Episode Description - I Was Married to a Covert Narcissist for 29 Years. Now I'm Free.
What happens when the man who appears perfect to everyone else treats you like garbage behind closed doors? That’s what happens when you’re married to a covert narcissist.
In this painfully honest episode, Mia Hanks (not her real name) shares how – as a young woman - she was initially drawn in by her husband’s charm, love bombing, and big promises. After they were married, though, all that changed.
Over time, Mia started to see subtle red flags—like her husband’s lack of empathy, need for control, and deep insecurity.
Mia describes how her life became centered around keeping her husband happy, even as her own health, identity, and independence crumbled. She opens up about the physical and psychological toll that the long-term abuse and isolation had on her and how she finally found the courage to leave her husband after her children grew up.
Mia also talks about her painful realization that her husband had meticulously structured their finances to ensure her complete financial dependence. He also made sure she was positioned to get the least amount of money possible in their divorce - in spite of their considerable wealth.
If you suspect you may be married to a covert narcissist this episode will empower you to break free of your current situation and start reclaiming yourself as a human. (And if you know someone else who is in this situation, please share this episode!)
As Mia so clearly says: no matter how long you’ve been in it, you are never as trapped as you think.
Show Notes
About Mia
Mia is a survivor of narcissistic abuse. She was married to a covert narcissist for 29 years and in 2024 she published an award-winning memoir titled Bride-Made. She is hoping that her story can help spread awareness about narcissism and help other victims find their voices.
Connect with Mia
You can follow Mia on X at NPD and Me and on Instagram at NPD and Me. You can also grab Mia’s award winning book Bride-Made: A Memoir.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Mia
- Mia Hanks married at 21 and spent 29 years with a covert narcissist who appeared perfect to the outside world but was controlling and manipulative behind closed doors.
- The relationship began with typical narcissistic love bombing - excessive attention, grand gestures, and wonderful gifts that masked red flags like lack of empathy and self-centeredness.
- Once they were married, his behavior slowly worsened through calculated control tactics, including isolating her from others and making everything revolve around his happiness and needs.
- Despite appearing wealthy, her husband controlled all major finances, keeping accounts only in his name and ensuring she had no access to significant money or credit cards.
- Living under constant stress, Mia experienced severe physical symptoms including chronic pain, panic attacks, headaches, and other health issues that dramatically improved after leaving.
- Once they had children, Mia’s husband became jealous of his own children and tried to pit Mia against them, creating additional stress and manipulation within the family dynamic.
- After 27 years, Mia finally left when her children graduated high school, moving in with her parents while her health was failing from the toxic environment.
- Around the time she left, Mia researched and discovered narcissism, which provided life-changing validation that the problems weren't her fault.
- The divorce took nearly a year and cost tens of thousands of dollars, requiring multiple attorneys including a tax specialist to protect her from potential future financial liability.
- Mia wrote an award-winning memoir titled "Bridemaid" and now advocates for narcissistic abuse awareness, emphasizing that victims are never truly "stuck" and can escape with proper resources and support.
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Transcript
I Was Married to a Covert Narcissist for 29 Years. Now I'm Free
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
narcissist, financial abuse, validation, freedom
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Mia Hanks
Karen Covy: 0:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence Stories. This is a very special mini-series of the Off the Fence Podcast where, every Friday for the next few weeks, we're going to bring you stories of people who have gone through a divorce and not only survived but have gone on to thrive afterwards. Real people, real stories and, hopefully, real inspiration. If you enjoy this series, please do me a big favor and let me know. This is honestly a bit of an experiment and if enough people love it, we'll keep doing it. But in order to know whether you want more stories, you've got to let us know what you think. So, leave a comment wherever you're watching or listening. And now let's get to our story. Enjoy
Karen Covy: 0:58
With me today I have a bit of an unusual guest. The guest, the name she's known by, is Mia Hanks, and she is a survivor of narcissistic abuse. Mia was married to a covert narcissist for 29 years and in 2024, she published an award-winning memoir titled Bridemaid, and you can see the cover of the book here on the screen today. By appearing on this podcast and sharing her story, Mia is hoping that she can spread awareness about narcissism and help other victims find their voices. Mia, welcome to the show.
Mia Hanks
Thank you for having me.
Karen Covy
I am excited to have you and excited to hear about your story, so let's just dive in and start there. How did this journey begin for you?
