Episode Description - How to Create an Airtight High Conflict Parenting Plan
The moment you’re begging over a $72 reimbursement is the moment you realize the paperwork isn’t the problem—the power dynamic is. That’s exactly what Samantha Boss, high-conflict parenting coach and mediator, discovered. Four years, three attorneys, five judges, and over $100k+ later Samantha’s initial “this is just paperwork” mindset morphed into years of litigation and financial abuse. Now, Samantha helps other moms who are battling high conflict divorces design airtight high conflict parenting plans built for conflict, not fantasy.
The difference between “standard parenting plans” and a high-conflict one isn't just a few extra pages. While typical parenting plans run from 4 -10 pages with a lot of vague, boilerplate language, Samantha’s detailed plans span 18-30 pages and cover everything from "diapers to diplomas."
In this podcast episode Samantha reveals the psychology behind negotiating with difficult exes, how to choose a lawyer who really understands high conflict divorce, and how to choose your divorce process intentionally.
If you’re embroiled in a high conflict divorce, and you have children, this episode is pure gold.
Show Notes
About Samantha
As a certified divorce mediator and coach, Samantha empowers moms to protect themselves and their children's future by providing expert guidance on parenting plans and navigating high-conflict exes.
Connect with Samantha
You can connect with Samantha on LinkedIn at Samantha Boss and on Facebook at The Ugly Truth of Divorce. You can follow Samantha on YouTube at The Ugly Truth of Divorce, on Instagram at The Ugly Truth of Divorce and on her podcast Divorce with Sam and Leah. You can find out how to work with Samantha at Samantha Boss.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Samantha
- Samantha Boss became a certified divorce mediator and high-conflict parenting coach after surviving her own four-year - 100K+ divorce.
- Samantha learned the hard way that vague parenting plans cause endless court battles.
- She works with her clients to create detailed, 18–30 page parenting plans covering everything from “diapers to diplomas.”
- She uses the “fluff method” to add negotiable extras so ex can remove them, preserving non-negotiables. This allows the exe the ability to feel control while protecting non-negotiables.
- Samantha stresses the importance of time, holidays, vacations, and decision-making being airtight in the plan.
- She advises parents to draft their own plan before hiring a lawyer and present it with respect using the “sandwich technique” (praise → request → praise).
- You should choose attorneys who value client input and understand high-conflict cases, and who value education and the use of a divorce coach.
- Mediation and collaboration can still be useful even in high-conflict cases (to gain information or partial agreements).
- Samantha went to court over 300 times, endured financial abuse and her personal turning point came after a $72 dispute, leading her to set boundaries and rebuild her confidence.
- Samantha offers parenting plan services, masterclasses, and a membership group, "The Next Chapter” with Leah Marie, where they are on a mission to help mothers protect themselves and their children during high-conflict divorces.
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Transcript
How to Create an Airtight High Conflict Parenting Plan
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
high-conflict divorce, parenting plan, narcissism, support
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Samantha Boss
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Samantha Boss. Sam is a certified divorce mediator and coach who empowers moms to protect themselves and their children's future by providing expert guidance on parenting plans and navigating high-conflict exes. Sam is also the co-creator of the Next Chapter membership and the co-host of the podcast and YouTube channel Divorce with Sam and Leah Sam. Welcome to the show.
Samantha Boss Guest
01:08
Thanks for having me, Karen. I'm excited to have this chat.
Karen Covy Host
01:11
I am really excited too, and I know you are a high conflict parenting coach and you've got all kinds of tools and resources for women who are going through a similar situation. But I'd like to start with your story. What got you into this line of work? I think I know, but if you could tell the audience.
Samantha Boss Guest
01:31
Well, like most, I went through a high conflict divorce and I didn't even know it was high conflict till I was knee deep in it. I didn't know what narcissism was. I didn't know what personality disorders were really. I'd never had anybody in my family like that. So, as I was navigating my divorce, I didn't know all the steps. I didn't understand protecting yourself. I didn't understand lawyers and how to pick a good one. I didn't understand any of the things. I mean I literally and I say this and I think people think I'm joking when I'm not I grew up watching Young and the Restless and when Jack Abbott would get divorced, he would hand somebody a blue trifold piece of paper, they would sign it and they would be divorced.
