Episode Description - How To Co-Parent Without The Drama
Most parents want to protect their kids during divorce - but what do you do when your co-parent won’t meet you halfway? In this episode, therapist and divorce coach Jill Kaufman breaks down the real-life challenges of co-parenting, especially when emotions run high or you're dealing with a difficult ex.
Drawing from her own high-conflict divorce, Jill offers a refreshingly honest look at what it takes to shift from emotional chaos to calm collaboration—or at least peaceful parallel parenting.
Jill explains why traditional co-parenting advice often falls short, especially when your ex isn’t playing fair. She walks through strategies like removing emotion from communication, using tools like the B.I.F.F. method, and knowing when not to respond at all. Her examples are specific, practical, and sometimes surprising—like how one small act of kindness completely changed her own co-parenting dynamic.
If you've ever wondered how to stay sane while raising kids with someone you’d rather never speak to again, this conversation is full of actionable insights. From parenting teens in two households to helping your kids build resilience when you can’t control your ex’s behavior, Jill shares grounded advice that puts the focus where it belongs—on the kids.
Show Notes
About Jill
Jill Barnett Kaufman is a Licensed Therapist, Divorce Coach, Mediator & Co-parenting Expert. After going through her own difficult divorce, she made it her life’s mission to help others not have it so tough. Her book and online course, I’m Getting Divorced, Now What? and her transformational coaching program help parents navigate the overwhelming process of divorce with less stress, more confidence and a greater sense of peace.
Connect with Jill
You can connect with Jill on LinkedIn at Jill Kaufman, on Facebook at Jill Kaufman and in her free Facebook Group Separation and Divorce Support Community. You can follow Jill on Instagram at Divorce Coach Jill and on YouTube at Divorce Coach Jill. To find out more about Jill’s work, visit her website at Divorce Coach Jill where you can also find out more about her coaching program, Thriving Through Divorce Coaching Program.
Want to Know More About Parenting Coordination?
Check out this episode about Parenting Coordination in high conflict divorce with parenting coordinators Jennifer Lavin and Gail Petrich.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Jill
- Jill Kaufman is a therapist, divorce coach, mediator, and co-parenting expert who began her career as a parent educator and later became a therapist after struggling with her own high-conflict divorce.
- Jill’s difficult divorce led her to help others avoid common mistakes, emphasizing the importance of strategy and emotional detachment in the divorce process.
- Co-parenting involves collaboration and shared parenting values, while parallel parenting allows each parent to operate independently due to high conflict or differing values.
- Post-divorce parents must transition from emotional partners to co-parenting "colleagues" to reduce conflict and focus on the well-being of the children.
- In high-conflict cases, neutral, fact-based communication is crucial. Avoid triggering language and focus on solutions, not emotions.
- The B.I.F.F. Method: For managing communication with high-conflict exes, Jill recommends being Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm—especially via email.
- The quality of the post-divorce parental relationship, not the divorce itself, most affects children’s well-being. Reduce tension and support the child’s bond with the other parent.
- Empower kids by encouraging children to express their needs directly to the other parent and refrain from triangulating or bad-mouthing the other parent.
- Use Co-Parenting Tools: Apps like Our Family Wizard and Best Interests can facilitate better communication and filter out emotional or inappropriate messages.
- With time, effort, and sometimes professional help, parents can create a healthier co-parenting dynamic that ultimately benefits the children and allows for a positive post-divorce life.
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Transcript
Jill Kaufman: How To Co-Parent Without The Drama
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
co-parenting, boundaries, communication, transformation
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Jill Kaufman
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have Jill Barnett Kaufman, and Jill is a licensed therapist, a divorce coach, mediator and a co-parenting expert. After going through her own difficult divorce, she made it her life's mission to help others so they don't have it as tough as she did. Her book and online course I'm Getting Divorced Now what? And her transformational coaching program help parents navigate the overwhelming process of divorce with less stress, more confidence and a greater sense of peace. Jill, welcome to the show.
