Episode Description
With over 40 million Americans regularly visiting porn sites, pornography is the "dirty little secret" that's hiding under the hood of more divorces than most people realize.
In this podcast episode, guests Kevin White and Polly Fleming (who are not married to each other!) share their deeply personal experiences with porn addiction and the crippling effects it had on their marriages.
Born from trauma, pornography addiction ultimately destroys true intimacy and makes maintaining a marriage or other deep relationship extremely difficult. It's mired in guilt and shame, as well as societal judgment.
Yet, paradoxically, the only way to heal from porn addiction (and to heal relationships broken by porn addiction) is through self-love, empathy, understanding, and education.
LISTNER'S NOTE: This episode deals with pornography, sex, and relationships. While the conversation is not graphic, listener discretion is still advised.
Show Notes
About Polly
Polly Fleming is an intuitive artist, writer and speaker. She's also a mother, and a woman who has lived with an addict. Her desire is to shine a light on addiction as well as the trauma that causes it, to support, encourage and educate those it affects; especially women.
Connect with Polly
You can connect with Polly on LinkedIn at Polly Fleming, Facebook at Polly Fleming and the best way to reach Polly is through Instagram at Art Of You. You can find Polly’s book, Spouse of an Addict: A Journal on Amazon.
About Kevin
Kevin White is an Executive Coach who works with his wife Jamie with business leaders in transition. They work together as a team with each client. Kevin specializes in healing the spiritual body and mind by working in his spiritual gifts. As a Christian, Kevin does all this work though the tools that God has given him and through the special relationship he has with God through Jesus. However, Kevin is not a religious person, just a person who believes in the gifts we've been given and power of love.
Connect with Kevin
You can learn more about Kevin at his website Believe Crew. You connect with Kevin on LinkedIn at Kevin White, listen to the Believe Crew Podcast on Apple Podcast or Spotify and check out the Believe Crew YouTube Channel. The best way to reach Kevin is via email at [email protected].
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Kevin and Polly
- The episode is about surviving porn addiction: one marriage survived, one didn't.
- Kevin and Polly (not married) share their personal experiences dealing with porn addiction, from the perspective of both the addict (Kevin) and the spouse (Polly, whose marriage ultimately ended in divorce).
- They discuss the journey to healing for the addict, the trauma that fuels addictions, the critical role of accountability and contriteness from the addict, and the shame that prevents getting help. They offer advice for being honest with yourself, listening to your body's signals, and ultimately making self-loving decisions.
- The guests emphasize there is no one right decision - it depends on the people and situation. But getting the right help and support is critical, as is forgiveness of self and others.
- Porn addiction is more widespread than many realize, and can severely damage relationships due to the breach of intimacy and trust.
- Getting professional help and support is crucial when dealing with porn addiction. Both Kevin and Polly sought various forms of counseling and healing support.
- Shame plays a major role in keeping the issues hidden for both the addict and spouse. Admitting the problem is an important first step.
- Listening to your gut instinct about what you can and can't live with is important when deciding how to move forward.
- Understanding the root trauma that may be underlying the addiction can allow healing and self-forgiveness for the addict.
- Kevin and Polly offer advice for others facing similar situations from their firsthand experiences.
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Transcript
How to Handle Porn Addiction with Kevin White and Polly Fleming
Kevin White, Polly Fleming
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
addiction, recovery, divorce
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Kevin White, Polly Fleming
Karen Covy Host00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covey, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today. I have two guests this week, and they are Polly Fleming and Kevin White. Polly Fleming is an intuitive artist, writer and speaker. She's also a mother and a woman who has lived with an addict. Her desire is to shine a light on addiction, as well as the trauma that it causes, and to support, encourage and educate those that affect especially women. Kevin White is an executive coach who, together with his wife, Jamie White, work with business leaders in transition. Kevin is a Christian who specializes in healing the spiritual body and mind by working with his spiritual gifts to guide his clients toward a more fulfilling future. Kevin and Polly, both of you welcome to the show.
Kevin White Guest01:24
Thank you.
Karen Covy Host01:25
I think what we're going to talk about today is so important and it's something that most people don't want to talk about right so.