02:11
So, when I went through my divorce, I literally thought this is just us signing some paperwork and we're done. No, that's not it. So, I went through a four-year battle. We started with 50-50 because I had an attorney advise me that that would look good for me. So, I said yes to it, even though my ex-husband had never really watched the kids on his own. So, I said yes to it and my attorney at that time said this will be a quick six weeks, okay. Four years later we were finally divorced. Three attorneys later, five judges and $100,000 later I was divorced. Yes, that that was quick.
02:47
Uh, I just didn't know anything. It was I was the problem. I was uneducated, unversed in what I was going through. I didn't, I was naive. I thought if I just do this, it'll stop, if I just do this, it'll get easier, if I just do this. So, as I was going through the process, my mom, um, religious as she is, she said God has a plan for you. And I was like, well, it'd be nice if he would just, you know, get it over with and tell me what it is. And I was an educator at the time. And she said you never know. And so I got done with my divorce.
03:14
I started my co-parenting journey, which stayed just as toxic as everything else. And uh, I started helping my friends and family. They started asking questions as they were going through their divorce. Hey, what does this mean and what should I pick here and what should I do? And I got excited about helping them because I was able to fix the problems that I did wrong. So when, when there's something would come across, I'd be like, oh, don't do this, but do this instead. And so, I just got addicted to helping people, kind of fix the problems, so they didn't have to go through the struggle I did.
03:42
My current husband when I met him, he was like you have to do this for a living and I thought he was crazy. I was like there's no way. I'm just a teacher, I'm just a mom, and I think me having the teaching background is what's really accelerated me being good at this is because I know how to talk to people, I know how to manage multiple personalities like a classroom, and I just started creating a parenting plan that I knew would be perfect for high conflict and I worked on it for years and finally I just had the courage to start this business and help people, and it has been the most rewarding, life-changing event of my life. I know that God had a huge plan in just making sure that I went through hell and back so that I could make sure that people don't have to.
Karen Covy Host
04:20
Well, let's talk about that for a little bit, and I think what you do is so, so important, but people don't get it. If you haven't been through the high conflict divorce yourself, you don't understand what it is or how it's different. So, can you explain to the audience what's the difference between a high conflict parenting plan and just a parenting plan for a normal divorcing couple? What's different?
Samantha Boss Guest
04:47
The details, and I always err people on the side of caution, of making sure you see both versions before you pick the one you think is best for you. And I think it's great for people to have the intention of picking a parenting plan that works well for the dynamic they're having currently, which could be getting along. Maybe they decide you know what we're going to do, what's best for kids, and we're just going to put all of our errands aside and be cordial and be friendly and that sounds great. So a parenting plan that's built on that dynamic is very fluffy and very flexible and communication is up for discussion and making specifics about hey, it just says let's split the holidays and let's share the holidays and let's just let each other know about vacations and hey, when you need help, call me. It's very flexible and very non-committed to anything where a high conflict parenting plan is going to be this is your specific time, this is your specific vacation rules, these are your specific communication rules and it's down to factual, contractual language instead of being so fluffy and so easy gray area misinterpretation.
05:50
So, it's a drastic difference. It's worded completely different and, as we were talking before, I would much rather have every couple, whether they're getting along or not getting along. Have that safety precaution for the what if? What if, by chance, down the road, as co-parents, you hit a roadblock where you don't get along? I would much rather you have that detail to fall back on than this fluffy. Oh, we were going to be friends, but now we're not. And now we're left with very expensive paperwork that doesn't help us. It actually hurts us and causes more fights and arguments for the season that we're in now, which is not getting along.
Karen Covy Host
06:24
Yeah, how do you? I mean just give people an idea, if you can, what a normal parenting plan looks like in terms of length versus a high conflict. I mean, if you're talking about really getting into the details, how much does that add to a parenting plan?
Samantha Boss Guest
06:41
Well, I will tell you my personal parenting plan. I thought was great when I first got it. It was four pages and I was just so excited to be divorced after four years I was like, oh my gosh, look at this paperwork. I finally have paperwork. Three months after my divorce was finalized, I went to use said paperwork for a child's birthday to see what the rules were around the birthday. And it said nothing. And I'm like, whoa, it's gotta be like on a back page on it, like it's gotta be here somewhere.