Jill Kaufman Guest
01:15
Thank you so much for having me, Karen.
Karen Covy Host
01:18
I am excited to have you on the show, and what I want to focus with in this episode is the whole issue of co-parenting versus parallel parenting, because those can be two different, very different things. But before we start talking about that, can you share a little bit of your background with the listeners? What brought you to where you are today doing the work you do?
Jill Kaufman Guest
01:45
Oh, absolutely. So I started as a parent educator, teaching people how to parent, and I started when my kids were really young, so it really helped me parent. I had a spirited child and it was difficult and you know I wasn't divorced at the time, but we still struggled a lot. And then people wanted to work with me more. So I and I was like I'm not a therapist and you know I can't really work with you individually. This was a long time ago and so I went back and got my master's and I became a therapist and I really loved it. But you know, I did a lot of different things, like I did marriage counseling, I did family counseling, I did children.
02:22
I did a whole bunch of different things and then I went through my own divorce and I was like I need to help people not do what I did, because I did everything wrong, I made all the mistakes and I was a therapist thinking like I'm going to protect my kids, everything's going to be great. But it was really a mess. And this was in 2012, 2013. And you know there weren't a lot of divorce coaches at that time. Yeah, so I didn't even know about divorce coaches. I just hired an attorney and listened to her and it was a mess.
03:03
And my ex was like, well, you got an attorney, I have to get an attorney. Then they start talking to each other. It was so much money we spent and I ended up settling my divorce myself because I knew my ex and I knew what he wanted and I figured out what to give him so I could get what I want and that's what I help other people do. I figure I know, you know you're, you're soon to be X better than anybody else, and so you know what they're going to do and what they're not going to do. Even if you don't realize it, you know. When you think really hard, you figure that out, and that's the key to getting through this.
Karen Covy Host
03:41
That is absolutely beautiful and I think we can stop recording right here because if people heard nothing other than that, that would be a huge value for people to hear and understand and really get that you were able to settle your own divorce. I'm sure it wasn't a fun conversation to have, but because you knew your spouse slash ex so well, you were able to know okay, what does he want, what do I want? How can we craft a settlement agreement that we can both feel okay enough to agree to?
Jill Kaufman Guest
04:20
right, exactly, and you have to take emotions out of it. And I think a lot of people get to that point after they've spent a lot of money on attorneys and they've gone through all this stuff, which is what I did, gone through mediation and you know, if you can get someone to help you take all your emotion out and really think through this in a logical, rational way, then you can do so much better.
Karen Covy Host
04:43
Yeah, I mean it's all about not. I mean, divorce is really emotional, but it's about strategy. You've got to have a plan walking in the door, no matter how you're going to resolve your divorce, whether it's mediation, sitting down with your spouse, going to court, whatever it is if you don't have a plan, you're just not going to do so well and you're going to, to your point, spend a whole lot of money on lawyers and court system and fighting that you could have put to your kids' college education.
Jill Kaufman Guest
05:14
Exactly, exactly. And people don't realize that when they're first starting, and so it's really important for all of us to kind of educate people and help people along the way.
Karen Covy Host
05:25
Yeah, and you know another thing that a lot of people don't realize especially if you've gone through a divorce and it wasn't easy and it was pretty ugly and you know you've got a lot of emotion still at the end of divorce because emotions you just don't turn off the faucet. Oh, I'm divorced, okay, that's it Done. You know they, they keep going right. And if you have kids together, they keep going while you're parenting. So let's talk about that Maybe start with, what is co-parenting? When does it work and when doesn't it work so well?
Jill Kaufman Guest
06:03
So co-parenting is ideally. You and your ex talk about things. Parents similarly have similar rules and work together for the good of the children and everybody. You know that sounds great.
