Episode Description - Divorce Without Drama: How to Protect Your Kids in Divorce
When an eight-year-old girl defined her parents' divorce as "good," Sarah Armstrong, VP of Global Marketing Operations at Google, knew she was on to something important. After her marriage dissolved, Sarah was determined to put her daughter first. She and her husband did that so well that now Sarah teaches others how to protect their kids in divorce, too.
According to Sarah, the key to minimizing the damage to children in a divorce lies in parents developing a "compartmentalization muscle." (i.e. the ability to set aside your own triggers and emotional reactions for your child's sake.)
In this podcast episode, Sarah shares powerful examples of taking the high road, from showing up together at parent-teacher conferences to the seemingly small but crucial decisions like ensuring kids don't feel like "professional travelers" shuttling belongings between homes.
Sarah offers crucial mindset tips as well as simple, concrete strategies for developing communication that actually works: when to text, when to email, when to call, and how to batch topics so co-parenting stays clear without becoming constant. If your co-parent won’t meet you in the middle, Sarah outlines how to control the controllables, stop feeding the conflict, and keep the focus on your child’s stability.
If you or anyone you know is divorcing with children, this podcast episode will give you the mindset shift you need and the practical guidance you crave to really protect your kids in divorce.
Show Notes
About Sarah
Sarah Armstrong has spent more than 25 years in global marketing and is now VP of Global Marketing Operations at Google. She is widely acknowledged as an industry leader in her area of expertise. She is also the author of The Mom’s Guide to a Good Divorce, appearing on more than 75 podcasts and other media. She lives in San Francisco.
Connect with Sarah
You can connect with Sarah on LinkedIn at Sarah Madden Armstrong. To learn more about Sarah visit her website at The Juggling Act or The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce. You can reach out to Sarah at [email protected].
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Sarah
- Sarah Armstrong, VP of Global Marketing Operations at Google, wrote The Mom’s Guide to a Good Divorce after experiencing her own divorce and wanting to help other women approach it with grace and intention.
- She emphasizes that divorce is not a death sentence — it can be done respectfully, prioritizing children’s emotional health and stability.
- Sarah and her ex chose a collaborative divorce process, focusing on keeping their daughter Grace’s needs at the center of every decision.
- Her daughter coined the term “good divorce”, defining it as when “the mommy and daddy are nice to each other,” underscoring the impact of parental behavior on children’s well-being.
- Sarah advocates developing a “compartmentalization muscle” to avoid emotional reactions and model maturity and calm for children.
- She stresses the importance of taking the high road, demonstrating cooperation and kindness at school events, sports, and other family settings.
- Practical strategies include minimizing disruptions—keeping essentials (clothes, supplies) at both homes and preventing children from feeling like “professional travelers.”
- Her concept of “minimizing the gaps” encourages parents to fill physical and emotional voids left by divorce (e.g., replacing missing family photos to maintain a sense of continuity).
- Sarah urges parents to communicate intentionally, not constantly—using texts, emails, or parenting apps to stay organized while maintaining boundaries.
- Her second book, The Art of the Juggling Act, offers bite-sized advice for working parents, written to help them thrive rather than just survive in balancing career and family life.
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Transcript
Divorce Without Drama: How to Protect Your Kids in Divorce
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
collaborative divorce, divorce mindset, children and divorce
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Sarah Armstrong
Karen Covy: 0:03
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Sarah Armstrong. And Sarah has spent more than 25 years in global marketing and is now VP of Global Marketing Operations at Google. She's widely acknowledged as an industry leader in her area of expertise, and she's also the author of The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce and The Art of the Juggling Act, Bite-sized Guide for Working Parents. Sarah's appeared on more than 75 podcasts and in other media. She lives and works in San Francisco. Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sarah Armstrong:
Great to be with you. Looking forward to our discussion.
Karen Covy:
I am thrilled to have you here. And but I'd like to start, there's a lot of questions I want to ask you, but I'd like to start with your backstory. I mean, why I think I know the answer, but for the audience, why write a book on divorce for working moms?