07:07
So when you get a parenting plan from a judge or a lawyer that's not well-versed in high conflict it can range from four pages to maybe 10, but it's not about the length necessarily as what's in those paragraphs, but my parenting plan that I help produce for people as a just a custom guide to take to their attorney or their mediation, starts at 18 pages and can go up to 30. Because the whole point in high conflict parenting plans is to have detail and longevity. So if you're divorcing when your child is only three, we don't want that parenting plan to only be written to preschool, we want it to go to high school. So, I cover diapers to diplomas, I cover it all, because this is this thing where I think people need to have an eye-opening understanding that kids are not that different.
07:52
Your children, my children, we all did the basic things. We all went to daycare and we went to preschool, went to elementary, went to junior high, we started sports, we did activities, we got jobs, we got girlfriends and we graduated, like all kids do, basically the same thing. So, let's make a plan for all said same things. Now there's caveats and asterisks to that. I understand that. That's where that customization comes in.
Karen Covy Host
08:14
You know what would you say to somebody? Because negotiating that much stuff is a lot right. And when you're talking about negotiating it with someone who's high conflict, who you're already fighting with, I mean the idea of going through that negotiation is pretty darn daunting. You don't want to do that. And what if your ex just won't agree? What if your ex is saying, or soon-to-be ex is saying, look, no, I'm not going to agree to what they do in high school, they're in preschool now. No, I'm not going to agree. Or I'm not going to do that. Now what?
Samantha Boss Guest
08:49
Well, this comes down to a couple of things. First and foremost, who did you pick to be your salesman? Because your attorney has to be the salesman of this. It's kind of like when you, when you want to sell your car and you want to do it yourself, you pick between you and your husband who's better at bullshitting, who's better at really just saying the things that need to be said? And if that's not your, you don't do it right. You have your husband do it or you do it.
09:12
If you're the good, you have to pick the attorney that can go sell the idea that this parenting plan, with all of its detail and all of its longevity, will benefit your ex, your soon-to-be ex. It's going to benefit them greatly because it's going to protect that ex from you Crazy, because that's what they think right. Your ex thinks you're crazy, your ex thinks you're the problem in high conflict. So why not paint the picture that, hey, sir or ma'am, this detailed longevity parenting plan is going to protect you. It's going to save you money that she can't take you back to court. It's going to protect your time that she can't take you back to court. It's going to make sure you have all the responsibilities you want to have with your children and she can't take those away from you. So it's all about the sell from your attorney to the other side, and I'm not going to lie.
09:56
You also have to be willing to take some things out. So if I hand 25 pages over to a high conflict person and I know they're a control person and I know they're high conflict and I know they don't like me telling them what to do, I have to know that out of that 25 pages they might cross out three or four or five pages, and I have to be okay with that as long as I don't have the things that I can't live without crossed out. So, we add some fluff, we add some extra little things in there for them to have their power trip and say absolutely not, and we let them cross those out. And then we act like it's the biggest deal in the world. Oh my gosh, I can't believe you crossed that out. I can't believe you took that. We let them have the power and then at the end of the day, we have the five or six non-negotiables that we knew we could not let out are still there, but they had the last say, which is what high conflict people want. So, we call it the fluff method. We add a bunch of fluff or some fluff and we let them take it away, but we also attach some money items to that.
10:50
If you're dealing with high conflict, we know that money is their number one zinger. It gets their goat every time right. So, we add caveats like hey, if you give us this, we'll let up on this. If you give us this, we'll let up on this. And it could be hey, if you let us control the school, we'll pay for it. The private school, if you let us pick the extracurriculars, we'll pay for it. And we all know and this is a training we give inside of the next chapter if we detach money to us paying for it which in hindsight is always the safest thing to do, because you know it's guaranteed, because you know you're not going to miss your own bills and you get what you want, because high conflict people don't want to pay.
Karen Covy Host
11:26
Interesting. So how do you, when you're helping someone craft a parenting plan, how do you know what fluff to put in and which provisions are non-negotiable?
Samantha Boss Guest
11:44
Well, I’ve been doing this for over a decade. So I know absolutely what fluffs that we are allowing them to take out and I know the non-negotiables. First, non-negotiable you can just never let up on is detail on time. Your time with your children is the most valuable thing written into that parenting plan. Your time around, your visitation time, your holiday time and your vacation time those three things right there. You will never budge on. Decision-making. This is one that will always bring you back to court.