06:17
Everybody wants to do that, but in reality it's a lot harder to do, especially because you know you're getting divorced for a reason right, you weren't able to either communicate or connect or understand each other, so there's going to be problems. You can't expect things all of a sudden to be perfect post-divorce, so there's going to be issues. But the big difference that I tell people is you need to do this shift from being a married couple to being co-parents, and co-parents are like colleagues or co-workers. They're not. There's no obligation to understand and make these huge compromises and tell the person how much you empathize with them. You know you really you can't be emotional when you're co-parenting in high, especially in high conflict situations. I mean, maybe if it's a very amicable situation and you're both friends and you can talk to each other, then you can talk about feelings. But in most cases, that's not working because you're just going to set it up for an argument and not get to where you want to go.
Karen Covy Host
07:25
Yeah, I mean the co-parenting relationship. What people have to understand is I mean, yes, you are tied by your children, but you don't have the same kind of connection as you would to a spouse. So nine times out of 10, they don't care what you're feeling, they don't care. So you're feeling they don't care. You know so much what you think you know. The idea is to just communicate about the children and for the children, so let's talk about that. You mentioned communicating in high conflict situations too. How is that different? Or what should people be thinking about differently if they're in a high conflict relationship versus, you know, an amicable one?
Jill Kaufman Guest
08:10
So high conflict, obviously, is much more difficult. You're not agreeing on everything, you're fighting about things, you're not understanding each other and trying to come up with compromises. So high conflict is when you're dealing with someone who is a high conflict person or a narcissist or, um, maybe has a mental health issue or you know, if there's something going on there, um, that makes it into a more difficult situation, then you have to communicate differently. And it's so funny because I get, um, my, my clients. They send it to me for me to look over, sometimes before they send it to their soon to be X, and there's so many things in there that they don't even think is going to trigger the other person.
08:55
I went to chatgpt and they helped me make it and then I did this and I'm like no, no, no, no, you've got to take all the I thinks out of it. You know what I mean. Like they don't care what you think. You need to just talk about the facts, just say what you need to say, without like this is what to be an opportunity for the other person to argue with you, and it's very hard to see that when you're in the middle of it, when you've been married to someone and when you're emotional, so it's so much easier for me I couldn't do it for myself way back when you know you need somebody who's objective to kind of guide you through that process of understanding how to not trigger the other person.
Karen Covy Host
09:47
Well, I know that I'm probably putting you on the spot a little bit here, but can you give me an example, like something that somebody might say in an email to their ex, not even realizing that oh my goodness, I shouldn't have said this, or I shouldn't have said it this way, because oftentimes you can communicate the information in a more neutral way than what you're used to and you don't even you don't like to your point, you don't see it, you don't get it. So can you give the listeners an example?
Jill Kaufman Guest
10:18
Yes. So I just had this with one of my clients that she needed some money up front before the divorce was finalized, because the father, the spouse, had all the access to the money and she had some, but it wasn't enough because she was moving out and getting you know things for the new place. And so she said you know, I've done, you know I've worked, I've worked these extra jobs so that I can earn money, so that I'll have extra money, but it's not enough and I need to buy. You know, I would think you would want me to be able to buy a couch and some beds for the kids. So please can you give me an extra $5,000 now, before whatever, and like that.
11:11
You know she's saying please and she's saying things that are okay, but I would think that you would want me to is a total triggering phrase, right? It's like giving them, you know, judging them and shaming them into doing something for you. So I think you know, instead of that, you would want to say something like this is what I need. How are we going to get me that money in the next two weeks? I'm open to a lot of suggestions. What, what do you suggest? You know what I mean. So it's like it's giving them some power and it's giving them the idea that you're not telling them what they have to do, and so that's a lot less triggering. And some people get triggered no matter what you say. Right, Um so, but this is going to be more um, more times than not, a better way to communicate.