Mia Hanks: 1:47
So, it began many years ago. I was 21 years old when I got married and I think I was quite naive, I had come from a very sheltered background and I didn't know about narcissism. I didn't know such a thing existed, and so I certainly wasn't on the lookout for it. And you know, before I knew it newly married and I was kind of, you know, I just sort of got engrossed in this relationship and a couple of kids came along and I felt stuck, you know, and I knew I wasn't happy, you know a good way into my marriage, but I just felt like there wasn't anything I could do about it and so, yeah, I remained stuck for quite a lot of years.
Karen Covy: 2:35
So let's go back. You know, you said you got married. You were what? 21?
Mia Hanks
21, yes.
Karen Covy
How long had you known your husband before you got married?
Mia Hanks: 2:45
I had known him for two years.
Karen Covy: 2:48
And during that time were you dating the whole two years?
Mia Hanks: 2:52
Yeah, we had. We dated for two years and yeah.
Karen Covy: 2:56
So what was that like? Because obviously you're here today to talk about the end of your relationship and we will get to that and how your husband turned out to be a covert narcissist. But I'm sure, like you said, you were naive, you didn't know that in the beginning. So tell me, what was your courtship like? What was he like?
Mia Hanks: 3:20
Well, he fits the bill for the typical narcissist. He is a textbook narcissist and, like most, he began this relationship with love bombing, you know, and that is something that all narcissists will do. It's over the top attention, it's grand gestures, wonderful gifts too good to be true, and that's kind of what I experienced. You know, it was this love bombing stage, and of course, I didn't know about love bombing and it all looked great to me, you know. It looks like here's a guy that that's just crazy about me, you know, and how can this, how can this be a bad thing? He's, you know, he's, he's setting himself up for great success in life, he's smart, he's got it all together and he's showering me with attention and gifts and wonderful things, and so, yeah, that's really what the courtship looked like.
Karen Covy: 4:16
So was he able to sustain that love bombing for two whole years?
Mia Hanks: 4:22
You know mostly, but I do look back and I mean, of course it came in phases, but I do look back and you know, I was seeing some narcissistic traits. I just didn't know what they were. I was seeing that lack of empathy. He truly could not see things from other people's perspectives and he really couldn't feel, you know, feel for someone genuinely, and I was seeing that. But again, you know, I thought, well, it's a personality quirk, you know he'll grow up whatever, and I just kind of ignored it.
Karen Covy: 4:57
So, I don't know, I don't want to give, don't want you to give away too much, much because I know that you're trying to keep your identity from coming out. So please tell me if I overstep. But what I am curious about is, looking backwards, from where you sit now, knowing about narcissism and knowing about a covert narcissist, you can say, yeah, I saw a lack of empathy. But what did that look like? Because whatever it was at the time wasn't enough to like throw up red flags for you, or at least not read enough flags to make you go. I don't know if I want to do this. So, when you say you saw little bits of lack of empathy, what were you noticing?
Mia Hanks: 5:43
I think more. You know, earlier on, it was just I could sense that he couldn't really put himself in someone else's shoes. You know, I just didn't sense that there was a genuine concern for other people, although he can put on a good show, but it just something didn't feel completely genuine to me. And the other thing that I noticed early on and it kind of all ties in with that empathy thing was that he had to be the center of attention. Everything had to be about him. For him it was all about if he was having fun, if he was having a good time and how things made him feel and so, yeah, it was very much centered on him all the time.
Mia Hanks: 6:28
Again, I didn't see that as a bad thing, necessarily, more of just kind of quirky. You know, I wrote a lot of the stuff off as just being quirky because it wasn't affecting our relationship enough that it would be, like you say, a huge red flag. It was just things I noticed but just didn't think it was that big of a deal. And again, that was just me being naive.
Karen Covy: 6:54
Yeah, Did you feel at the time? Did you feel like he had empathy for you?
Mia Hanks: 7:01
You know I did, I did, I thought. You know, I thought he genuinely cared about me and I don't think he did. You know, looking back, I think it was just all a show, because not long after we got married, you know, things were that empathy just got a little bit less and a little bit less. And I noticed early on, for example, if I were to get sick, you know, if I had the flu or something, rather than being sympathetic toward me or trying to help me or feel bad that I was feeling bad, his reaction would be to be angry with me because I was sick, because, you see, it inconvenienced him, it just wasn't on his agenda for that day. And again, it's all about him. So, I did notice that I mean, that kind of thing started very, very early in in the marriage. And yeah, we're married and and I'm, I'm young and I'm eager to make this work, and so, like all these little things, I just kind of sweep it under the rug and say, well, it'll get better, it'll get better in time.