12:06
Your decision-making has to be airtight written in your parenting plan. It can't just say both parties will later determine, both parties will later discuss, both parties will later have a conversation. I mean, we're not having coffee folks, we're not buddies anymore. So those decisions again diapers to diplomas needs to be wrote out. And I go with the methodology of this. I would rather you pick a wrong decision for your child than no decision. Because if you leave the decisions out and this is again your salesmanship from your attorney to that attorney If you leave decisions out, you're guaranteeing one, if not two things you either have to work together, which you don't want to do because you don't like each other, or you're spending money to go back. Those are two things I don't want to do. Once I'm divorced. I don't want to work with you and I sure as hell don't want to be spending more money on you. So, I would rather pick a wrong decision. Maybe I say you know what we said, that we could do two extracurriculars with. Oh, I wish we would have put three, but I at least know we have two and I'm ready to suck it up and deal with two. Because I don’t want to talk with him, and I don’t want to spend more money. So, I’ll suck it up and deal with two. A wrong decision can be okay. A no decision you're guaranteeing more money spent or more heartache.
Karen Covy Host
13:03
I love that, but I want to talk about your salesman, ie your lawyer, right? Because in my experience, I mean and I practiced divorce law for decades right, every single lawyer has their own template. There is no one form that everybody uses. That would be a beautiful thing, but it doesn't exist, right? So, when you, as the client, come to an attorney and say, here, this is what I want, I mean, how do you …
Samantha Boss Guest
13:42
There's where you go wrong. You can't deliver it like that. So, we have to know personalities first and foremost. Okay, I didn't mean to interrupt you, I apologize, but we have to know personalities. Your attorney spent an ass load of money on their education, right? They got all those plaques on the wall. They're proud of themselves, they have an ego and they should because they did something that most people can't graduate from and do, right? So, if I walked in there and said, here my attorney is going to be offended and upset with me and not want to work with me, versus if I do this, I am so glad I got referred to you and that consultation that you made me feel so comfortable. I cannot wait to pick your brain Now, I have a learning style that's visual and my anxiety and squirrel brain of ADHD is all over the place right now. I'm petrified about my bills and petrified about my kids. So, I did the best thing I could, which is to take all the scrambled mess that's up here and I put it on paper. I have all of my thoughts down about what I think visitation should be, holidays. I wrote it all down for you. I would love for you to look at it and give me your opinion.
14:44
Do you think this is doable? Do you think this would work for my type of case? I'm asking it as a question to my attorney and I'm saying this is how I learn and this is how I work and this is how my brain functions is to have things on paper. Plus, I'd really like to cut down on money being spent on this divorce, so I thought the best thing to do is to tell you exactly what I want on paper and for you to try to go get as much of it as you possibly can using the skills you talked about in that consultation that you're a shark and you know how to negotiate and you're a master at it and you've worked with that office before and you know that attorney. So, I'm complimenting. It's a sandwich technique. I praise, I ask I praise with my attorney versus telling them what to do.
Karen Covy Host
15:23
I love that. I mean, I love the idea. What you do is you're working with the psychology of another human, which is what I coach all of my clients on, not only in parenting but in the entire divorce process and beyond. You will get so much further by doing that than you will by just doing some cookie cutter thing or pretending everything is going to be fine. No, it's not. I agree with you 100% on the presentation, but what is this person presenting? Are they presenting to the lawyer a totally complete parenting plan? Or is it bullet points? Because still, I mean the lawyers have an ego right. And they also have experience with. This is how I do it. This is how I've written my parenting plans for decades. I don't want your parenting plan, so how do you get them like? What are you presenting to them to get buy-in?
Samantha Boss Guest
16:19
Okay, I'll answer that first and I'm going to go backwards. So what I build for people is a custom-built parenting plan guide, meaning it is a parenting plan essentially without the formalities of names and numbers on it. It has everything in there, from joint all the way to reimbursement policy, everything in between, and so it is a full-blown paragraph. Headers can be just cut and pasted right into the lawyer's own header pages and formatted. It's essentially a parenting plan draft, right. So, I would be handing that. But here's where I go backwards a little bit.
16:51
I have changed in the past I'd say three years of how I coach people that before I hire an attorney, before I ever set foot for a consultation, before I ever call a single attorney, I already have my parenting plan done, because I want to use that as my interviewing step. When I go into that consultation to meet with an attorney, I'm going to say tell me a little bit about yourself, your background, what are your specialties, what kind of clients do you prefer to have? Blah, blah, blah. And here's where I'm going to tell you what kind of attorney I want. I want an attorney that's going to allow me to keep continuing on with an education and is going to push for me to have a divorce coach. It's going to push for me to have a parenting plan written myself, because who knows the kids better than me? Nobody. So that's the plan for my future and my children.