Karen Covy Host
12:04
And that would probably hold true not only during the divorce process but afterwards in a co-parenting situation as well. I mean, maybe you're talking about money, maybe you're talking about what activity do you enroll the kids in, maybe you're talking about a lot of different things, but trying to keep that conversation neutral is going to go a long way towards improving your relationship, like keeping a neutral relationship, an effective co-parenting relationship, with your kid's other parent, right?
Jill Kaufman Guest
12:39
Right, I'm working with someone right now who's already divorced and they are answering all these things from the other parent instead of just ignoring things that are not necessary to answer. You know, and it's getting them very frustrated, you know, and so I'm like well, you don't have to answer every single email, you answer the ones that you need to answer, but they feel a lot of people feel like you have to defend yourself and set the record straight. What they don't realize is that you're never setting the record straight. They're going to believe what they are going to believe and you have your truth and at this point you don't have to worry about what they believe.
Karen Covy Host
13:20
I think that that's so important. It goes to something that I tell my clients all the time it's okay. Which would you rather be? Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy, right?
Jill Kaufman Guest
13:31
I do that with my marriage. Counseling clients yeah.
Karen Covy Host
13:35
And I don't know what it is. Maybe you could tell me, because you're a therapist. What is it about human beings that we just want to be right so badly? I mean, even when I know better, because I do know better I still feel the urge why?
Jill Kaufman Guest
13:52
I think it goes back to childhood, because when we did something wrong we got in trouble. Our parents got angry. They punished us, you know. So we don't want to be doing anything wrong, you know. And if anybody accuses us of doing anything wrong, we need to defend ourselves. It's a very basic human instinct, and when we can realize that we don't have to tell, show them that we're right and that they're wrong anymore we're not in that kind of a relationship. They can think whatever they're going to do and they're going to think whatever they're going to think So that's a waste of energy for us.
Karen Covy Host
14:32
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. But let's go down the road of where you've got this spouse, who they are never going to think you're right I mean, you're lucky if they admit you're human right so you can't talk to each other. You're in a high conflict situation, the divorce is behind you, but you've still got kids. How do you deal with that? Is that what parallel parenting is about?
Jill Kaufman Guest
14:57
So, yeah, I mean you can do. Parallel parenting is basically you're doing whatever you do in your house and with your children and they're doing whatever they're doing in their house. I mean, I think a lot of people have a combination of co-parenting and parallel parenting, where you know when they can work together, they do. I think people really should try to work together when, especially when, the kids are teenagers.
15:21
So my youngest child did. I'm not going to say what happened, but he did something bad and he's 25 now, so he's fine. He graduated college and he's doing great. But in high school we were very worried and his father and I, who were high conflict when we went through divorce, got together and said we are going to punish him when he's at my house and when he was at his dad's house, the exact same way. And we brought him together, the two of us, and we told him what his punishment was. For eight days we were going back and forth between the two and it was really powerful because he couldn't play one against the other and he couldn't get away with anything and it really like when they're little. It's not that big a deal if you do parallel parenting, but to be a combined force when they're teenagers is really better for the children, and so you've got to think about that when you're parenting, no matter when it is after the divorce or before the divorce that you really want to have the kind of relationship that you can do this Even if you don't get along that well. You really want to be able to do things like that.
Karen Covy Host
16:33
I mean that just to me, just the fact that the two of you were sitting him down at the same time and saying this is how it's going to be, that had to send a powerful message.
Jill Kaufman Guest
16:46
It does, and that's what happens in intact families, right, and that's why you really want to do that, especially when they're teenagers and they need that, you knowI know that everybody can't and there's, you know just, situations where you can't, but try, you know, try.
Karen Covy Host
17:10
How do you try? Or what do you do if you're in a situation where you just can't? Your co-parent, your ex, is. They're high conflict of whatever variety, right, Maybe they've got a mental health issue, a substance abuse issue, they're narcissists, whatever it is. For whatever reason, you cannot communicate and they will not get on the same page with you about the kids. What do you do? How do you deal with that?