Sarah Armstrong: 1:32
Yeah, no, it's a great question. Um, so it's interesting. When I so I got divorced when my daughter was seven, and um, so this, and she's now 23, by the way. So it was a while back. But um, when I got divorced, I had made a decision. I'd watched very ugly divorce growing up. My parents have been married for 57 years. Amazing partnership. Yeah, beautiful partnership. They're still they're still alive and wonderful partnerships. So, but I watched really ugly divorce growing up and I thought if we're going to go down this path, I don't want it to look like what I watched growing up. I was very conscious, and I said that to my soon-to-be ex-husband, I don't want to do it that way. Grace, Grace deserves better. And so um, as I went through our divorce, we made some very conscious decisions. And then about five years, a couple years after my divorce, one of my friends came and said, Could you help me think through this? And I should also say, Karen, I'm not an advocate for divorce. I think couples that are married should stay married. But if you decide to get a divorce, there's a way to do it. So my friend asked me for advice. I helped her and then a couple other friends. So over the course of about five years, I had a number of very close friends where we'd sit in my living room, I'd give them, you know, little tips and things, and each of them individually said, You should really write this stuff down. And I laughed and I said, Huh, I go, that's funny. I'm not a writer. I, you know, I write in bullet points for business, but that's not a goal. And so I was at a business center actually in Mexico City about five years after my divorce, and a colleague and friend of mine turned to me and he said, Sarah, you're so happy. And I said, Yeah. He goes, but you're divorced. And I looked at him, I said, Selman, getting a divorce is not a death sentence. I said you know, I'm happy, Grace, my daughter's happy, Max Man. I said, We're all happy, and yes, we went through a divorce. And I mentioned that my friends were um encouraging me to write my a book about this. And he said, You really should. Well, I got a got on the plane from Mexico City the next morning. I opened my personal laptop and I opened, and I opened it up and I wrote the first line that said, This book is written by a girl who I've never ever thought she would get a divorce, who got a divorce of what she learned along the way. And that's actually the first page of my book. And then I wrote 90% of it on Delta, because I am in a I was in a global role at the time and I still am, but I wrote most of it after I was done working on the plane. I instead of watching a movie or reading a book, I would, I wrote my book. And so that's it, yeah, that's how it all that's it. It's really to give back. I mean, I think this is such a hard phase of life, Karen, for so many women.
Karen Covy: 4:12
I agree. I and I'm really thrilled that you did that because so many people do think of divorce as a death sentence. And single parenting after divorce becomes just incredibly difficult for so many people. So that's what I wanted to talk to you about, or some of the tips and things that you've learned all along the way. But I also have to know you went through a collaborative divorce. Is that right?
Sarah Armstrong:
I did go, we did go through a collaborative divorce. And that was a very conscious decision to do.
Karen Covy:
Okay, so collaborative divorce is an entirely different divorce process, right? You're not, you spend minimal amount of time in court, most of the time in conference rooms. You and your spouse are very much involved in your own divorce, but you also have a team of professionals supporting you. Um and as somebody who's practiced in the area of collaborative divorce for decades, um, I'm really curious, how was your experience?
Sarah Armstrong: 5:11
You know, our experience, I will say, first of all, I wasn't familiar with the concept until I got because I always say no one gets married to get divorced, right? It's not like you're planning for, so when I get divorced, this is how I'm gonna do it. And no one generally gets divorced for positive reasons. There's usually some type of trigger. But the reason I felt collaborative divorce was right for us is you know, children don't get to make the decision of whether their parents get divorced, but they're the most significantly impacted. And the reason I think the collaborative divorce process is so uh powerful and so uh we had such a positive is it put Grace at the center of everything. Like everything we talked about was were the decisions we needed to make about her and the discussions we need to have about raising her, co-parenting her across two households for the duration of her being raised in these. So, you know, it was for the next 11 years in our instance. And so I just felt like it really offered us the right forum and the right tools to do that. And then quite honestly, the way I wrote my book was very much in keeping with a lot of those decisions. And a lot of the there's so many specific decisions that you have to make for the long term, which you don't think you should have to think about, but it is part of the process to really outline a parenting plan and really go through the details in a way that's putting your kids front and center.
Karen Covy: 6:31
So let's talk about that because you know, so many parents they intend to keep their kids in the forefront. They intend to put their kids' best interest first, but it's so it's divorce is so emotional and there's so much junk going back and forth and a lot of decisions to make and a lot of emotions are running high. How can you know, if some parent is facing divorce, how can they do what you did? How can they go about really putting their kids first?