Karen Covy: 8:10
You know. So what else did you see? So you, this man comes. He looks you know too good to be true. He's showering with you with attention and gifts. You get married. Then take us through what happened after that. You saw that, for example, when you were sick, he didn't respond with any kind of true, genuine caring. What else started to happen? How did the fairy tale start to unravel?
Mia Hanks: 8:39
It kind of was a slow process. I mean, I think narcissists are very calculating and you know it's not overnight, it doesn't all fall apart, it's sort of like a snowball effect and really the more they get away with, the bolder they become. And so that's what I experienced. But you know, yeah, that lack of empathy, I noticed that he started to get more and more controlling. You know, noticed that he started to get more and more controlling, you know very controlling of my attention and my time. He really didn't like me spending time with people other than him. You know, he was just very much he, everything was about him.
Mia Hanks: 9:16
So, if I couldn't be happy unless he was happy, you know. And it just became this dynamic that I fell into and I learned to, it became my normal, I learned to live that way. Well, he comes first, his happiness comes first. We do what he wants to do and I can only be happy if he's happy, because if he's not happy he makes everyone miserable. So, you become almost a slave to this person's. You know what they want and it's a difficult life. But again, I was young and it became my normal and I didn't like it, but it just became the way it was, it was all about him and I, just, you know, I kind of gave up.
Karen Covy: 10:01
Now, how long were you married before your kids came along?
Mia Hanks: 10:06
I think about seven years it was. It was quite a long time yeah.
Karen Covy: 10:11
So, in that time period were you working outside the house?
Mia Hanks: 10:16
I worked just a little bit, like maybe the first two years we were married and then, no, I was not working, I was home, and you know, and I think that definitely I was not, you know, I was not real happy in my marriage, obviously before my kids came along. But I sort of had that thought that well, maybe after we have kids he'll get better. And of course I mean very naive thinking and just really not understanding what I was dealing with.
Karen Covy: 10:47
Yeah, so you know, you've mentioned a few times about him being a covert narcissist. That's how you refer to him. What do you mean by covert narcissist, as opposed to just a regular narcissist?
Mia Hanks: 11:01
Yeah, so you know a narcissist. I mean, they all have the same um, the same agenda. Basically, everything's about me, Uh, but the covert, they're considered one of the more dangerous types because to the outside world, um, these people appear generous and kind and empathetic, um, and just such wonderful, all-around people. They're oftentimes thought of as being very humble, they're very generous, and oftentimes they like to play the victim as well, but behind closed doors they're a complete like. You know what you would think of a narcissist. They're manipulative, they're controlling, they're self-centered, everything has to bow before them.
And so the covert, they’re very dangerous because the victim oftentimes can’t garner a lot of support. Because everyone else just sees this great guy, I mean this father of the year, husband of the year, how can he be bad? So it puts the victim in a very tough position because then you start to think everyone else thinks he’s great maybe it’s just me?
Karen Covy
So is that kind of how you think your husband was everyone on the outside thought he was person of the year?
Mia Hanks: 12:17
Yeah, more or less, I would say, you know, and I think that kind of illustrates was illustrated after our divorce and the whole smear campaign that the narcissists will always engage in. You know most of our mutual quote unquote friends went to his side and you know they couldn't believe I guess that he was really not a great guy. So yeah, I think they people genuinely did feel like he was. He was pretty great.
Karen Covy: 12:47
How did your family feel about it?
Mia Hanks: 12:50
They were concerned straight away. You know they saw things they didn't like in the very beginning. My parents were the only people that really got a good inside look at what was going on in our house and yeah, I mean, they definitely had great concerns and talked to me about it through the years and you know, like the perfect narcissistic victim that I was, my response every time was to defend him. You know, I defended him, I held up for him, just like I did. You know, in any event, where I thought he was being attacked, I would be his defense and you know I would say, oh he just he has this stressful job and you know he's not usually like this and it'll get better. And yeah, I just held up for him.
Karen Covy: 13:38
Did his image or facade or whatever you want to call it, to the outside world? Did that crack in any other places? I mean, I know you saw a very different human when he was home, but did it start to at any time affect his work or his other relationships with friends, if he had any? Were you the only victim, or was his world? Was he victimizing somebody else too?
Mia Hanks: 14:05
I don't think he was. You know he, he has a lot of acquaintances, but at the time we were married he really didn't have any friends, you know, and I think that's you know, that's not uncommon for a narcissist he really didn't have any. You know, true friends I don't think. I mean it seemed a bit superficial as far as it affecting his work or anything like that. It didn't seem to. You know, he seemed to be able to wear that mask really well to that outside world. And so I do believe, yeah, I was his only victim.