Jill Kaufman Guest
17:34
Well, emotionally, I would say, you know, get a support group or therapist, because that's really tough. You know, I've done co-parenting counseling I do, you know, that's part of my practice. So you could find a therapist who can work with the two of you to improve the communication and that's co-parenting counseling. But some people even that doesn't work. You know, I've had really I've had good experience and I've had really bad experiences with clients who are co-parenting counseling, co-parenting in and trying to improve through counseling, and it's just not going to work. So if that doesn't work, then I would say, you know, I'm sure you know, Karen, the BIFF method. You know, I know it, but I'm not sure that all the listeners know it, so please share.
18:21
So Bill Eddy has a high conflict institute and he developed this method, which I think a lot of people use in this field, and it's basically you want to only communicate mostly by email, because email is really a way you can think through. You know, it's not like texts that come to you when you're not ready for it. You can really read it over, let someone else read it over before you send it, read their emails before you respond, you know. So I highly recommend email. But in the email you are, you use BIFF brief. You're brief. You don't go into on and on about all these different things, so you keep it to a few sentences. You're informative, you just focus on the facts, not emotions or your feelings or anything like that.
19:10
You're friendly, which a lot of people don't know how to do, and that is pick anything that you can compliment them on. Say, thank you so much for picking up Sally the other day. You know I really was in a jam and you helped me out. Or you know Bobby like loved the time that he spent with you. It's really special how you spend time with him. I mean whatever it is you can say in a friendly, appreciative way. Friendly is so, so important to do this right. And then firm, firm is not just leaving it open-ended, and so many people do that Like, let me know if you can do this. You know that's not going to be the right way. If I don't hear from you by Friday at 5 pm, I will assume that you are okay with this. You know something like that. So you give them an end date and you tell them what's going to happen if they don't respond to you. And it's really effective.
Karen Covy Host
20:05
Yeah, and it goes to what anyone who's had to deal with a high conflict person knows, which is you need boundaries, right? So by leaving an open-ended request, just hanging out there, you have no boundaries. So you've got to say this is what I want, this is what I want to by. But the friendly part is so important. I agree with you 100% Because, to your earlier statement of well, I would think that you would want me to blah, blah, blah, that's not friendly.
20:36
That is not friendly and you got it. So sometimes having someone like you who could just give something you know, throw an eye on it and look at it and give a person some feedback, would be helpful because I mean, I, I know Bill Eddy, I have been to presentations that he's given and had dinner with him and all the things, and according to Bill Eddy, these are learnable skills, right? So would I be correct in assuming that if somebody is working with someone like you, like after a while they see the patterns and they can do it themselves, right?
Jill Kaufman Guest
21:16
They get much better. Yes, absolutely. It is learnable and it's not that hard. It's just a matter of getting your emotions in check when you're doing this.
Karen Covy Host
21:25
Right, yeah, and, by the way, that's not easy, right? I mean, because part of the game, the dance that you've been involved in with your ex, is you trigger them, they trigger you, you trigger, and it goes back and forth, or like everything triggers them. So it's easy for you to trigger them, but and then that, and so it's about getting control of yourself first, right? So how can a person go about doing that when they know their spouse or their ex pushes every button they've got and they just seem to not be able to stop themselves?
Jill Kaufman Guest
22:04
Yeah Well, this is a very easy answer. So you're doing it not for the spouse or this ex-spouse, you're doing it for your children, and your children benefit if you and their other parent aren't in huge fights all the time and there's not tension. They know when there's tension. They've done so much research on the kids who have gone through divorce versus kids in intact families and the difference in how the kids turn out is not based on the divorce, it's based on the relationship between the parents. So if you can get the relationship to be not high conflict, it doesn't mean it's close and wonderful. It doesn't have to be close and wonderful, but as long as it's not high conflict and there's not a huge amount of tension and fighting, your kids can be okay. So that's you're really, really doing this for your children and if that's all that you need, that's what you have to focus on.