Sarah Armstrong: 7:03
Yeah, no, it's a great question. You know, I I generally reflect on the fact that, you know, when a couple gets divorced and children involved, the stakes are so high, you know, and we owe it to our children to ensure that they're not collateral damage due to this divorce that we decided to do. You know, and I always say that even though a couple decided to no longer want to be married to one another, you know, we've we we've made a commitment to our children and we that we've brought them into the world to be in the healthiest environment possible. And we I joke that we cover the plugs, you know, we put bike on with them, then we feel them organic milk, we do all these things. But then when we get to a and we want them to be safe and healthy and happy, but when we get into a divorce situation, the toxicity that can come with that and the long-term impact, Karen, that that can have on children, on their view on relationships, their view on marriage, their overall happiness in life. So I actually think it's our responsibility as parents in this moment of divorce to take co-parenting seriously and you know, with the intent of having a good divorce. And that really means setting aside how you feel about the other person and honestly not allowing it, not allowing those things that can trigger you to be triggered. And I know that's easier or um easier said than done in many instances, but you know, I go back to Grace was the one that coined good divorce for me as a term. And the way the interesting story there is we were standing at a CVS. Um, she was a year after divorce, she's eight, and there was a celebrity couple um getting divorced, and it was on the People magazine on the newsstand. And she looked at me, she goes, Mommy, is that a good divorce or a bad divorce? And I said, I don't know, Grace. What's the difference between a good divorce and a bad divorce? She goes, Well, a good divorce is when the mommy and daddy are nice to each other, like you and daddy, and a bad divorce is when they scream and yell at each other.
Karen Covy:
Sounds like a good definition to me.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah, I said and I said, you know what? It's hard to tell from a magazine cover what that is. But Karen, I did walk out and think a year after we've done such a fundamental shift to Grace's life, literally, she's living across two homes. I mean, all that comes with a divorce situation, the fact that she could say, We had a good divorce, I knew we were on to something. Okay. And I do think the collaborative process set us up for that. But I also think it was a mindset that we had going into it that regardless of again, our feelings for being in the same house together, what was going to be best for Grace? And we kept, we had kept that front and center, quite honestly raising her, you know, even till today. She's 23, but we still co-parent from a distance, you know, for what you do. But you know, you're still coaching your kids, even at 23. And my ex-husband and I compare notes, and you know, we're still we're still in this to help guide her in her life.
Karen Covy: 9:50
Tell me, tell me about that. What was your mindset when it came to grades? What made you be able to co-parent in peace? Because I know even people who have gone through the divorce process in a reasonably okay way, that doesn't stop them from ending up back in court fighting over and over and over for years during the kids, their kids' childhood. How did you manage to avoid all that?
Sarah Armstrong: 10:18
Yeah, no, it's a great question. You know, I think part of it was mindset is essential, right? The first part. The other part is, you know, the compartmentalization that you need to have. And I talk about a compartmentalization muscle, because the things that are going to trigger you throughout either preparing for your divorce during or post your divorce, and throughout that time from that ex-spouse or ex-partner, um, you have to decide a lot of those moments are the things that trigger you then ending up in court down the road, right? They're like the, they're like the they're like the trigger moment. And so I think part of it is when those moments happen, taking a moment saying, you know what, I'm not going to let that button be pushed right now. I'm going to take a step back, I'm going to go for a walk, I'm going to talk to my therapist, talk to a friend, whatever the case is. But what I'm not going to do is two things. One, react to my spouse or partner and give them the benefit of seeing me react, but more importantly, not see my kids react. Because I think that is one of the things your kids carry with them for years. So there's two things, the court side of things, and then literally the damage you're doing to your child's emotional psyche over the course of time. And so I think for me, that compartment the mindset and then the compartmentalization muscle, which are both very much mental things, are really important pieces of this. And I know it's, by the way, I know again, it's an emotional roller coaster to go through divorce. It's one of the hardest things you're going to go through. I mean, literally hardest things, but it is something that if you can do it with intent of doing the best thing for your kids at every step of it, and just keeping that as kind of your North Star throughout, I do think you can go through it and avoid some of those going back into, you know, going back into court and all those things that come with that dynamic.
Karen Covy: 12:06
Yeah, I think what you just said that was so important, and I really hope that everyone listening to it hears it is the fact that you were modeling for your daughter good behavior. You did not want to see her react badly to whatever it was that you was going on with you and your ex. And so many times people they think that children learn by what they say, like that you tell them, oh, you know, honey, I love you, or blah, blah, blah, whatever the good thing is. And they really learn by what they see.