17:34
Why shouldn't I be the author of that paperwork? And you will find attorneys will either be offended in that consultation that you want to go out and achieve that on your own, or they're going to love it. And here's why it's so important to find one that loves it, because the attorney that respects that you are educated about right of first refusal and how many weeks is too many weeks for vacation and all that. They know that. You understand that. Then they can spend most of their time going out and being a salesman or spend most of their time in high conflict putting out fires, which is what you need them to be doing all the time and they don't have to focus on the nitty gritty paperwork that you can fill out yourself. I mean that paperwork, that parenting plan. Hear me when I say this, parents it's yours, it's your guideline, your playbook. It's not your lawyers, it's not your judges, it's your paperwork. Why would you not be the one writing it? You want to use the template that Larry the lawyer's been using since 08. Good luck. It's out of date, it's out of touch, it's out of reality and it doesn't fit high conflict and you'll realize that if you use his versus.
18:32
Do your kids have special needs? Do they have neurodivergent disorder? Do they have something going on? Do you have one of you have a shift working job? Those templates that they use don't fit your situation. You should be the author and the lawyer that sits in a consultation and is put back going. I love this. This is good. That's the lawyer you hire, versus the one that says, yeah, we'll never use that. Oh, okay, you don't want my thoughts about my children and my future. Got it, because I was just asking your opinion but you didn't even read it. That's not the lawyer I hire.
Karen Covy Host
19:05
So, you come in to an initial consultation with a parenting plan and you show it to them.
Samantha Boss Guest
19:10
Yeah, you say all that sandwich comment. I love it. You've been referred. You're amazing. I would really love for you to scan this over, see what you think. I put a lot of effort in this. This is what I want for me and my children's future and the relationship I'd like to have with my co -parent. You know this is a non-negotiable for me. If you'd be willing to take this on and use this as the starting draft, I'm not saying it has to be the final, but the starting draft.
19:29
This is how hard I want to go, and if that's not what you can't do for me, tell me now and we're done with the consultation. I'm not going to give you a $10,000 retainer for you to tell me two weeks from now, when I show it to you, that it's not going to work, because then I’m going to be mad. I’m going to be upset that I went and built it and then you said no to me. I believed in you. So, it’s a way to really just cross reference if you are attorney is a good fit for you. Because this parenting plan of high conflict, detail and longevity is what you're going to have to have, and if attorney isn't supporting that, then I'd have to ask the question are they just not educated about what high conflict is? Then they're not a good fit for me, or do they just want my money for week after week, month after month, year after year, because they know I'm going to keep having to come back if it doesn't have detail and that's not the attorney for me.
Karen Covy Host
20:11
So first of all, I totally freaking love this. I mean, this is amazing. It's what I, you know, we are so on the same page, you know, to find the lawyer who actually listens to you, who is willing to, you know, be flexible and to do your due diligence before you even walk into that office. What process does that lawyer like to use? What are they good at? Because nobody is good at everything.
Samantha Boss Guest
20:40
Correct. That should be one of your questions. Tell me something you love to do as a lawyer. Tell me something that bothers you, that your weakest point, that you struggle with. And if they can't say, well, you know nothing, I'm really no. No, I want to know. Do you suck at paperwork? Do you hate being in court? Do you not like status hearings Like I want? You got to tell me the truth, cause I'm going to tell you the truth what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, you know, as a client, you got to tell me the interview process.
Karen Covy Host
21:08
I love that. I totally do. But let's talk for a minute about process, right, Because I am a firm believer and a lot of my colleagues take issue with this. But I think you have to understand and choose your divorce process. Which way would you like to do this before you choose the attorney? Because if you walk into an attorney's office first, they're going to sell you on whatever it is that they do. Obviously, they think that's going to be the best because that's what they do, right, but it's not necessarily the best for you. So what do you think about something like that? Should you go into an attorney's office knowing yeah, I know this is a high conflict situation, but I think we can navigate through a mediation and that'll be more effective in our situation, or a collaborative divorce, which is more supported, will be good, or a none of that stuff's going to work. We've got to go to court. I mean, do you? What do you think about choosing the process before the lawyer?