Karen Covy Host
23:00
And if you're in this kind of relationship, somebody in this kind of relationship knows they're in this kind of relationship right. And so if they've been struggling for a long time, do you have any other tips, because you work with people like this all the time. Do you have any other tips for the listeners besides using BIFF responses, which always work better in writing, right, Than saying it's just too much to be thinking of all that stuff and stuff comes out of your mouth and you wish you could take it back. But other than the BIFF, do you have any other tips for people parents in high conflict relationships so that they can co-parent better or parallel parent better if they have to?
Jill Kaufman Guest
23:41
Yeah, so. So one tip, which is something that I eventually did. I didn't do it right away, but, um, my ex uh turned 50 a couple of years, a few years after we, we uh divorced and, um, I actually put together a photo album. I had each of my children write a letter to him and we put it in the photo album and they gave it to him as his 50th birthday gift and I really do think he they told me he cried when he got it because he read all their letters and I really do think that changed things with the way he felt about me and we started being more, much more amicable and you don't have to do that but something like keep trying to outstretch your hand, keep trying to do the right thing and do something kind for the other person you know, not every day, but every once in a while and see, maybe it's the thing that will change it to be a better relationship, because you know they have whatever it is that they are thinking that you did to them, just like you have what they've done to you, and you know there's no right or wrong here.
25:00
This is the way they feel and if they see that you're really making an effort to be not friends, but cordial and friendly. It could make the difference and it could really really help your kids. I know my kids benefited once we had a better relationship. So I highly recommend you think about what it is you could do to be positive and don't do it all the time, because then resentment builds. You know like, don't, don't do every day. What am I going to do to try to make this better? Do it every once in a while. You know and see what happens, because the person needs time. They're not going to be able to change the way they feel about you really while you're going through divorce or soon after. It's going to take, you know, a year or two after everything that is, if you've had a high conflict divorce for them to really heal and be open to your gestures. So you really need to wait and be patient with the other person.
Karen Covy Host
26:02
Okay. So what happens if you extend the olive branch it's I don't know a year after your divorce and they just smack your hand away and say no, and they won't take it. I mean then because that's the point where a lot of people say I tried, look what happened, it's just you know. And then it's just off to the conflict road again.
Jill Kaufman Guest
26:25
Yeah, I mean that's very hard, but I would try again. And like I said, don't try the next day, try in a few months. You know like get, give it some time. Eventually people do move on I mean most people. You know there is that small chance, small amount of people who can't move on ever, and I've seen that happen too. But, like, most people do move on. It just takes a different amount of time for each person.
Karen Covy Host
26:50
Yeah, that's, that's really good. So when people, when the kids are going between you're already divorced, they're going between the two households and you and your spouse can't agree on things that you have to agree on, what do you recommend? How can they break the stalemate, so to speak?
Jill Kaufman Guest
27:16
So in different circumstances you might have to do different things. I mean, you can explain to your children you know what this is, our rules here. You have different rules at your other parent's house, and that's okay, you know you've got to listen to both of us. If the, if the children are really suffering and if the children are trying to talk to the other parent about something and it's not working, then you can encourage the child on how to how to talk about it, you know. And if you're, if your children are saying to you, you know, well, you know, mom doesn't let me do this and it's not fair and I really I don't want to go there or I hate going there because dad doesn't do this. What you tell them is you need to talk to them, you need to tell them how you're feeling and it's really not your issue, it's your child's issue. At that point, you know.
Karen Covy Host
28:14
Exactly. But how do you empower your child or equip your child to handle a situation that you don't even think they should have to be dealing with, but they do?