01:35
I did a little research before today's show and I came across some statistics that I didn't know and I personally found to be shocking right, and they are that about 200,000 Americans are classified as porn addicts. 40 million American people regularly visit porn sites. 35% of all internet downloads are related to pornography. I mean, who knew that right? And according to the National Coalition for the Protection of Children and Families, 47% of families in the United States reported that pornography is a problem in their home, and if it is, pornography use increases the marital infidelity rate by more than 300%. So I know that the two of you have both had experience with pornography addiction, and I'd like to start by diving into that just a little bit. If you could start with your stories, and, Kevin, I'd like to start with you, if that's okay.
Kevin White Guest02:40
Yeah, certainly. Well, as I found out later in my healing journey, my addiction started when I was really young. I knew that the addiction started when I was 11, but I didn't know that it really was because of some things that were even younger, which we can maybe go into later. So I knew that from 11, a friend and I a lot of guys are introduced to pornography. I don't think, and it doesn't necessarily mean, that if you see pornography you turn into an addict, right? My best friend and I were introduced by a neighbor. He walked away. I didn't, I was interested. I found out later why.
03:29
But then fast forward seven years or so. I met my future wife, Jamie. We dated for a couple of years. I had told her pretty early in our relationship about the issue and we naively went into marriage thinking that, oh, it won't be a problem, I'll be able to get over that pretty easily. We can work together. Of course, she probably thought she could change me. All the things that we do as a young married couple Fast forward after three kids and having both of our moms die from cancer and a lot of other things say 10 years or so, and that's when we started to really understand that not only was I not improving, it was like adding, like the consequences were adding up.
04:23
And that's when Jamie started to say to me that something had to change and we could easily gone down the road of divorce just as easy as well, not just as easy. It was very hard for her to stand up and say I don't want to have you in my life, or at least limited, if this is what you're going to continue to choose. And then from there, I got some help and I got a coach. I got an energy healer that both mentored me and helped me and I started down the road of healing. And that was probably that happened from 2014 to 20,. Well, honestly, to today, I think there's still a lot of mental things that are the effects of the way I process things, the way I think about things, the way I respond to stress still has a lot to do with the way I operated as an addict to a certain extent, a lot, lot better. Hopefully I'm in 90% healed range, but I don't really know. It's just a journey of discovery and all that.
Karen Covy Host05:41
And Polly, I want to get to you in a minute. But, Kevin, I just have to ask you I know I'm more familiar with an alcoholic addiction. Right, and they say that if you are once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. You can be either recovering or actively using, but you're still always an alcoholic. Is the same thing true with porn addiction, in your opinion?
Kevin White Guest06:05
Yeah, yes, I think so. I think these are a little tougher to understand to a certain extent because, like for me, pornography addiction had a lot to do with what I would. It probably had a lot to do with something called rejection sensitivity disorder. So, in other words, that's as close as I can get in what I've found in the world to describe it. I think that I was so sensitive to being loved in whatever I perceived that was. That was my outlet, because pornography doesn't require anything from you, it just takes from you. You can question me from there, because I actually don't quite get it completely. I'm just kind of giving you the raw facts that I found later.
Karen Covy Host07:10
Yeah, no, I appreciate that and I want to put a pin in that. And just jump to you, Polly you too have experience with pornography addiction, but from a different angle. So if you wouldn't mind sharing your story.
Polly Fleming Guest07:27
Sure, of course. So, similarly to Kevin's story, my now ex-husband also started when he was very young, 11. Same exact thing, except he did not tell me. He didn't tell me because he thought he could change it. He thought I could get better. He didn't think it would be an issue. Naively, we both went into marriage, both very naive and fast forward to when stress is built up, and he was very unhappy and I did not know why. And that was why, because he was so full of shame and so full of pain and is constantly escaping into this, which had escalated into various things, sometimes with other women, situations that again, I didn't know about until I did.