Sarah Armstrong: 12:42
Absolutely. And you know, I'll tell, yeah, so true, Karen. You know, I talk about taking the high road. You know, and sometimes the high road can be really steepBut you know what? I've never regretted taking the high road. And I can tell you your point about what your children see. I mean, at one moment in our divorce journey sticks out for me, and it's when Grace was in sixth grade. So five years after our divorce at her school, the parents and the child go into a parent-teacher conference together. That's the intent. And so my ex-husband and I and Grace go in to the sit-down with the teacher. We have an hour-long conversation, great conversation. At the end of it, the teacher looks at us and goes, Wait a minute, are you two divorced? And I said, Oh yeah, we've been divorced for five years. She goes, I had no idea. And I looked at her, I said, Well, it didn't occur to me to walk in and say, Hi, we're divorced. Can we talk about Grace's how Grace is doing in sixth grade? And she said to us, she said, You would be shocked at how few parents that are in a divorce situation could come into this office for one hour with their child and talk about how their child's doing in school. She said, It is very, very rare. And she goes, and it really makes me sad. And I said, I go, it makes me really sad to hear that because what's what should be more important to her to a parent besides their children's health, you know, the next probably thing in line is like, how are they doing in school? And I said, that's the same. By the way, Grace is hearing this whole conversation. You know, I mean, she was there. She was, I mean, she was part so, but I think that's the thing, how we show up, how we show up at the soccer game, standing on the same side of the field, maybe even next to each other, how we show up at the school play, how you know, how you show up at all of those moments for your children's lives, birthday parties, you know, again, you might not choose to live in the same house, fine, but for those moments that are important to your child, how you show up and what you're showing them is we're here for you, the child. We're not here for each other. That's okay, we're here for you. And also you're showing the rest of society that quite honestly has such a mental model that divorces ugly, bad, and people hate each other, that they don't expect you to then stand there and cheer for your child. And I'm like, you know, the perception uh, you know, of divorce in society, you know, and that it's something, you know, there's just not enough conversation about having a good divorce, everyone expects the bad one. And I think it's this scarlet letter that we actually carry once we go through divorce that we're supposed to have everything, kind of this negative cloud that follows us. And like, I don't, you know, I don't believe that, Karen. I don't believe that you should you get to you go going through divorce is an action, right? You get divorced. But it shouldn't be this negative cloud that then follows you because you've gotten divorced because you weren't happy in the situation and you're trying to be happier.
Karen Covy: 15:32
I know it makes no sense that you do it to be happier and then you make yourself miserable for the rest of your life or the rest of your children's childhood.
Sarah Armstrong: 15:41
Yeah. It's just like it doesn't, that doesn't, it doesn't connect for me that that's why that that's how it's framed, but that's how it's framed in society. And I just think we my goal again of giving back with this book and talking to you and others is just to shape to shape and change the societal perception that a good divorce is an attainable outcome because I truly believe it is, but it takes effort, it's not easy. You know, there's definitely things along the way. It's like, ooh, that again, taking the high road and other aspects, it can be really hard, but it is so worth it, you know, to know that at the end of the day your child has gone through this process of their parents being divorced, but it's not going to be the defining factor of their childhood or their life.
Karen Covy: 16:23
Yeah, I love that. But if somebody's in the thick of it or just starting the process, that's when emotions are really, really running high. How can they go about getting the good divorce that you have? What are the most important things that they should focus on? Yeah.
Sarah Armstrong: 16:41
So I think a couple, a couple things, and I'm going to give a couple of kind of more tangible examples of actions you can take because I've talked about the mindset and the mental side with compartmentalization muscle. But one of the things is your child, the biggest impact from a divorce is how your child has to live their day-to-day life. You know, you still get to sleep in the same bed every night. You don't have to figure out where your clothes are every, you know. So one of the things that we consciously did, and I go back to as we were deciding to get to a divorce and in the collaborative process, there was a child specialist, a therapist, right, that we took Grace to in the and as we were telling Grace on a Friday that we were going to do this, on Monday, she was in meeting with Mr. David as referred to as we referred to him. Um, you know, we met with him before we that before uh we took Grace there, and he sat us both down and he looked at us and he looks at me and goes, Sarah, do you travel? I go, Yeah, I travel internationally for my job. And he looks at my ex-husband, he says, Do you travel? And he says, Yeah, I travel domestically. He goes, Well, Grace is about to become a professional traveler. She's gonna travel every week for the next 11 years until she goes off to school and she's gonna have to pack a bag. And honestly, Karen, I burst into tears. I was like, that is not what I want for Grace. Like, that is not the life I want for her. And so we walked out of that session and I looked at my soon-to-be ex-husband and I said, We've got to figure out how Grace did not feel like she's a professional travel of the week and living out of a bag, basically. And so now what I'm gonna share now, in terms of kind of tangible things you can do, there are some socioeconomic considerations, but what we tried to do is make sure that the basics were at both houses, you know, so that when Grace left for school with her backpack that had her books or laptop, whatever, that's all she left with. She didn't have to carry an extra bag to mom or dad's house and be the one kid because she was the first of her classmates to have parents go through divorce in first grade. So I didn't want her standing in carpool line, like, why do you have an extra bag? Well, I'm going to my dad's house. I'm going to my mom's house. And so we took the steps to try to get the basics in both homes. Now you can't do everything, you know, you can't there, you know, there's certain things that that you can't replicate. And so, but where we could get, you know, two soccer uniforms, I'm like, fine, let's get an extra soccer uniform. Then we don't have to. Now the dress-up shoes, we might only have one pair. And then and somehow, Karen, all the socks got to one house. I don't know how that happened. But when they got, I I call them rebalancing days. So I'd say to my ex husband, hey, you have all the socks, or you have all, you know, whatever pieces. I go, we need to rebalance. And the thing was, it wasn't for Grace at age seven, eight, nine, ten to go into her drawers and figure out what wasn't supposed to be there. That's not her job. So I said, go figure out. And so he would do it or I would do it. We'd rebalance. And then when we did our drop-off, we handed each other the bag and we put the clothes away. Because again, why does Grace have to re, you know, rebalance her clothes? She should just sort of walk in the house and be like, okay, I'm in my other house, you know. And so, but these are again, these are very, you know, may seem like tactics or like little things, but they all add up to a child who's living in this way. And I wanted so badly for her not to feel that feeling of being a professional traveler. So that's something that those were the steps that we took. And that's just an example.