Karen Covy: 14:41
So here he is. You know you've been married seven years. He looks like husband of the year. You're kind of seeing that things aren't exactly as he portrays them to everyone else. Along comes your children. Did the relationship change when you had children?
Mia Hanks: 14:59
Um, yeah, I mean it just further deteriorated, you know, because now we're bringing kids into the mix and narcissists are often jealous of their own children, and he was no exception to that, you know, he was jealous of the time I spent with my kids and so it created a very difficult dynamic and probably at that point I just sort of went into this day to day survival mode, you know, and trying to please everybody and keep everybody happy, and it was a tough. It was a tough job. He would like to kind of pit me against my kids, you know, and sort of make me choose, like who's more important, you know, and he was very jealous of his kids and I don't know that he is now, because now I'm not in the picture, but yeah, when they were growing up it was, it was tough. I felt spread very thin.
Karen Covy: 15:51
And so you went along like in that manner, for how long?
Mia Hanks: 15:57
Well, yeah, I mean until my kids both got out of high school, and then at that point I left.
Karen Covy: 16:07
Let me ask you a question. Did you know that you were going to leave before your kids graduated high school? In other words, were you just waiting for them to graduate so that you could get out on purpose, or did things just you had enough at that point?
Mia Hanks: 16:22
You know, I don't think I had any like hard plans to leave. I knew that I wanted to, but my feeling was I'm stuck here and I've been in this marriage for so long and I'm so invested in this and there's no way out. And what would people think right after this many years? And you worry about there's an embarrassment factor and how would I even begin to tell people why I left? Because who's going to believe me? So, I definitely wanted to leave. And then, of course, you've got to think about the kids and you know the whole idea of sharing custody. I could not wrap my head around that. And so, yeah, I think it just everything fell into place after the kids got out of school and I just, you know, I had a, I had a, basically a. The situation arose that I felt like I could get out and I sort of just took the chance when I saw it. But no, I don't think I had really been planning it. I wanted to but didn't think I would ever get the opportunity to.
Karen Covy: 17:25
What tell me about your financial situation at that point? Were you still? Were you the stay at home mom, even as your kids were going off to school?
Mia Hanks: 17:35
Yes, yes, I was.
So you know, here I am. I, you know I had worked a little bit very early in the marriage and I had been at home and he was the breadwinner obviously he made all the money and he controlled all the money. So you know, that's another factor as far as it's not that easy to pick up and leave when, and I didn't realize that I was the victim of financial abuse, which is something else that narcissists will, will, will do. I had my own debit card and I had access to the daily checking account and I, you know, my husband is a very wealthy man and you know I had my little debit card and I could basically buy whatever I wanted. You know, I wasn't a big spender anyway, but I had anything I wanted. So financial abuse seemed preposterous. You know, no, I'm not being financially abused until I left, and then everything it all came to light and I realized I don't have access to anything. So, yeah, that was eye-opening.
Karen Covy: 18:46
What do you mean when you say you don't have access to anything? Once you left it, you started to see the financial abuse. What exactly, I guess? What do you mean by financial abuse, and what did you see when you left that you didn't see while you were there?
Mia Hanks: 19:02
So, you know he has all these accounts and all this. You know he has a lot of wealth. I didn't realize that I can't access any of it. I mean, he has everything fixed to where only he can access the big money, the big accounts.
Mia Hanks: 19:20
I have my debit card and my access to the day-to-day checking account, which is just our daily expenses, you know, but like big expenses that would come from another account which I can't access. And so, and interestingly enough, I didn't even have a credit card. Now, I didn't question it at the time, um, because, you know, I was just doing fine with my debit card, um, but I, I never, I never questioned it and, um, I, I left and I moved in with my parents, you know, and we're having this discussion about I need to get a lawyer. Well, where's that retainer going to come from? Because divorce attorneys are not cheap, and not only did I need a lawyer, I needed a good lawyer, right, because I'm going to be up against. You know it's going to be a fight. And so, to be able to retain an attorney, it was like, well, how am I going to do that? Because you know, the day-to-day checking account ain't going to cover attorney's fees. Well, I can't access any money, you know, from any other account. So I didn't realize, but he, I believe, purposely set things up that way Because it really prevents me from leaving him, it prevents me from being able to get my own place.