08:30
And then, of course, we're all on a journey. We're all on a hailing journey. I was on one, and so I continued my hailing journey and I was so depleted by the time that we were both getting help. I was so depleted and I had a toddler. I simply couldn't do it anymore. And one thing that's really, really important here is that we do live in the United States of Addictions, and this addiction is on a spectrum just like every addiction alcoholism, food, drugs, you name it shopping. One really important distinction here is that this particular addiction is a relational problem. It destroys relationships because it destroys intimacy, and shame is pound on top of all of that. Shame just compounds everything and it makes it worse, and so one of the things I want to make sure that people know is that let's talk about this because there is trauma underneath. Like Kevin said, there's trauma underneath, let's start with that. So that's my story in a nutshell.
Karen Covy Host09:52
Yeah, and I appreciate it, and I just want to, before we even dive into the rest of the conversation there's so much that we can get into I just want to acknowledge both of you, and especially you, Kevin. It takes guts to be sitting in your chair on a video and saying to the world yeah, I have a porn addiction, or I had a porn addiction. I'm working on it, whichever it is. That is amazing. And even to say, Polly, I was married to a porn addict. Like there's shame associated with that as well. So, both of you, the fact that you're here and opening up the conversation about this issue, I just want to give you huge kudos, because this can't be easier fun for either one of you, but yet I think it's going to make a difference. I really do so.
10:47
I want to start, though, that what strikes me, and why I'm so glad that you're both here, is that, Kevin, you had a problem. You stay married. Polly, your husband had the same problem, from about the same age, and you got divorced. What fueled your decisions one way or the other? What's the difference? How did Kevin, how did you and Jamie manage to get through this and make your marriage work, whereas, Polly, that wasn't your choice. I mean, what's the difference? Either one of you who wants to jump in.
Kevin White Guest11:25
Well, I think what Polly pointed out about shame is really big. If we as addicts aren't willing to admit that we have an issue to someone besides our spouse and most powerfully not like your best friend, right, because sometimes maybe they have the same problem but someone that you respect and who you would be ashamed to tell them about it, then I don't know if anything will really help. That's kind of the start. We do have to get to the point where we're willing to admit we have a problem.
12:07
I can't tell you the Polly side of it, obviously, but from my standpoint I was attempting to be a good Christian and be a dad and I knew that this is a problem. Yes, I had all the ways I was justifying my behavior not the pornography but all the other garbage but deep down I knew that it wasn't at work. I think the key is, from my perspective, is to stand up to your spouse before you get to the point where Polly is saying like I couldn't do it anymore. I talked to a lot of people that it's just too late. They want to make it work with their spouse, but I just can't. You've taken everything from me and I just can't do it anymore.
I don't know, that might be a key, Polly. I'd love to hear your feedback on that. Somehow Jamie got to me and how she approached it. I think she had a pretty high tolerance. She was she admits she was an enabler we cover that on our podcast but she had a pretty high ability to.
It wasn't all good either. Like to forgive to. You know like it did hurt her and there are things that we've been working through to support her in her healing. So there's not really a good answer here.
I'm not even sure that we did the right thing, but I think what was attracting me to ultimately when I sat in the chairs that I sat and made the decision that I made along the way, was that I couldn't leave my kids, and I couldn't. I couldn't. I knew that if I let this marriage not work, that I would regret it for the rest of my life. I knew that Jamie was. I just couldn't like let's go off and find another Jamie. Like it wasn't going to be that way.
And so ultimately, she got me to the point of choosing that like okay, so you either are walking away, if you will leave the property, I'm done, I'm not going to continue with this, or we're going to work through this and you're going to start to get help. That kind of a conversation is what allowed me to make that decision, and sometimes I was like I don't think I can do this. I don't. I don't know if I'm really going to improve. There's something wrong. I want to stop hurting you. Like I'm not saying that I was always making a great decision either. It was a battle and there were different decision points along the way over the years.