Karen Covy: 19:58
What do you what did you do to minimize the um I left my soccer cleats at dad's house or I left my homework at mom's house, something that couldn't be replicated, and kids forget.
Sarah Armstrong: 20:11
Right, kids forget. Now, here's the thing those moments definitely happened, even as, and I'm a I'm a very organized individual, but I mean, those things happen. So great examples. One morning she came back, she goes, Mom, it's dress up day at school, and um my shoes are at dad's. Now we had my ex-husband and I decided we only live 10 minutes away from each other, in fairness, and that was purposeful. Um, so I looked at her. Now I would cut it very short that morning. We only technically had five minutes to get out of the door and be on time for school. And I looked her go, let's go to dad, you know. And I just, you know, and by the way, I didn't say grace. Why didn't she remember that stress up day and your shoes at dad's? We could have gone last night. Like again, not her fault.
Sarah Armstrong: 20:48
Not her fault for her to have to keep up with where her shoes are. So I just had to take a deep breath because I knew we were gonna be late. Both of us are gonna be late, me for work or for school. But I said, you know what? That's okay. I mean, those are those moments where you have to roll with it, but don't blame your child or don't say, Why didn't you remember? Because again, it is not their job to remember.
Karen Covy: 21:09
I love that.Because so many parents would do exactly that. Why didn't you do and then they don't want to interact with or deal with their ex. And so it's like, well, you're just gonna have to do dress up without the shoes.
Sarah Armstrong: 21:24
Right, right. And if but my thing is if you can remedy it so that they aren't the one kid at school that doesn't have their drop-up dress up shoes because they're at dad's or mom's house. I mean, that's the thing because those are all those micro moments where like, well, I had dress-up day, but I didn't, I wasn't fully dressed up because my shoes were at my dad's house. You know, and that's those are those moments that that get into the fabric of a child's life and they set the tone of how they feel about the situation that they've been put in. You know, um, and I can share, Karen, one reflection though. When Grace had it, and this is this was a moment great. When Grace had it up to college, she came home right the August, she was packing up for school. She had been at her dad's house and we were having dinner, and she goes, Mom, I'm calling this the great consolidation. And I go, What do you mean? She said, When I go off to college, it'll be the first time in 11 years that all my stuff's at one place.
Karen Covy:
Wow.
Sarah Armstrong:
Yeah. Now, having said that, she said it in a very matter-of-fact way, wasn't, you know, putting blame anywhere. She was just like matter-of factly. And I said to her, I said, Grace, you have never once complained about going back and forth between two homes. Not once. You've never once, you have just rolled with it for the last 11 years. I am so happy that you get to go off to college and have all of your stuff in one place.
Karen Covy: 22:43
Yeah. That I mean, as parents who aren't doing the back and forth shuffle themselves, right? You like I would never have thought of that. That, you know, finally all of our stuff is in one place. That's amazing. But you know, you have another concept that we talked about called minimizing the gaps. Can you talk about that and what is that?
