going to hear from Laurie Gerber. Laurie is a life coach who's the resident love expert at Match, Zusk, J Date, and many more. She's appeared on the Today Show, Dr. Phil, MTV, and AE. She's appeared on television shows, podcasts, radio shows, and all over the internet, and she's given a TED Talk on the power of truth telling. After holding several positions at Handel Group over the last 20 years, including president of HG Life, Laurie is currently licensing the Handel method and running Laurie Lori Gerber Coaching Inc., focusing on love coaching. Please enjoy this segment with Laurie Gerber.

Laurie Gerber: 1:01:44

Is you in your in your highest consciousness, you have your criteria for your head, your criteria for your heart, and your criteria for your hoo-ha. So your crit and if you're a man, your heat, whatever you want to call that, H, you know, whatever turns you want. So your criteria for head are things like do we want the same things? Do we want to spend the kind of time together? Do we want the same activities? Do we orient towards our families in ways that would combine well? Do our dreams intersect in ways that don't make them mutually exclusive? Is the money gonna work out okay? Are that are there health issues that are gonna create a huge problem? So the head is practical, then the heart is all about how it feels. And the heart is a wild card because you could you could really find out you care about something you didn't know you cared about, like the way they make you laugh, or the way they look at you, or the way they treat your mother, or the way they treat their kids, or there's the heart is a little less black and white about what it likes, but it likes what it likes and it knows when it feels safe and trusting and like they've like you found someone that you want to be best friends with and you want to care for and have them care for you. And then the hoo-haw is attraction and chemistry. And again, that can be a wild card too. People think they know their type, and 50% of the time they end up picking something they didn't think was their type and being very happy and attractive. So when I say sell out, I mean most of us don't think we can have all three. We pick one or two out of the three and sell out the third because we think it's a pie of 100%. And if you get 70% hoo-haw, you only have 30% left over for head and heart. And my methodology, the three H method, which is part of the handel method, is 100%, 100%, 100%, 100% head, 100% heart, 100% hoo-ha, and you're going for an eight out of 10 in each, not making them compete, actually giving them each their own voice and giving each voice validity.

Karen Covy: 1:03:49

Interesting. So, would you say I take it from what you're saying that if there if that level of attraction isn't there, that it's not gonna work, or is there something you can do to up the attraction level?

Laurie Gerber: 1:04:05

Great question. So let's say you love and feel cared for by this person and it looks good on paper, your lives would mesh, you want the same things, but the I don't even let you go from a video date to a live date unless the attractions at a six or above, right? So if it's a two, ah, sorry, right? But if it's a six, which a six is kind of like, I don't know, leaning towards no, but it's still I don't know. There's still an I don't know in it. Like maybe, I don't know. I need to see this person, how they act, how they maybe if they lost 20 pounds, maybe if they shaved that beard or grew beard, you know. So so so getting you from a six to eight is the is fun, right? And I really have had women, I just I think I just celebrated two years with one of my 50 plus women with her boyfriend, who she adores. And when we met him and when we started, she was at a nine, nine, seven in hoo-ha, right? And okay, we were like, uh, oh dear, we might like let's not give up right right away, right? And so she made a list of all of her concerns, and they really kind of boiled down to how he dressed, right? And this was a guy at the time he was not yet divorced, he had teenage daughters, um, and he was a beautiful body, cute face, you know, like a lot to recommend him. And so, I just got her to work up the courage to be like so John will call him. I'm really digging you. I think you're great. I'm attracted to you. I think we have a lot in common. I'm looking for my one. I know you are too. How would you feel about me doing a little clothing makeover on you? Like, would you be up for that? Because, you know, your wardrobe's pretty 90s. Like it just hasn't been up, it just hasn't been updated. And I love fashion and I'm into it. And I  want to go out with you and be proud of how we look. And he just said, you know, thank God. Like, thank God you came along, right? Because my kids make fun of me. I have no taste in clothing. I don't know what to do. I'm just trying to get something on my body to leave the house. Of course I need this help. It would, I would love to please you in this way. Let's set a budget. Let's whoops, let's set a budget, let's  pick some places and yeah, style me. You can be my stylist. I'm happy. So that's just the one example of hoo-ha can go up. I have other stories where if you tell the truth, I mean, the first thing that my husband said to me on our first date, he said, Um, can we brush our teeth before we kiss? He basically said, you know, your breath stinks. And it did. Like I was eating garlic that day. So he just he gave me a hoo-ha note on the first date. And like in that moment, I was like mortified, but I brushed my teeth. We had a great first kiss, and now it's 30 plus years together. So my point is if you're brave enough to admit if your hoo-ha's only a six, seven and ask for I have another one, another story. Should I tell one more? So one more story about the woman who really cared about her guy being healthy and fit, and he wasn't, and she liked everything else about him. But then at the you know, fine, we say we you get about three dates to figure this out. And on so on the third day, we made her work up the courage to do this design conversation where she says, Look, I just really I'm into my own health. I find health and you know, strong body attractive, and this is what I'm into. And I'm concerned if we ended up together, I would be judging you for that, or just, you know, it would concern me on a on a health level. And, you know, I just that's my taste. My taste is just a little more, you know, firm and toned. Right? You have to say it in just the right way. And he said, I was in a car accident and I've been off my workout routine and I'm just cleared by the doctor to get back, but normally this is how I look. And he pulled out a he pulled out a picture which was like, Oh, why didn't you say so? You know, and then proceeded to, you know, become that person again. So these are the good stories, right? There are some stories where you can't get the hoo-haw up to an eight or above, and then that's not your person.