Karen Covy Host14:58
Yeah, Polly, what about you? What was your experience? Why the scales for you to go the other way
Polly Fleming Guest15:09
Well, that's very long. It's hard to summarize this right. It's hard to summarize years of extending grace and patience, and we went through a period of time where we were in counseling and couples counseling and then my own counselor, and I think the important piece is that it really came down to sincere accountability. And when I say that I don't mean I need to know everything that you're thinking and feeling and doing. It's more the attitude of zero manipulation. Zero manipulation and acknowledgement of the pain that I was in. And so, after a lot of trying, I asked my ex-husband to move out and for a separation, because nothing was changing for a very long time and there were weekly accountability check-ins where he would just say, yep, I slipped again, yep, I slipped again. Yep, I slipped again.
And this, I think what if women who are listening and men who are listening who have been in my situation know what that feels like? What it feels like is 1,000 tiny paper cuts after that you've been stabbed, and so it's not as if it was that I literally had nothing left and in order to save my health and myself and be a mother, I had to do that. There's different constitutions. I understand that and perhaps I'm more sensitive than most, and I own that. I also don't think that I was respecting myself at certain points, and you can live in a world of magical thinking for a while, and I wanted to believe all his words, you know, and he wanted to say all the words, but at a certain point I needed to save myself, and that's really what it came down to. And when I had to think about the question of will he come back in to this space that I asked him to leave, my whole body gave me the answer and it was absolutely not. I asked my body. My body said this and it was instantaneous. And so all I can say is and that's after and I am a Christian woman, it was after the years of journaling what is your will for me? What is this? What is this? What is this? What is this? It's after going to a priest who flat out told me no, the Catholic Church doesn't allow that, it doesn't matter.
And I said, well, that's just wrong, I mean so it was a journey. It was a long, very, very painful journey. It broke my heart, it broke my spirit, and I survived and I did what I did. Was it right? Actually, I'm going to say for me, for my daughter, yes, I believe what I did was the right thing for us. I can't say what's right for anybody else and I will never do that and I respect what Jamie and Kevin have done very much. I will also offer and one of the reasons I'm happy that Kevin is on this call is because I will also offer that. I believe Kevin you can correct me if I'm wrong that your level of honesty and contriteness was different, your situation. So maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's my experience.
Karen Covy Host19:30
What do you think about Kevin?
Kevin White Guest19:34
Okay. So I think there's just so much difference in people, right? One thing that I think that Jamie had in her toolbox is honestly anger, and I mean a powerful anger. So, if you like, if we just look at personality profiles, like Jamie is a driver in the disc I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but like she's powerful, okay. And so she was able to use that as a force against what was happening and express the severe pain that she had inside of her. And Polly. I'm not trying to. I just think that there's so much difference. I just honor what you did and what you chose and everyone can get help, but some of us you know, it's been a lot of pain for her.
20:41
I was definitely not trying to try that at the beginning. I think that that only I mean that came honestly, until the last year and a half, I haven't understood a lot of what I'm sharing with you today, until I got to the point where I was actually healing the problems behind the addiction. And actually now, today, I want to be, I want to be willing for growth. I just it's clear to me that all the ways that I wasn't willing before were harmful to me and to everyone else. And one thing I think that's important to keep in mind about this is that the addict here, in the situation where the addict is trying to heal, we have all the leverage. And so, unfortunately, because-.
Polly Fleming Guest21:42
That's a good point.
Kevin White Guest21:43
I can easily hurt you, even without intending to hurt you, but then, like, I need you to forgive me, to even you know what I'm saying.
Polly Fleming Guest21:51
Yeah, yeah, it's not the recourse. What's the recourse when you're married?
Kevin White Guest21:55
Yeah, yeah, even today, I really am still learning to empathize and to understand where she's coming from. I mean, that's something that we work on now, because so often I've had to be consumed to a certain extent. Had to and this is not completely true, but had to be consumed with, like, what's going on with me, and that probably has a lot to do with my personality, the fact that I'm a more emotional guy than some, you know, things like that, but anyway. So, Karen, turn back over to you, because I might be getting out of control here in all these different areas, but-.
Karen Covy Host22:37
Yeah, no, I think this is an awesome conversation because what people can see and hear from both of you is that a couple of things. Number one there isn't a one right way to get through this right.