Mia Hanks: 20:38
How am I going to? If I want to get an apartment? How am I going to do that? I got to show pay stubs. I've got to show proof of income. You know I've got to do all this stuff. I don't have any of that. How would I pay the rent out of the just the little daily checking account? You know, how do I get a lawyer to file for divorce? So he has me blocked, or so he thinks at every turn that I'm really stuck financially. Fortunately, my parents were able to help me out in this interim stage. But yeah, financial abuse is real and I think a lot of times women don't realize it.
Karen Covy: 21:11
Yeah, I think, for those people who are out there listening and perhaps wondering hmm, I wonder if that's the situation that I'm in. I don't care who you are or what your situation is. In this day and age you should have credit cards. I mean, I interviewed someone who had no access to any cash. I mean she could basically buy groceries and that was it. Never had a credit card, no checking account, no nothing. And when she left, she had no credit history. She couldn't. I mean, to your point, how do you get an apartment when you have? She had no credit rating. Her credit rating was zero.
Mia Hanks: 21:53
Right, I mean I. And the funny thing is we um I, as I later found out, when, you know, he has to turn over all this financial information for the divorce um, I had a credit card but uh, he, he held it. I mean, he didn't give it to me and not that he was worried that I was going to go out and, you know, be a big spender, because I'm just by nature I'm not. He did not give it to me because it was a control thing. You know, if I had a credit card, it just gave me some freedom, you know, and he didn't want me to have that freedom. He kept a very tight rein and I didn't realize it at the time, you know, I thought I had it made, it was all good, and I never dreamt that he had those financials set up the way he did. And it was pretty disheartening, because then you think, well, how long has he been kind of planning for this, you know, impending catastrophe, I mean, this has been in the back of his mind that I might leave him one day, and he was completely set up for it, he was ready.
Karen Covy: 23:00
What do you mean when you say he was completely set up for it? I mean, did he have all the accounts were only in his name, were you like? How? What do you mean by that?
Mia Hanks: 23:11
Yeah, so everything was basically in his name, yeah, and it was just. You know, he had things set to where you know. He had trust accounts and all this stuff and he was careful not to commingle any of these accounts such that if there was ever a divorce, I couldn’t touch that stuff, certain things that are not on the table in a divorce, and so he was very careful to keep quote, unquote his money completely separate from our money, never commingling, so that I would never have an outlet to get to get into his bigger accounts. So, I think he just he was always protecting himself, you know, and, and like I say, everything was basically in his name.
Mia Hanks: 23:59
And you know I, I mean we did have joint accounts but I would had to have contacted his financial broker to access those accounts and you know, the minute I do that, that broker's going to call him and say, hey, you know, his broker was very, you know, was very loyal to him and so I wasn't even going to go there, you know. But yeah, he had it. He was very secure in how he had his finances set up so that I couldn't file for divorce and, you know, take half of what he had. There was no chance that was going to happen.
Karen Covy: 24:37
Did he come from money?
Mia Hanks
He did yes.
Karen Covy
Okay, so if I'm understanding you, he made sure that the money that he inherited or got from wherever it came from, that that was separate, so it was never considered marital property, correct.
Mia Hanks: 24:49
Exactly. He was very careful with the whole marital property thing. It didn't even cross my mind, but it was clearly on his mind all the time and making sure not to commingle anything. And so basically what he did is all the money that he spent, even for himself. He used, quote, unquote, our money to do that. He would never touch his money, um, and so he yeah, it worked out well for him in the end.
Karen Covy: 25:22
So, I'm curious you were in this marriage for decades, um what, what finally, was the tipping point, what prompted you to leave? You said you had an opportunity and you took it. What? Can you tell me a little more about what happened?
Mia Hanks: 25:41
Yeah, you know, I was my physical health was failing so drastically, just living under the stress and the fight, the fight or flight mode. You know that I was living under it. I was suffering from chronic pain, panic attacks, headaches, stomach aches, I mean you name it, and I was literally falling apart and it's just everything kind of came together. You know, my kids both graduated, we decided that we were going to downsize our home and again, you know, I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe this could be a new beginning for us, right? Maybe things will get better. Of course, I've been telling myself this at this point for like 27 years, but I'm thinking, ok, maybe a move, you know, maybe this will be good. So we decided to downsize, we sold our home and it was really in that, in that moment, that things just got so bad, because you know it's stressful, moving, selling a house. And when his stress level got up, he got orders of magnitude worse with his behavior. So he was just, you know, at an all-time horrible state in his behavior. My health was falling apart, our kids had both graduated and it just seemed like I got to go. You know, I got an opportunity and we've just sold the house and you know I'm out from under that and I think I think I've just got to go and that's what I did.