Samantha Boss Guest
22:09
Well, I think any office that you go and do a consultation with that doesn't even tell you there's other options besides just court, you shouldn't pick that office. Because even in high conflict you can use mediation as a way to find out a lot of information and or get some things put in that you wouldn't be able to get set in court. So, I mean, I think any law office I agree with you that doesn't tell you and isn't transparent about all your options is not the law office for you. You guys, there's a law office, there's five in every town. You can shop around and look around and go to a neighboring town. I think too many people just jump on the first horse and, like I got sold. I mean I got sold on marble floors and Dove chocolates in the bathroom. I got wooed by how fancy the office was, you know, and she was wearing Louis Vuitton and I'm like this is the woman for me Now. Granted, I bought her probably about 17 pairs of Louis Vuitton after this whole case was over, but I think it's. It's good that you know not every high conflict divorce can be done in mediation or collaboration and a lot of them do go to court. But man, do you know how much stuff I can find out about what they're going to bring to court during mediation? Because they'll just run their mouth and talk, you know. So there's, there's other ways to. You could start that that way and maybe have to pivot. But if that law office I agree with you doesn't tell you all your options because most people don't know, they think I'm divorced, they're like me, one track paperwork and that's it. No, there's a whole bunch of different ways to get divorced. But if you're truly high conflict and we have personality disorders or we have a diagnosis of something, you're most likely going to end in court at some point. But you can try. I'd rather know I tried to do it as safely and or less expensively as possible. And if I end there, fine. But most offices when you walk in and say we're high conflict, oh, you're going to have to go to court, exactly, they don't even give you the option to try anything else. When some of you, I'm just going to tell you that money talks, that money talks sometimes if you're like, hey, I'm willing to walk away from the house if they sign me this, this, this, and most attorneys are like, well, you can't, you can't give money in that I know. But I'm telling you, if we go to collaboration, we go to mediation, I offer that they will sign it. And attorneys will be like, no, no, they won't sign that. Yes, they will. They'll sign it because they're crazy and money is the most important thing to them. It's their pulse, you know.
24:18
So you know. I think that, going back to what you originally asked, you have to understand the psychology of who you're divorcing, and so many of us go into a divorce like this. Is what I want. I want this for the kids. I want this. I want this. I want that you got to. If your lawyer doesn't tell you to take that hat off and put on your ex's hat, or soon to be ex's hat, and really think from their perspective again, not your attorney, because they're, they're in it for just your track. They got to look at the whole picture to do a good job.
Karen Covy Host
24:43
Yeah, oh God, there's so much in here that I'd love to dive into. But people think too that something like mediation that it's an all or nothing proposition. Right, either you completely settle in mediation or it was a failure, not true? I love that you point out that you can get information in mediation, and that depends on what type of mediation you're doing. Sometimes you don't get that opportunity, but if nothing else, if you walk into mediation with a list of 20 issues that you got to resolve and you walk out and you didn't settle everything, but 10 of those issues are gone because you made an agreement on that, yay, that's some success.
25:22
I mean the way the law works, the way this system works. It's the same way that a doctor does a differential diagnosis. You come in, you've got a list of symptoms and they're like, well, it could be these 10 different things. And then they ask me like, oh well, it's not that, it's not that, it's not that. And then you're left with a narrow lane of this is what it is. And that's the same way divorce works, where you walk in, you've got all these issues and you're like, okay, well, this one we can resolve, this one we can solve, this, we can do, and then you're only left with this much. It becomes much less expensive to try a case that has two or three issues in it than 30. And when you try 30, do you think the judge is going to really listen and give you like a detailed analysis of 30 issues? Not unless you're Rockefeller.