Sarah Armstrong: 23:09
Yes, yeah, this is an important one. I felt really strongly about this, and I think it's one that we overlook as um in these divorce situations and in changing the environment. So our kids' physical environment, you know, if you're if you like in our situation, Grace and I were going to stay in the house. My ex-husband was moving, but we were diving up household items and furniture and artwork and photos and all the things. And so um I didn't want to have big gaps in the house where things used to be and to make sure that they were filled. Now, I, for example, we had a piece of art over the living room, you know, fireplace. I didn't, I couldn't afford at the time to buy another piece of art. So I put a mirror up there, right? I mean, so I put something though versus just taking down the art and not having. But the most of the story that sticks with me is we had a hallway of family black and white photos that I had put together over the years. It was a mixture of my ex-husband and my family photos, this long hallway. And it had been up there, you know, well before Grace was born. So it's, you know, many years. And but I needed to give my ex-husband his photos. So I made, I took the effort, and honestly, this was effort, to get other figure out other photos, get them framed. And one day I sent Grace down for a play date down the street. And I took the photos of my ex-husband and put them in a box, and then I put all the new photos up and I put the box away. And then Grace came home about an hour later, and I'm in the kitchen. I hear this little voice from the hallway say, Hey mom. And I go, uh, what's that, Grace? She goes, the wall has changed. And I mean, I literally stop at my tracks and I go, Well, what's changed? She said, There are more pictures of me up there, it looks great. And she ran up to her room. What she did say is, you know, you took all dad's photos down. But I can tell you, Karen, if I hadn't taken the effort or made the effort to get new photos framed him and put them up, if I just taken the photos down to give to my ex-husband and left those little hangers interspersed throughout the hallway, that visual would have been what Grace would be telling a therapist 10, 20 years later about her parents' divorce. So my parents got divorced, and my mom took all the photos of my dad off the wall and she left those little hangers.
Karen Covy: 25:20
I can just, I mean, that breaks my heart. Just you can get the visual immediately.
Sarah Armstrong: 25:25
Yeah, yeah. And then, but yeah, exactly. Now in her room, I should say there were photos of my, I'm a big photo person. So there were photos of my ex-husband, his family on a wall with interspersed with my family. That all stayed in her room till we till we moved when she was 18. So for 11 years, I walked into her room, and there's my ex-husband, there's my in-laws, there's my brother-in-law and sister-in-law. Like, but that's Grace's family. It's not for me to wipe them clean from her life. They are her family. And so again, those are that's taking the high road.
Karen Covy: 25:55
Yeah, and that is so important. You know, so many people wouldn't do that. They'd be, they would think, well, we're not together anymore. Those pictures have to come down, right? And the fact that you could leave them up there was huge.
Sarah Armstrong: 26:10
Yeah. Well, just it was again, it sends a signal to Grace. This is, you know, this is your dad, this is your family. Just because I'm not married to him anymore, he's still your dad. Those are still your grandparents. Those are, you know. And so I don't know. But again, it it definitely takes um, you know, takes some takes a little uh mental mental strength. But I going back to the hallway piece, I do look back and think, you know, that was such a learning for me. That the kids see everything. I thought, by the way, Karen, I thought that hallway was wallpaper to her. I didn't even think she noticed it. I mean, she'd she ran up and down that hallway 50 times a day. I mean, I didn't know it even registered. But the fact she noticed within minutes that it had changed.
Karen Covy: 26:53
Wow. Yeah, that that is super powerful for any parent to hear, you know, because so many times they we all say, oh, kids are resilient, oh, they'll get over it, oh, they blah, blah, blah. And what you're really doing is fueling their therapy need, you know, down the road, right? Yeah. And that's not what anyone wants.
Sarah Armstrong: 27:16
No, and I do, and I do think kids are resilient to a point. Like again, Grace was incredibly resilient to live between two homes for all those years and just kind of roll with it. But I think we were trying to set her up to be able to do that to the best of her ability. And I think that's the point of all of this. It's like, you know, yes, they're gonna, we all have it's a massive change. It's a whole new way of living for everyone involved. But how can you set it up so that if it's going to be a change, there's only so much resilience that they have to show on a day-to-day basis? Because there's a lot that they have to show at just the baseline, let alone these additive things that we're talking about.
Karen Covy: 27:52
Right. What do you do if you're two working parents, which you were, and there had to be times when you were overwhelmed and exhausted. And how did you manage the logistics of day-to-day life so that you minimize the impact on Grace?