That the decisions that any person or couple makes are unique to them, their personalities, their situation. But the one thing that I've heard from both of you the through line, whether the marriage survived or the marriage didn't survive is you got help. But to get through this kind of a situation, it seems to me that the person who's got the addiction has got to be willing to Kevin, to your point, admit that I have a problem and I'm going to go get help, and Polly the person who doesn't you know, who's living with the one with the addiction, you got help too. So it's all about getting the right help and support, because from my limited understanding of this, it all it grows out of underlying trauma and that to heal I would think that to bring up that trauma and heal it on your own has got to be a really tough task.
Kevin White Guest23:58
That's why we're here.
Polly Fleming Guest23:59
That's why we're here. We don't want people to go through this alone, and we're both here from a place of love for both sides of this and all parts of it. And it's not a black and white issue.
Karen Covy Host24:24
That's the hard part. But I think if you could both speak to the shame because I think the shame from both sides, whether you're the person who has to say I have an addiction or the person who has to say I'm married to somebody with an addiction and the shame that goes along with that do either one of you want to speak to that, because that has to be something that anybody in these situations faces.
Polly Fleming Guest24:51
I'll speak to that, Karen. I'll speak to that right now. It took me a really long time to tell anyone that that that this was happening in my marriage, and I think that that's why that's one of the reasons that it impacted me so, so deeply, is that I didn't get help right away because I was ashamed and I told one dear friend that I knew I could trust, but I didn't even tell my best friend from way back. I mean, I have many close friends but I didn't tell one that you would think I would right, you would think I would. Because here's the thing, here's what I was afraid of. I was afraid her answer to me would be so. But everybody does that, everybody, every guy does that. I thought that her answer and that would crush me because of how much I was being hurt every day. I thought that would crush me. And so what?
25:52
What was very empowering for me, I'll be totally honest is when, fast forward, years later, when I found out that there was an infraction, like there was a thing that happened with another woman that gave me the right to be, to be righteously angry, and at that point I said, I said I told her and I told other friends and I was just. I was angry and Kevin, you're absolutely right I deal with anger a lot differently than Jamie does. I'm a totally different person than she is. I internalize a lot. I had to come to terms with my own anger and I had to feel my own anger which terrified me. I'm still on that journey of you know anger and boundaries and healthy and being assertive. And could I have done better? Yes, of course I was doing the best that I could in that situation, but it's really important to note that I was ashamed and also the good Christian wife.
Karen Covy Host27:14
Yeah, I will say this. I have in my coaching, had a number of clients who have been on either side of this issue. Right, and it's striking to me and this is anecdotal data, I can't back it up with any studies but to a person they were religious of some sort of some variation and various kinds, but and I'm not exactly sure why there is that correlation. Kevin, do you have any insight into that?
Kevin White Guest27:50
Well, okay. So I do think it goes back to the shame thing. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to dissect this, but okay. So if, if you're so, if you feel this heavy shame and all of us don't want to deal with that until we understand how bad it is, right, then we want to deal with it. But, like in the, in the absence of understanding how bad that is, it's almost like what? What a lot of religious.
I'm more spiritual than I used to be religious now, but I understand there's a lot of religious people out there and I could just say, like, if you could eliminate the judgment side of it, then it becomes a lot more healthy, right, and so self-judgment of the shame is what keeps you stuck. It kept me stuck. I'll just say it for me. Like it definitely kept me stuck Because I and also closely aligned to that is some level of self righteousness or justification to be like, okay, I am getting help and it can't be God's fault, right, and I know it isn't, but you know what I'm saying. Like we're trying to justify things. Like I'm serving him, so somehow I've got to be in this, I've got to be moving forward. It's almost like that becomes your, mantra, your justification, right, like well, well, something's different, right? So, one little thing we find some little evidence that, oh, we're fine Now, if you didn't have that judgment, you didn't have all that, you might feel it a little bit more. And maybe that's what people that aren't living in that level of judgment are able to be free enough to say, okay, is this serving me or not? Versus being held by the judgment.