Jill Kaufman Guest
28:26
Right, I think you encourage them by saying that their other parent loves them, and if you really tell them how important this is to you, hopefully they'll listen to you. And you can't protect them in these situations, right? You can't get your other parent to do something because you want to do it. You should never get involved in that. That's triangulation, and they'll just get mad at you and think you're the one telling your child that this is important, you know. So you have to stand out of that relationship. And children figure it out. I've seen it over and over again Children figure out how to stand up for themselves, how to deal with a situation with one parent that they're not as happy with than another, and they either spend more time with their friends, or they go to their room, or they figure it out. I know it's not ideal, but children are more resilient than we realize and they learn how to handle it.
Karen Covy Host
29:28
Yeah, that I mean. It's unfortunate, but I've seen it happen too. Going back to the communication, though, what do you think about the co-parenting apps that are out there? There's a lot of them, like, for example, our Family Wizard, which is the one that gets recommended the most in my neck of the woods has a tonometer. In other words, if you write that angry text, or you know you write the thing that doesn't sound so good, it'll light up and say you know, warning, warning. You might want to rephrase this right. Do you think those are helpful for people?
Jill Kaufman Guest
30:11
Definitely. I mean, the problem with Our Family Wizard is you have to get both people to agree. There is a new app and I know the creator Best Interests app, and you only have one party has to agree. So what happens is you have a phone number that you give to your soon-to-be ex and anything that comes in a text or an email that is not appropriate, it rewrites it to an appropriate response. It cuts out all the emotional stuff and you only see. You can see the original if you want to, but you don't see it automatically. So that's kind of a good app, I thought, because you don't have to get the other person's approval to do that.
Karen Covy Host
30:53
That's interesting. I'm going to have to look into that one. I have not heard about that one, but I like that. But you are right, the problem with the apps is not only do both people have to agree to them, but they actually have to use them, Like I've been in situations involved in situations where one person just will not use the app. It doesn't matter what the court order says, you know the other person takes them back to court and then you're spending tens of thousands of dollars fighting over do you use the app or not. It seems ridiculous.
Jill Kaufman Guest
31:25
Yeah, no, that's, that's. Yeah. I've seen that too, where people don't use it even though they're court ordered, and it's not worth it to go back to court for that.
Karen Covy Host
31:34
And that's exactly the problem. You know that people don't realize is that the legal system can't solve all these problems because there's no judge. That's like on your shoulder, or on your spouse's shoulder, watching everything that happens, and to go back to court costs a lot of money.
Jill Kaufman Guest
31:57
Yeah, I have seen parent coordinators do a really good job of calling people on things. So that's a thing that you can use. But that's a really high conflict divorce where you're paying a lot of money for attorneys and you know you really want you have to go every week to a parent coordinator, who usually a retired judge, who can really tell you. You know this is not okay and call people on when they're not doing things and I've seen that really work. But that is only necessary if, like, one of the parents aren't getting the kids or something like that. You know, yeah.
Karen Covy Host
32:28
Parenting coordination. I've actually done a whole episode on that and I'll link to that in the show notes, because people tend to think about want to have or have to have a parenting coordinator because it's expensive and it puts like a whole other person into your family. If you need that, okay, but hopefully it doesn't get to that point.
Jill Kaufman Guest
33:05
Yeah, no, most people should not use that. You only use it in certain circumstances, when it's really necessary use that.
Karen Covy Host
33:14
What else can parents do to help protect their children when the kids are stuck in this high conflict situation?
Jill Kaufman Guest
33:22
So one of the big things I tell parents is to listen to your child. Be there when they want to talk about something. If they don't want to talk about it, respect that and just let them know I'm here for you if you ever do want to talk about it. But don't pile on when they complain about the other parent, when they tell you something about the other parent. So, for example, if they're like I can't take it when mom does this, don't say oh God, I know, isn't she awful? You know, like that is not what you want to do. Say you know, I can understand why you feel that way. You really need to talk to her about it, you know.