Karen Covy: 27:06
And so you moved in with your parents. What was his response or reaction?
Mia Hanks: 27:13
Well, I didn't really tell him I was leaving. I more or less just told him that I needed a break. You know the selling the house and all of this, we'd had all this stress and so I said I just need a mental break, I'm really not doing well. Of course he didn't care, but I said I'm going to stay with my parents for a little bit and just clear my head. And I knew, I knew that I wasn't coming back, but I didn't tell him that because I was scared, I was petrified of what his response would be.
Mia Hanks: 27:44
And you know, at first he was. You know, he kind of ran hot and cold, he would be mean and he'd be trying to be nice and try to get me to come back. And then he just went back and forth. But when he discovered that I just was not going to come back, then he yeah, he got very, very vengeful at that point and, you know, started draining the bank account and all kinds of crazy stuff, you know, in an attempt to show me hey, if you know, this is what's going to happen if you don't come back to me.
Karen Covy: 28:14
How did you know he was draining the bank account?
Mia Hanks: 28:17
Well, he would. He stopped making deposits into that account and so, you know, I would check the balance and it'd be, like you know, $50. And I thought what in the world is going on? Well, he was trying to keep that account because it was the only account I had access to. He was keeping it as low as he possibly could because he thought, well, you know, hey, if I can't buy groceries and I can't feed myself, maybe I'll have no choice but to come back to him. And you know that didn't work because my parents stepped in and said you know, we'll handle your financials until you get going on this divorce. So that's what we did.
Karen Covy: 28:56
So how long? I'm curious, how long was it between when you left to move in you moved in with your parents and the time you actually filed for divorce?
Mia Hanks: 29:06
I waited a year to file for divorce. Yeah, and you know, people around me were saying don't give him this long, just don't do it, because he is you don't know what he's doing behind the scenes. And I was still living in a fog, you know, and I said, no, I think it's, I think he'll be fair, and you know he's, yeah, it'll all be okay. But it took me a year. I was in therapy for a year and it really it did. It took that long for me to get up the courage really to file those papers. It was a scary, it was a scary thought and everyone around me that was trying to advise me and I wasn't listening to them. They were exactly right. He was moving money, he was doing all kinds of stuff. So when those divorce papers when I hit him with those papers, he was ready to go.
Karen Covy: 29:59
So in that time period, what happened with your children? I mean, what did you tell them? I'm just staying with grandma and grandpa?
Mia Hanks: 30:04
Yeah, I mean I did in in the in the beginning I told them that and you know they knew that there was obviously some tension. But as time went on, you know I did tell them I'm going to file for divorce. I I you know. On, you know I did tell them I'm going to file for divorce. I you know, and I was. It was interesting, they were actually very happy for me. They both have a relationship with their father, even today, of course. I mean he's their dad, but they fully, fully understand who he is and they understand now you know what I was living through and they were glad. In fact, my oldest told me she said, wow, I wish you had done this like 15 years ago. And I said, well, you know I do too, but hindsight is 20-20. And you know, I thought I was making the right decision to keep the family together and in retrospect it was not the best decision, but I thought it was. But no, my kids have been very supportive from day one and I've been really lucky.
Karen Covy: 31:05
Actually, you are really lucky because I know a lot of what will happen in a lot of situations if you had left and your children were younger. Then the narcissist tries to triangulate and separate you from the children and pit one person against the other and it can be even uglier. So it's good to know that at least you know you kept your relationship with your kids and that's. That's huge.
Mia Hanks: 31:34
Yeah, it really is. I mean, they, they struggled growing up, they struggled to have a relationship with their father. So, you know, even had they been younger, I think I still would have maintained that relationship, although he would have tried to triangulate he likes to do that but they, you know, they always had a strained relationship with him. And so, I guess, you know, in some, in some manner, that helped me when I did leave, because they understood why I was leaving, you know, and being older, I could have these discussions with them, and I, of course, couldn't have done that when they were younger. So it did make it easier the fact that they were not minor children.
Karen Covy: 32:18
Okay, so you leave at some point. You know, a year later you file. I'm curious at what point in your journey did you realize that your husband was a narcissist?
Mia Hanks: 32:33
It was around the time that I had decided I was going to have to leave and I started doing a lot of research. You know, I was just. Things were falling apart so rapidly, I was so miserable and I just started doing research on thinking maybe this isn't me, you know, maybe this is him. And this is like 27 years into the marriage. I'm just starting to think maybe I'm not the problem and I just start Googling things like toxic relationships and, you know, just trying to figure out what's wrong with my marriage, and I came across narcissism and it was like, you know, it changed my life. It really did.