Sarah Armstrong: 28:09
Yeah, no, it's a great question. You know, I think the logistics of life are very real as a working parent with two parents in the household, let alone when you become a single working mom or dad. Um, so a couple things. First, you know, I think being, I mean, being organized, I say that and I don't take it for granted because I know that's not always a muscle that everyone has. But, you know, one of the things that I tried to do is be really clear. My ex-ex-husband and I really tried to be clear on what the next week looked ahead. You know, we really tried to communicate, you know, very clearly with each other. Now, it wasn't necessarily, by the way, that we needed to be texting each other every minute of the day. A lot of times I would kind of collect the topics and then say, hey, I need to talk through these things with you. Because it because you've chosen not to be with this person doesn't mean you have to interact with them constantly, even though you're co-parenting. So, like selective approaches to how you're communicating, I think is something you need to think about as you're managing the logistics of life. Um, we actually had a we were in a situation where we did have a nanny that was helping to uh raise Grace with us, and she went she went between the treat two homes and had the ability to do that, um, you know, as needed. Um, and I think the other thing is just having a support network that's beyond we didn't have family in town, our families were out of state. And so figuring out who are those people that you can call on when you need that, whatever it is, um just you know, knowing who that supports friends, neighbors, you know, um, so I think that's an important point too, that sometimes we think we have to do it all by ourselves and we shouldn't feel that way. And so I think that's another piece of piece of the puzzle is how do you really manage um, you know, the day to day demands, but feel like it's okay to ask for help.
Karen Covy: 29:55
Well, you know, the communication too is such an important part. I love that you say you. You don't have to text every day. Did you and your husband use how did you communicate? Like text message, phone calls, parenting app, what worked for you?
Sarah Armstrong: 30:11
Yeah, great question. So for us, and at the stage of um we were primarily text, uh, I'd say text first, um, email for like big scheduling things, like if there was a big scheduling consideration of like how we were looking at the year. Um, and then I'd say, you know, phone call was a follow-up on kind of key things. We were in a stage uh generationally where parenting, like the divorce parenting apps that help you kind of communicate, it was it was earlier days, so that wasn't as much of a thing when we got divorced, but I know it's very much of a thing now, and I think they're a great tool if that's something that um people need in terms of kind of managing the communication. So I think there's lots of different ways, and you have to kind of see as a couple what's your best mode of communicating with each other and how is it best to manage the details that you're trying to manage together because it is if you're going to co-parent, there's a lot in raising a child these days. There's so many details on a weekly basis, you know, the whether it's the after-school activities or, you know, I mean, all of the things. Um, so I think it is something that you just have to figure out what you're right, both the mode and the frequency, you know, and not feeling like you have to like at in the moment it occurs to you, ping that person, say, is that really urgent right now? Or why don't I collect five of those things and then say, Hey, can we talk for 15 minutes? I've got these five things I want to run through with you.
Karen Covy: 31:34
I love that. Uh, what if I know you and your ex were able to have a good divorce and were able to remain on good terms as co-parents. That doesn't always happen, but you've also worked with other people, helped friends or family through the this. Do you have any tips for anyone who's dealing with a parent who or a co-parent who they can't communicate with or one who's just AWOL, like just absent all the time.
Sarah Armstrong: 32:02
Yeah, yeah. No, I think in both instances, well, some people ask me, can you have a good divorce if only one of you is willing to try? And I say, you know what, you can only control what you can control, right? Which is your actions, your mindset, your actions, and kind of how you approach things. And so, and I think again, your kids also see that that you're doing that. I always wanted to say to Grace, mom's doing the best I can. You know, that's that was one of my day-to-day mantras. So I think when you don't have a willing ex-spouse or ex-partner on the other side, you have to decide what is it that's feasible for you to expect of that individual or not. But the one thing I will say, Karen, was once you know what that situation is, lamenting what that situation is is not healthy for anyone. So if you have someone who isn't showing up or isn't there, it's like acknowledging it, being like, that's really unfortunate. And that may, you know, it's but to harp on that and to make that the thing, what you're allowing that situation to do is to continue to be the focus of your day-to-day life and continue to define your life for the future that's all around this divorce and all around that other person. And so I think that's one of the things I see a lot is people that, you know, because that negative influence is still kind of in front of you, that you let that be the focus versus saying, okay, almost again, I use my compartmentalization muscle. I'm like, unfortunate, but let me focus on the things that I can do that are positive with my children or in this moment. And so I think that's again, those are all just choices we make. But I do think it takes a lot to do. And I know what I'm saying is not an easy thing, but I think if you put the lens of your children seeing all this, do they want to see you continually badmouth that individual that technically is their other parent? Or do you want to say, you know what, just like almost walk past it or move past it and just say, let's focus on what we can do? Like dad didn't show up or dad isn't there. Okay, well, I'm here and I'm here for you. And you know, let's do what we can do together.
Karen Covy: 34:07
Yeah, I love that. Um, I'm curious, you wrote your first book. Um and then you wrote a second one. Why do the second one? What was the impetus for that?