Samantha Boss Guest
26:10
It's not going to happen and you're going to be stuck with one of those horrible templates that the state provides and it's just, it's got awful for you and I don't wish that upon anybody, cause that's what I ended up with. Right, we went to mediation. My ex-husband the mediator started with she's like let's start with holidays. And I'm like okay, you know, we've been doing 50, 50 for like six months to eight months. Let's sound sense, it sounds good. And we got. She's like I think we can both can sit here and agree that you get Father’s Day, she gets Mother’s Day. Let's start with a solid win here. You know, guys, like she was, her name was Karen and she was just so, so perfect for us. And he looked her dead in the face and he goes not if it's my weekend, she doesn't get it. And Karen tried to explain that that's not how this worked and holidays supersede visitation and he didn't want anything of it. He said no, I'm going to have full custody, I'm going to be taking these kids from her, she's going to be paying me child support, I'm done here. And Karen looked at me and we let him leave and she just said sister, you're going to court. She's like this man is not going to agree on anything. And so, I had a severely high conflict case. Right, it drug out for four more years. We went to court and we got handed a four-page parenting plan from the judge, cause he was just like we had eight-day trial, 43 witnesses, 41 of them were his. And it was just this huge, big episode to where the judge was so tired of us that he's like they get this, this, this, this, and I'm done with it because it drug out for so long. It was such this big, huge ordeal and the judge gave us a template that I mean our judge retired the year after our case, so that tells you anything. And I think he was using a template from 84 and it was horrible and it didn't serve us and it caused us to go to court 300 more times after that and our case just got out of hand.
27:54
Karen Covy Host
You went to court 300 times?
Samantha Boss Guest
Well, I have 300 court entries. I had validated parking. I knew all the bailiffs’ names and their wives’ names. I lived in the courtroom every three weeks to three months. Three months was the longest I went without being in court for eight years he took me to court for crossing the street wrong.
28:16
It was all his motions. I did not take him back because I didn't need to. All I had to do was wait for him to take me for something and I knew I could bring up my thing. But it was every time he went to where he was pro se because so many attorneys fired him because it was just undue cause to where my attorney was like Sam, I hate to charge you for the prep of this, but we got a prep and then a lot of times he would cancel the last minute. So, then I would pay for all the prep with my attorney and then he's pro se, so he'd cancel and it got out of hand and so we had this last judge and I will give her credit, judge Hill.
28:45
Finally, at the end of my case and again I'm sure she's retired now she said it was the first day on our case. She pulled in or walked in and they pulled our case in on a dolly, a dolly, and box after box after box, and she looked at her bailiff and she said what is that? And he goes, this is the case and she goes for the day. Those are all the cases I have today. And he goes no, ma'am, this is their case. And she stood up and she said I don't know what's going on here, cause this is my first day with the two of you, but, moving forward, anybody that files a motion, if you lose, you pay for all of us to be here yourself.
29:23
She's like that's ridiculous and I cried. I was sitting there crying Like thank you. I sent her a thank you card, Karen. I didn't know the rules about how you can't talk to judges. I sent a thank you card to the courthouse and I just said dear judge Hill, thank you so much for finally seeing the financial abuse that I've been under for a decade. And I signed my name.
29:41
And the next time we went to court uh, which was shortly thereafter she said whoever which one of you sent me a thank you card Cause she's like that's illegal, you cannot do that. And I didn't know what the rules were, but I was bawling because I've been financially abused for years. I mean $113,000 was the ending total in eight years back, you know in early. Two thousands Now that'd be an easy two. $250,000 in this decade now, yeah, that's on a dolly, on boxes. Four big boxes on a dolly was our case, because it was just it's what high con. So I mean, that's the reason I built a parenting plan is because my parenting plan did not serve us, which left me with no choice to work with him, and he wasn't even going to give me Mother’s Day. So I couldn't work with him. So my only choice was to use the court system and and it just it. It burned my family. Uh, my parents had to cash in retirements. I was broke. I had loans all over the place, credit cards charged all over the place. You know, live in paycheck to paycheck, running side job after side job, and the person that had affected the most were my kids, because they saw me financially abused.
30:46
I was broke, I was stressed, I was anxious. I was head on a swivel all the time looking over my shoulder like what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? I didn't know how to have confidence. I was beat down. I was broken. It was miserable for eight years, miserable Until I woke up one day, snapped out of it, became a new person, and my life has been uphill ever since in a better way. So I don't wish it upon anybody in a better way. So I don't wish it upon anybody and it can be easily fixed through education, great communication with your attorney and picking the right attorney and just perseverance of not stopping. You know your kids and you know what your future wants to look like. Make it happen.
Karen Covy Host
31:22
I'm just curious what was that moment when you woke up? What, what happened?