29:48
And I just want to say a couple of things about what you said, Polly, about. I tell I've been privileged as part of my healing to help some women that have dealt with this and I'm thankful to God that I've had that privilege because it's been healing for me to help. I mean, I've watched what I've done to Jamie and to be able to help her and others now is like huge for me. But I think the thing is like listening to your body. What Polly said earlier, like listen to your gut about this stuff. You got women, you have a way to know what's wrong. Listen to that. And I hear women sometimes justify like well, he just needs to relax, so he's using pornography before we're intimate or whatever, no, no he doesn't.
He needs healing. He needs to understand what the problem is. The connection you should have, that we can have as a couple is super powerful.
30:54
Yes anything that's preventing that can be fixed. I recommend to everyone the Giftof ear.com. It's a free book, it's very much. It's a guy that wrote a book telling all of us, but especially women, to listen to themselves, to listen to their intuition. And yeah, I'm right there with him. I think that if we listen early enough and don't justify and don't judge ourselves, then we can get help soon enough where hopefully you don't have to go to the level of divorce, but if you found don't just don't like, don't be hard on yourself, if it's too late, it's too late. You do at least a separation and figure it out from there, like, respect yourself.
Karen Covy Host
Polly, anything to add ?
Polly Fleming Guest31:46
Yeah, so there aren't a ton of resources available, for there's more now, but one that I found during the when I was going through it is a book called Hope After Betrayal and that's now a website HopeAfterBetrayal.com, by Meg Wilson, and one of the things that she wrote was grace doesn't remove the consequences of poor choice. It removes the need to condemn. So it can still be done with. Everything can be done with grace and with love, and that would be that's a really important message. She also says trust your gut.
32:33
Some of these things can't be explained logically. Some of these things, these are decisions that are life altering decisions. No one likes them. I wasn't happy to make the decision and I would guess that sometimes, some days it was like that for Jamie and Kevin don't like it Like some days it would have felt easier to bail, right, I mean, and so I also had to like deal with my own judgment on leaving. Yeah, and there's a lot there. So, yeah, it's, enabling and protecting a person from natural consequences is stalling that person's growth too, and there is a part of me that absolutely knew deep, deep down that I had to remove myself from the situation, because my tendency is to help other people and enable and love and support and be a very comfortable place, while that was destroying me.
Karen Covy Host33:39
Yeah.
Polly Fleming Guest33:39
Does that make sense?
Karen Covy Host33:40
Yeah, that makes total sense and I think that both of you, what you're saying is it's so powerful for other people to hear that it's about understanding, about using your head and your heart and your gut and this whole apparatus, and, as someone who works with people making big life decisions in a variety of contexts, that is always, in my opinion, going to be the gold standard, because you, from what I hear you saying, you guys, you can't think your way through this problem, right, you're both shaking your heads no, no, no, no, no, no. Right, it takes more, and listening to your gut is so important. But this has been such a great conversation. I've just got one more question I want to bring a full circle to both of you and Polly. I'll start with you. If you had one piece of advice to give to someone who is in a relationship or a marriage with somebody who had a porn addiction, in other words, if you could have given some advice to a younger you, what would you have said?
Polly Fleming Guest34:58
Be really, really honest with yourself and work from a place of loving yourself. Make decisions not from a place of fear. Make decisions from a place of love that is grounded in compassion for yourself. And for your partner, and for your partner, and first for yourself, because that's what it has to be.
Karen Covy Host35:31
Yeah, I think what's beautiful about what you're bringing to the conversation is I don't hear the condemnation, the bitterness, the anger in your voice and it shows up in who you are and you seem more at peace because of it.
Polly Fleming Guest35:49
Thank you. So I think I think love has to drive. If I, when I made the decision to even do this conversation, if I couldn't do it from a place of love, I don't want to do it. That doesn't help.
Karen Covy Host36:07
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Kevin. What about you? What advice would you give to someone especially? You know, most of the time there are female porn addicts, but most of the time it tends to be men. What advice would you give to a guy in your situation, a younger version of you?
Kevin White Guest36:29
to get help from some type of it could be a coach, but like someone that understands the trauma that potentially is behind the addiction. Because what really like I made progress from 2014 to 2015, through 2017, 2018, probably 2019, somewhere in there is when I would say I was a healed like from a standpoint of pornography didn't control me anymore, but until the last year and a half when I really understood the trauma behind it and it wasn't like big it's not necessarily like huge. I wasn't abused that could be true, but I wasn't sexually abused. I wasn't like. I probably was emotionally abused but who isn't?