Sarah Armstrong: 34:18
Yeah, it's actually a funny story because I literally don't consider myself a writer. Now I have two books. But uh, you know, the second one, the Art of the Juggling Act, which is really these bite-sized pieces for working parents, actually, I started writing things down about um this type of guidance before I even thought of before I was even divorced, because it was as I was raising Grace. And I was in a corporate world um working in global marketing at the Coca-Cola Company at the time. And I um I had a lot of young moms and young parents in my midst, and we would talk about raising kids, and they'd ask me for you know thoughts, and I'd share them, and when I'd share them, I'm oh that's a good thought. So I would write it down on my phone in a little list, but honestly, just so I could remember it for the next time I talked to someone, I never had any intent of you know writing a book of the topic. And so, but over the years I kept on adding to the list. And then once the divorce book and the good divorce came into to be, um, I thought, you know, there's something there. And I also I have the fortunate situation of working with a ton of young and amazing parents, even in my current role. And I see so many parents that are surviving and maybe not thriving in the way that I would want them to, because it's so hard these days to juggle everything. And it it's so hard. And so I just thought, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna write this stuff down and hopefully I can so this again is part of my giving back. It's um it, I've, you know, so I wrote it over the course of a number of years, and um I had a goal of just publishing it before Grace graduated from college, which was this last spring, and I published it a year ago. And it's um, you know, it's a very different topic, obviously. I mean, the divorce topic and the concept of a good divorce. I have passion for helping, as I mentioned, society change perception. On the juggling act, I just really want to help as many parents as possible enjoy the journey of raising their kids and not feel like they're so stretched they can't enjoy anything because Karen, it's really interesting. One of the things is we we grow up and we're educated in a lot of things, but we don't have any formal education on being a parent, right? We only have our life experience. And we also don't really get formal education on how to manage our careers. Okay, we get we get formal education on what we want to do in our career, potentially, depending on what you study in college, but in true, yeah, it depends. But the combination of being a parent and manage your career at the same time and how to do both of those well, and they're two of the most important things you're going to do, you know, in your life. I think is where the stress comes in and where the feeling of being stretched in both directions and not knowing how do I manage the day-to-day of this. And so the Art of the Juggling Act is literally both of my books are written in bite-sized pieces. There's, you know, a topic, a page, you know, or it could be a paragraph, it could be a whole page, and the table contents lays them all out by topic. So neither book is meant to be read cover to cover per se. They're just meant to be that guide along the journey of either going through a divorce or raising your children and kind of going, oh, I'm thinking about this. Let me see if there's a topic there.
Karen Covy: 37:14
I love that because I mean, oftentimes we all have the best intentions if you're a reader, and I am, but sometimes you can't get to the whole book. You can't get to, you know, like, and especially if it's a big book, you just sort of it sits on the shelf
Sarah Armstrong: 37:31
Absolutely. Well, I and I do joke that as working parents and definitely a mom going through divorce, you don't have time to read, you know. It's like now, having said that, I think because of how I've written it, it's meant to be that bite-sized piece. It's like you can read one page, like maybe before bad or as you get up and just like let me think about that one thing. And so that's why I wrote it in a very specific way. And it was a funny story is when I was publishing my the mom's guide to a good divorce, um, the person, the editor and who was helping me lay out the book, I said I only want one topic per page. She goes, Well, you're wasting paper. And I said, you know, I'll be and I said, I'll be environmentally conscious somewhere else, but I really only want one topic per page because I want because I wanted to create white space that you can think and you can you don't feel like you have to get to the next thing. It's like just take that one topic in, reflect on it, and then only turn the page or only go to the next topic when you're ready.
Karen Covy: 38:27
That makes so much sense. And you know, speaking of your books, um, if people want to get copies, if they want your guidance and help, which I highly recommend, um, where can where's the best place for them to get the books?
Sarah Armstrong: 38:40
Yes, so all of the books are available on all the kind of online sources, including Amazon. Um, the Mom's Guide to Good Divorce is available in paperback, ebook, and um an audiobook. And then the Art of Juggling Act is in paperback and ebook. I haven't yet um gone into the studio to do audiobook, but I am planning to do so. So, and um and both um, and you can also reach out to me. Um, I have two websites. One is um gooddivorce.guide, and then the other is um the jugglingact.com. So uh either and I all my contact information is there, and you can reach out if you have any questions or want any more background on the books.
Karen Covy: 39:19
Wow, Sarah, thank you so much for coming here and sharing all of your wisdom. It's so, it's such an important topic, and it's something that every parent intends to do, they want to do, but like to your point, um, they don't know how to do, and it's not something that we're taught in school or even in our own families for the most part. So thank you so much for coming and sharing. I really appreciate it.
Sarah Armstrong:
So thank you for having me, Karen. I Really enjoyed our discussion.
Karen Covy:
And for those of you who are out there listening, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you want to hear more episodes just like it, do me a big favor like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.