Mia Hanks: 33:11
In that moment it was like this is what I have been dealing with and all of a sudden I had all this validation that it's not me, it's him. I mean, every box checked and it was like I had answers to all these things that never made sense. The past, you know, 20-some-odd years. Everything finally made sense to me. So, um, yeah, it was right about the time that I was leaving and um, it all just kind of came together and that I was leaving and it all just kind of came together and I finally had a name for what I had been living with.
Karen Covy: 33:43
Okay, so you figure it out. You start to figure it out. You leave. A year later you file for divorce. Then what happens? Tell me about how the divorce was. How long did it take? How much did it cost? Was it ugly? Was it peaceful? What happened?
Mia Hanks: 33:59
The divorce took a year, or just under a year, which? I guess, for a high conflict divorce, it wasn't terrible. It was stressful. Of course, we went complete no contact, which great. That worked out well. But yeah, it was ugly. I mean, like I say, he kept that bank account as low as he could. Of course, we had to put some parameters in place once I filed and he was required to make such and such deposits into that account so that I would have enough money to buy groceries and that sort of thing. But yeah, just when all his financials came to light and I saw how little control I had over things and how my name wasn't on things, and it was disheartening, it really was. But the divorce, I mean, I survived it.
Mia Hanks: 34:57
It didn't turn out like I thought. Um, as far as expenses, yeah, it was very expensive Divorces are, I didn't realize how expensive divorces were, um, but yeah, I mean tens of thousands, of thousands, of thousands of dollars, um, but you know, I, I, I needed a good attorney and um, you know, know, I feel like I was well represented. I had to bring extra people onto my team just to feel like I was completely covered. One thing I did someone a friend recommended to me and I had never considered this and it was probably the best decision I made. But a friend told me, you know you should really get a tax attorney and I thought that seems strange, but okay, cause you know I trusted him and he's actually an accountant and I said, okay, I think I'll do that.
Mia Hanks: 35:48
And so I reached out and I brought a tax attorney onto my team and you know it was like a second set of eyes and I feel like, you know, financially the divorce did not turn out like I thought it would, but I feel like I put up, gave my best effort by, you know, going the extra mile and bringing on this tax attorney, and he was able to help tremendously in one area, which was the innocent spouse document.
Mia Hanks: 36:19
I had never heard of that and I came into this divorce really not understanding divorce, I have to say. Basically he drafted up a document that stated you know, if my ex-husband ever gets in any kind of tax trouble for hidden accounts, hidden money, who knows what, I am innocent and it took some doing to get him to sign that document but finally we had to revise the language multiple times but he finally did sign it and that really gives me a lot of peace of mind. I thought that was worth the money that I paid to the tax attorney, if nothing else, just to get that signature on that document.
Karen Covy: 37:03
Well, you said a couple of times now that the divorce didn't turn out financially like you thought it would. What do you mean by that?
Mia Hanks: 37:13
I thought I was going to again being naive, I thought we just were going to split the money 50-50. And it doesn't work that way, you know. So basically, the little, the bit that he had cordoned off, that was, quote unquote, community property. And that's what he had been doing this whole year is shifting stuff around. And so he got that community pool as low as he could.
Mia Hanks: 37:37
And in a divorce you split the community property. So you know, 50%. That was a joke. I mean thinking that I was going to get 50% of his money. It didn't work that way. So I got, you know, a little over 50% of the community, which is fine. I mean I'm good, it's all good. It's just the idea, the idea of the actual percent. If you consider his net worth and some of that money that I helped him build, you know, being the stay-at-home mom and raising his kids so he could go out and work, and a lot of that money did not end up in the community pool. So you know, I understand trust and I understand inheritance and all of that, whatever, but there's still a lot of money that was not in those two categories that somehow disappeared from the community pool. So yeah, it just gets very complicated. And you know, I came out, I came out. Good, I can't complain. I can just say it wasn't fair.
Karen Covy: 38:46
What, at the end of the day, did you? Were you able to settle your divorce, or did you have to go all the way to trial?
Mia Hanks: 38:53
We settled, we went to mediation and we did our mediation via Zoom. So, we were in two separate buildings. We weren't even in the same building. It was a 10-hour mediation. Yeah, it was brutal and you know, we thought about going to court at the end of those 10 hours. We really did.