37:23
But if we could understand ourselves enough to know how little things made an impact on us, and then that knowledge is just so freeing and it has been for me and then it helps me to see an empathize with other people and to forgive myself. Like that's huge, with enough knowledge to where you can forgive yourself. I mean, especially if there's just a ton you've downed others. We need that knowledge. We need to understand how we got there so that we can have real forgiveness for ourselves.
Karen Covy Host38:06
Yeah, Kevin, that is just so powerful Because it's especially when you've done something that society says is wrong, bad, disgusting, all the shame back to the shame that gets piled on, to a pornography addiction, to be able to find the place in yourself where you can say, yeah, I did all these things, but I forgive myself, I love myself anyway. It's a game changer and I think, from what I'm hearing both of you say, it's kind of the only way to make that shift into healing and into the life that you really want to live, where you're free of the addiction and, Polly in your case, where you're healed to the point where you're not just getting in the next relationship with another person who is an addict, so that you're an enabler for that.
Polly Fleming Guest39:02
That's a very important point is that it's not just like oh yeah, that's easy, I'll just no. It was a healing journey for me too, and it didn't stop. It's still not stopped, just like all of us. There's no difference. We're all here with our own mess. We're just of different. It's different colors.
Karen Covy Host39:24
Yeah, different colors of mess.
Polly Fleming Guest39:26
Yeah, we don't know, but I think one last thing I would like to share is that, for women is that when I say be honest, what I mean is if your spouse is continuing with unhealthy behavior and not owning it. That's what I'm talking about is be honest with yourself, because you forgiving that person doesn't mean that you have to, even in Christianity. Let's just go there. It doesn't mean that you have to maintain a friendship or a marriage or anything. It just doesn't mean that forgiveness. It just means that you can walk away knowing you did all you could, but it's ultimately not yours. It's not yours.
Karen Covy Host40:18
Yeah.
Polly Fleming Guest40:20
So it's a choice that somebody else will have to make, and we can only do so much.
Karen Covy Host40:26
That's great advice. It reminds me of the old I think it was a Simon and Garfunkel song that said people see what they want to see and disregard the rest.
40:34
Yes, it's very easy to do, but I want to thank you again both. A special thank you to both of you, because this isn't an easy topic to talk about. The courage and the bravery that you showed in having this conversation and opening yourself up for the benefit of other people is just profound. So thank you very much. And if you could, each of you, just tell our listeners where they can find you if they want to learn more or follow up or anything like that.
Polly Fleming Guest41:05
I'm going to jump in here to promote Kevin because he does support recovering addicts and their spouses, and he's really good at it and that's a rare thing to find, and he has supported me. So, Kevin, you go, give your information
Kevin White Guest41:26
All right well, I almost just want to just say my podcast, because that will link to everything else and, like two years ago it was a big. The podcast has been big for me in dealing with the shame and dealing with all this stuff and I feel called to have done that and shared our story. So if you're interested in reaching out to me or to hearing more about the subject, the podcast is the Business Addicts Podcast. It's Business Attics. Oh shoot, I forget the website here. But yeah, it's businessaddictspodcast.com, where you can find me at Kevin KevinGWhite.com as well, which will have a link to the podcast.
Karen Covy Host42:13
So, yeah, we will link to all of this in the show notes. So if anyone does want to follow up, the resources will be there for them to do that. And, Polly, where can people find you?
Polly Fleming Guest42:23
I think the best option is probably right now LinkedIn, and that's just Polly Fleming with 1M LinkedIn and I'm in Madison Wisconsin.
Karen Covy Host42:34
Awesome. Well, thank you again both so much for sharing your story and being so open and honest with all this information. I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people and for those of you out there who are listening, for those of you who are watching, if you liked what you heard, if you enjoy this podcast, please do me a big favor. Give it a thumbs up, like subscribe, and I look forward to talking to you again next time.