Samantha Boss Guest
31:28
It was something so juvenile. It was literally a day where we argued over $72. I, we were getting along for this small, small moment of time and I sent a bill for $72 and he flipped out and that was typical behavior. But then I caught myself kissing his ass and as I was talking to him and leaving him a voicemail and totally just like giving into him and and telling him everything that was, he was great, he was wonderful, blah, blah, blah. I apologize. I, I, I caught myself, like this above version going you're apologizing for asking for reimbursement that is court ordered from a man that's just making you feel bad so that he doesn't have to give you the 30 some bucks. And I was like, what are you doing? You're groveling with a man that keeps treating you this well. What are you doing? And at that moment I thought he's not going to get me like that. He loved that I, that I groveled. He loved that I had that voicemail. He loved that. That's the behavior I would do. He pushed me down. I would kiss his ass every time and my therapist. Finally, when I went and told her what I did, she goes. So let me get this straight Every time he mistreats you, you treat him better. So why would he not keep mistreating you? Because then you kill him with kindness, even more so than you did the time before that, and she's like why don't we change it to? He doesn't get you anymore.
32:44
And the second I started putting boundaries up with I don't care, if you don't pay, you're not going to affect me, I'll find a way. I always do. And I started. I started I learned of communication boundaries and I started to learn how to talk to myself better and I started doing affirmations and I started exercising and take care of my health and I was sleeping for the first time in a decade all the things. It was just like I cut him out.
33:03
He was such a huge part of my day-to-day thinking. What will he say? What will he think? How will he? Will he get mad? Will he be upset? Will he file for this? But I thought about him all the time. So I had to reprogram who I was, how I thought. And the second he saw me getting confident and stronger, mentally and physically. I became scary and he didn't come for me anymore because he saw that I wasn't weak and he switched over to my children. But then they saw me strong, so then they became strong and it was just this dumb. It was a beautiful domino effect that I wish I would have started. I mean day one of the divorce and I just didn't know.
33:42
I thought I would always have to give into this man because, you're told, be a good co-parent, work with them, talk with them. You know you have to do this, you have to, you have to. Well, I had an abusive ex who didn't stop just because we got divorced. So, it was a big learning curve, but it was over $72, over $72. I flipped a switch and just I could see myself on that phone call, looking down at me, going what are you doing? Look at you, look what you. Look what you're saying to the man that just like, yelled and screamed and called you everything. But a white woman like you. You're groveling with him. What are you doing? You're better than this.
34:18
I saw my dad talking to me like Sam, you were not raised like this. You don't, you don't let people treat. It was all. The things just came crashing in on that one day in my bedroom and it just flipped a switch in me. I was like I I can't do this, because what I started to see was my kids starting to give in to him. And my kids were starting to act like me and like mom. We just have to mom, we just have to be nice to mom, we just have to. And I was like, oh my gosh, they learned that from me. They learned people pleasing from me. And so it was a switch. I couldn't do it that.
Karen Covy Host
34:51
Wow, wow, wow, wow. I love that. I love your. How your story I mean not what you went through, but what you made of it that you turned everything around it's. It's amazing. I think people are gonna love it. They're gonna love you. Um, and the message that you have if people want to find you or they want to learn more from you, where's the best place for them to find you?
Samantha Boss Guest
35:09
Very easy. Just go to samanthaboss.com. Everything is there. If you've heard me talk about parenting plans, it's there. If it's too pricey for you, which I completely respect and understand, I do a masterclass where I just teach about it. So, if you have a quick hand and you can write, hit, pause, write, hit, pause, write and watch that masterclass about parenting plans, you can build yourself right there on your own computer. So, I have the masterclass and I have a parenting plan. And then I have the amazing membership group with Leah Marie from Mindfully Ready, called the Next Chapter, and it's just a support group for moms that are going through a high conflict divorce. We have a classroom full of over 100 hours’ worth of trainings, we have Q&As every month and it's just a great place to feel validation and support. My story is very similar to most of the women that are in there right now dealing with the same type of person that they're divorcing and trying to co-parent with. So yes, samanthaboss.com, all the things that I talked about today are found there.
Karen Covy Host
36:00
Samantha wow. All I can say is wow. This has been a powerhouse of a conversation, totally love it. I know everybody else is going to too. And, guys, if you're watching, if you're listening, if you enjoyed this episode, do me a big favor, give it a thumbs up. Like the episode, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, Sam, thank you one more time and I look forward to seeing all of you next time.
Samantha Boss Guest
36:23
Thanks for having me.