Karen Covy: 1:08:37

Well, and how do you deal with that? Because I always thought, I mean, I dated for a very long time before I found my husband. And what I found to be true is that if the chemistry wasn't there, and it might not be something that you could put your finger on and say, you're dressing like a zlub or you know, it's this or it's that. It's there was just that, like it wasn't there. And sometimes and you try so blooming hard, you know.

Laurie Gerber: 1:09:05

And that can go either way. So you can change what you can change. But I had another client who did not like the way her partner smelled. She literally, and that was not, and they tried to change it, you know, they tried eating differently and mouthwash, you know, they tried things, but it she couldn't shake it. And that smell was triggering for her, and she ended up breaking up with him. Um, so I think that can go both ways, and it's important to consider chemistry can grow. We have so many stories about how someone treats you and how someone behaves, makes them sexier and gets them to an eight or above. Conversely, you could make all the changes, and it's just, it's just you just don't feel it because there is something about Who Ha that's pheromonal, hormonal, and uh, and un maybe something that happened before you turned 18, you know. I don't know. To me, I'm I feel like I was scarred by some of the movies of my childhood. But, you know, so some things you can change and some things you can't.

Karen Covy: 1:10:03

But you know, and the other thing, would you say it could also go the other way? Like you have a certain level of attraction to someone that's you know really amazing in the beginning, but the way they treat you or what happened happens makes you go, yeah.

Laurie Gerber: 1:10:19

Exactly. In fact, the very most attractive guys I ever dated, I I lost attraction within weeks because the head and the heart were not there. So it just, you know, height, hair color, eye color, facial bone structure, those are, you know, 12% of the story.

Karen Covy: 1:10:40

Yeah. So let's talk about something you brushed on a little bit about, you know, when you start dating like this guy in one of the stories, he was still legally married. I mean, how do you feel about that? When should people get back on the horse, so to speak?

Laurie Gerber: 1:10:58

It's obviously an individual choice. Um, I think I don't have a moral issue with dating while you're still married, unless you do, or unless that's going to get you in trouble in your divorce proceedings, which it definitely can. You'd know more about that. But I don't think you should find the last love of your life, your long-term companion while you're still married, preferably. Many people do. I think the exception proves the rule. It is possible to find that love of your life during that period, but I don't think it's smart to look for it.

Karen Covy: 1:11:33

Yeah, I 100% on the same page. I mean, and again, circumstances dictate personal preference and personality and all the things play a role. But um, for most people, dating while you are still married just complicates the devil out of your divorce. It confuses your kids, it complicates the legal proceedings, or it can. And here's the problem: you don't know if it's going to until you do it and everything explodes, and then you go, Oh, yes I shouldn't have done that, right? Right. So I always I'm not a fan of dating before you're legally divorced. But that having been said, um, sometimes divorces drag on for years.

Laurie Gerber: 1:12:21

Yes, that's right. And those are the exceptions where I don't think you're supposed to sit on the bench forever. But I also I want to throw in one more, you know, factor to consider, which is that if you are looking for the long-term love of your life, which I don't recommend after you get a divorce, I recommend you actually see the world, right? And get your groove back and have fun and learn and try different things. I mean, that's what you've been um sheltered from for all the years that you were married. So, I don't recommend looking for the last love of your life while you have divorce or even directly after your divorce, depending on how long it takes. But you when you are ready again to look for that love of your life, your long-term committed partner, you want someone who's also looking for someone single. Like, most people would like to be with a single person if they're looking for their long-term committed partner. So, who are you attracting if you're not?

Karen Covy: 1:13:15

That's a very good point. I had not thought of that, but you make a really good point.

Laurie Gerber: 1:13:21

Think very deeply about these things. I just say, like, you're the love of your life is looking for you when you're available, right? The love of your life doesn't want you unavailable because you're in the middle of drama, because you're still totally enmeshed with this other person, because you're still heartbroken and angry, because you're still married, right? This the love of your life wants you free and available.

Karen Covy: 1:13:44

Yeah. Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. But talk to me about because I know you work a lot with um, well, you work exclusively with women, right? Or am I?

Laurie Gerber: 1:13:54

I mean the truth, Karen, is I work with everybody, but my niche, quote unquote, my marketing is geared towards women over 50. But I've been working with everybody, all genders, all ages, all everything for over 20 years.

Karen Covy: 1:14:07

So okay. Well, let's talk about the biggest mistake that you see your clients making, male or female, whoever they are, no matter what their age, but the biggest mistake they make that keeps them from their happily ever after.

Laurie Gerber: 1:14:23

Oh my gosh, this is this just kill again, shouting from the rooftops. Don't dive into online dating before you're ready. It really is like jumping into the pool when you don't know how to swim. Like maybe you'll figure it out and maybe you'll survive, and maybe you'll even enjoy it. But 90% of the time you're gonna have a near-drowning experience and not like the water anymore. And that analogy is so real.

Karen Covy: 1:14:48

I hope you've enjoyed this very special episode of the Off the Fence podcast. If you did, don't forget to like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube station, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.