Mia Hanks: 39:17
You know, the settlement that he was agreeing to was it just wasn't, wasn't fair. So, at the last minute, my lawyer and I were sitting at the table and we started, we pulled out a calculator and we started calculating okay, how much is it going to cost us to go to court, you know, and we looked at the extra-legal fees and the extra time and all of this. And then, you know, my lawyer was telling me, I think, you know, here's the max percentage that a judge is going to award you, and when we, when we figured up all the numbers, it just it wasn't going to pay out. I mean, yeah, I would have come out with more money, but I would be spending more money and it was, it was a wash in the end. So we ended up settling for less than we wanted, but you know, she didn't feel like a judge was going to award me enough more than it would make. It would make sense, you know.
Karen Covy: 40:15
How did you feel? Just out of curiosity, how did you feel about the single day mediation? It's what I call marathon mediation, and I'm just curious, because there are lots of ways you can do mediation and more and more people are going to this full day marathon thing. How did you experience that? Would you recommend that to other people? Or would you say, break it up in chunks?
Mia Hanks: 40:41
You know, I didn't mind the marathon I did not want to give my ex and his attorney, who really was kind of a narcissist himself I mean, they were kind of like the room was a little small for both of their egos. I really didn't want to give them like overnight to regroup and re-strategize. I mean I think they would have tried to pull more strings and, you know, do more shady stuff if they had, you know, if they saw where we were, what we were asking for, and then they could go and re-strategize all night long and come back with who knows what craziness. So I felt like the one day was most beneficial. I mean, obviously it's.
Mia Hanks: 41:26
And another narcissistic tactic they like to wear you down, and my ex-husband would he loved to do this. He would give me three- and four-hour lectures and just try to wear me down so that I would just say, okay, fine, you win, you know, and so I think that was kind of his end game here just draw it out, draw it out 10 hours, thinking I would just give up and kind of I did. But you know, we, we were, we were calculating and we figured, figured out all the numbers and it just made sense to settle.
Karen Covy: 42:04
So, looking back now, with the benefit of hindsight, with all you've been through, looking back at your younger self, what would you have counseled yourself to do?
Mia Hanks: 42:19
I think just be more aware of the nuances in a relationship. That, and I think that the biggest message I would give my younger self is you do not have to please everybody. You know that's. I think I think that got me. That's cost me a lot of peace of mind. You know thinking that I have to please everybody, and it's taken me a lot of years to realize that you don't have to.
Karen Covy: 42:49
And just out of curiosity, how is your health?
Mia Hanks: 42:53
You know, two weeks after I left, I saw the biggest change in my health. I felt like a new person and it just gave me that much more validation that I cannot live in that environment. I cannot live under that stress, walking on those eggshells, you know, high anxiety, tense all the time. My body was so tense all the time. So, yeah, two weeks later I felt like a new person and today it's. You know, I don't think I resemble who I was then. I actually take care of myself, I take time for myself. I listen to myself. You know I get enough rest. I just I do the things I need to do to make sure I'm well. So it's, it's a nice change.
Karen Covy: 43:35
Yeah, it sounds like it. It sounds like you have come full circle and are back to being you again.
Mia Hanks: 43:42
I feel like it. Yeah, I mean, it's been a long, long journey, but uh, I wouldn't um, you know, I don't regret leaving for even a second. Um, I have not missed the lifestyle even for one. I mean not, not for a second. So I mean I know I made the right decision.
Karen Covy: 44:05
That’s awesome. So okay, If people are interested in your story, if they're interested in your book, if they'd love, if they'd like to learn more, where's the best place that they can find you?
Mia Hanks: 44:16
Um, so my book is available on Amazon and also online Barnes and Noble, Walmart, target, all those places it's available in ebook and paperback format. And then I have a website, miajhanks.com, and there's a link on that website that will take you to Amazon to purchase.
Karen Covy: 44:35
Awesome. And for those of you who are listening or watching, everything will be linked in the show notes, so it will be nice and easy for you to access and find Mia. Mia, thank you so much for sharing your story and if there's one thing you could leave people with, young women with especially, what would you say to them?
Mia Hanks: 44:55
I would say you know, if you're in one of these types of relationships or marriages and you feel like you're stuck because that's certainly how I felt just know that you're not stuck. I mean, no matter how long you've been in that relationship, if you need to get out, you absolutely can get out. There are resources, there's help available and you're never stuck.
Karen Covy: 45:18
Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, thank you for taking the time to be here. I appreciate it. Thank you, and for those of you out there who are listening or watching, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you'd like to hear more episodes, just like it, do me a favor. Give this episode a thumbs up, leave a comment like, subscribe to the YouTube channel, subscribe to the podcast, and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