34:02
So you want to not get in the middle, not try to get them to take sides, and I see that happening all the time and I get it Like you want your kid to love you more than the other parent. It's natural that you want that, but it's not good for the child. The children are part each of you and they really need to be allowed to love the other parent. So the best thing you can do is to support the child's relationship with the other parent. Even if they were a terrible spouse doesn't mean they're going to be a terrible parent.
Karen Covy Host
34:40
But what about the person? Because I've seen this happen so often where they were the primary parent right, the primary caretaker for the children, and then the other spouse steps up and all of a they're going to be parent of the year and it just fries your shorts.
Jill Kaufman Guest
35:03
I was kind of in that situation and my ex got 50-50 custody. I mean my oldest was 18. My middle one was 16 and my youngest was 12. So you know they weren't babies, but you know he did step up and my kids have a good relationship with him now and that is better for them. And yeah, it kind of frustrated me that who was the one who did everything when it was really tough when they were young? That was me, but you know what they might. I mean you just got to think of the children and what's best for them and it's best for them to have a relationship with both parents and they're not going to have a relationship with both parents if the other parent doesn't have time with them.
35:45
So you know I tell people all the time in the beginning when you have to give up that 50-50 custody and you don't see your kids and they're not in your house and it's so hard. But then after a little while you kind of look forward to that time to yourself and if you put things into your life that make you happy, you can really have a really nice balance of life and not be resentful that they're spending time with the other parent and that's the best for everybody.
Karen Covy Host
36:18
Yeah, I say that to people too, and it's really hard. You've got to deal with your own emotional stuff about the situation, but many times it's sad that this is true, but the divorce helps the other parent be a better parent. Fundamentally that's good for your kids. It sucks that it had to happen the way it did, but your kids really do get a benefit from it if you can allow that to happen.
Jill Kaufman Guest
36:48
Right, right, which is really hard, and I get it.
Karen Covy Host
36:50
But it's all about the kids.
Jill Kaufman Guest
36:53
Yeah, I did it. I know it wasn't easy.
Karen Covy Host
36:56
I know, but it's possible and that's the message for people and I would think that if they're having trouble, if they're struggling to do it, working with a divorce coach or a therapist or somebody who can help them with co-parenting would be so valuable.
Jill Kaufman Guest
37:15
It's so valuable. You don't have to go through this alone. Now you know you have there's so many resources out there who can that can help you through this. So you, so you understand this process. You have tools, so you have ways that you can protect your children and live an amazing post-divorce life.
Karen Covy Host
37:34
And I can't think of a better way to end this than with that sentiment. That is just, it's beautiful, and it's so encouraging to hear that things don't have to be terrible forever and there are things you can do and you will get through the hard time.
Jill Kaufman Guest
37:50
Yep, nobody's in their divorce forever. Some people who are going for record, it feels like forever. Yeah, but no, I have not heard of someone going through their divorce. There is a post-divorce life and it can be really great.
Karen Covy Host
38:06
So, Jill, thank you so much for being here, for sharing your wisdom. If people want to learn more, if they want to work with you, where can they find you?
Jill Kaufman Guest
38:15
So my website is divorcecoachjill.com and I have a free Facebook group for people going through divorce, so I have a lot of information in there and it's called Separation and Divorce Support Community.
Karen Covy Host
38:33
Community, separation and Divorce Support Community, and we will link to everything in the show notes. One quick question is the Facebook group for men and women, just women, just men.
Jill Kaufman Guest
38:44
Yeah, I work with both men and women, and so, yeah, there's a lot of both in there.
Karen Covy Host
38:50
Perfect, perfect. So thank you again for sharing your knowledge, for sharing your time and your resources with everybody. I really appreciate it.
Jill Kaufman Guest
38:58
Thank you, Karen, for having me, you're welcome.
Karen Covy Host
39:01
And for those of you out there listening or those who are watching, please, if you enjoyed today's conversation, if you want to hear more conversations just like this, do me a big favor. Give this a thumbs up, like subscribe. Subscribe to where you're listening to the podcast, subscribe on YouTube, and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
