Episode Description
Amy Lin was married for 20 months. Her divorce took 3 years. Most of that time was spent wrangling through the arcane, time-consuming, and inefficient "discovery process" in the legal system.
After her divorce was over, Amy decided to create a software platform to make the financial discovery process more efficient and affordable so that no one had to suffer through what she suffered through in her divorce. That's why she created Anew.
Anew simplifies and streamlines financial discovery in divorce cases. It provides couples with an overview of their net worth and contains income/expense reports, balance sheets, and tools to help couples calculate home equity splits. All of this is designed to make the divorce process less complicated, less painful, and more transparent.
If your divorce seems to be stalled out in the legal discovery process, this podcast episode is for you.
Show Notes
About Amy
Amy is the Founder and CEO of Anew, a tech platform making family law more efficient and affordable for everyday Americans. Anew simplifies the complex legal process into a guided experience paired with financial analysis, form filing services and on-demand consultations with vetted experts. Before founding Anew, Amy spent 13 years building teams and products from 0 to 1 in financial services and healthcare. She also went through a 3-year divorce, which put her through the firsthand experience of the pain points in family law.
Connect with Amy
You can connect with Amy on Facebook at Divorce Finance. To learn more about Anew, visit Amy’s website Anew and for a limited time click on Anew's Beta Product to gain free access.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Amy
- Amy Lin went through a 3-year divorce after a 20-month marriage. She initially had a lawyer but after a year decided to represent herself to save on legal fees.
- Amy found managing the financial discovery tedious and time-consuming, doing all the math herself. This inspired her to create Anew, a tech platform to simplify the process.
- Amy realized the value technology could provide in simplifying the complex legal divorce process. She founded the tech platform Anew to make family law more efficient and affordable.
- Anew's core product is financial discovery - linking accounts to provide net worth, income/expenses, and tools like home equity calculators. The goal is to make the process more efficient and affordable.
- Anew believes "doing the math right wins the case" - getting the facts and finances straight provides leverage in negotiation.
- The software can benefit both DIY divorces and those using lawyers by streamlining financial information. Users control how much support they need.
- Amy advises not being afraid to talk about money in divorce cases, and to fight fair for yourself and your family's future. Don't rush into settlements you'll regret.
- Anew aims to make family law more efficient and affordable for everyday Americans. Amy wants to help people going through divorce save time and money.
- The beta product focuses on financials first. Custody and support calculators are upcoming features. Forms interface is a future step. For a limited time you can gain free access to Anew’s Beta Product.
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Transcript
Amy Lin on Charting a New Path Through Divorce with Anew
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
financial planning, control, legal fees
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Amy Lin
Karen Covy Host00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covey, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show
With me. Today I am so excited to have Amy Lin, and Amy is the founder and CEO of Anew, a tech platform making family law more efficient and affordable for everyday Americans. Anew simplifies the complex legal process into a guided experience paired with financial analysis, form-filling services and on-demand consultations with vetted experts. Before founding Anew, Amy spent 13 years building teams and products from zero to one in financial services and healthcare. She also went through a three-year divorce herself, which put her through the first-hand experience of the pain points in family law, so she knows of what she speaks. We'll just put it that way Amy, welcome to the show.
Amy Lin Guest01:29
Thank you so much, Karen. I'm so excited to be here.
Karen Covy Host01:33
I'm excited to have you, and anything new and innovative in the legal system is always fascinating to me, and I know that's what you're trying to do. But before we dive into that, I'd like to talk a little bit about your story. How did you go from getting a divorce to creating a tech platform about divorce?
Amy Lin Guest01:53
Yeah, so my divorce is a little bit of cliché. It's a pandemic divorce. My ex told me that he wanted to leave the marriage in 2021 and initially it was really hard for me, but ultimately I respected his decision. I did not expect the divorce to drag on for three years, especially. Our marriage only lasted for 20 months, so it was a very confusing process as well. At different points I was like how did this drag on so long? And initially I had an attorney, and one year into the case we just hadn't really gotten the momentum of the case going. There's no significant progress and we hadn't even started the settlement talks yet. So that was the time I was like all right, the legal fees are accumulating very quickly. Maybe I should give pro se a try.
02:52
So I started representing myself in the case and, as with any legal case, facts are very important and in a matrimonial case, the facts are the finances of the household. What I learned is in front of the judge, it doesn't matter who cheated on whom or who's a narcissist in the relationship. Usually, it comes down to how are you going to divide up the money? So I really stuck with that principle and did a lot of math. I calculated all of the marital assets and debts. I tracked all the income and expenses over the course of the marriage. I traced all of the transfers in different accounts. I also did the research and did the calculations of the home equity split in different kinds of scenarios.
03:42
So that certainly helped making me feel comfortable presenting the case and presenting the facts in court. But it was a very manual and labor intensive process. I spent so many nights and weekends just reviewing the different pages of the financial statements, reviewing different lines, different transactions, and did all the math by myself. So, having worked in tech, I was like it would be so wonderful if we have an application that can remove some of the most cumbersome tasks, like what I'm doing right now, and then just do the math and give you instant insights into the finances of the household. That would be great. So that was the origin of anew.
Karen Covy Host04:28
Okay, I'd like to wind you back a little bit, because that's quite a story, but I just want to make sure I heard you right your marriage was 20 months long, but your divorce was three years, meaning 36 months long.
Amy Lin Guest04:42
Yes, there was a lot of waiting also in between the court hearings, but I think mostly it's because there was a lot of frivolous motions and requests.
Karen Covy Host04:57
And that's important for people to hear, because there you were with a short marriage. Theoretically, this could have been wrapped up in a couple of months, and it doesn't always happen that way. If you have someone who is filing a lot of motions, who is obstructing discovery, who is not willing to settle quickly, who is not willing to settle quickly, who is not willing, you know, it takes as long as it takes, right? So it doesn't matter who you are or what you do. You could only control your side of the street, so to speak. Right, your spouse is on the other side.
Amy Lin Guest05:33
Exactly exactly and ultimately you have to believe you have some kind of control over the direction of where the case is going, because it's so easy to feel like powerless in the process. But sometimes you have to think all right, I can't control what the other side is doing, but I can control how I'm handling it, how I'm reacting to different motions and different requests and how am I going to drive the process to a resolution. So in the beginning I was really frustrated, but as we kind of go into the case, I was like you know what I try to think of this as an exercise of my negotiation skills or like my project management skills or financial planning skills, etc. Etc. So try to look on the bright side and try to find kind of an angle that can give you the sense of being more in the driver's seat.
Karen Covy Host06:36
Yeah. So you started with a lawyer and you said you went along with the lawyer for what a year-ish yeah, and you know your legal fees started to mount, which they will do if you're going to court. There's motions, there's discovery, there's all the things right. What made you make that decision? I mean, how did you decide? Okay, this isn't working, or I want to try going pro se, I want to do it myself. What was your thought process as you approached that decision? Because a lot of people are terrified to not use a lawyer, right? They think that that would be a big mistake. Other people jump in to not using a lawyer without really thinking through the consequences, and then that's a mistake. So I'm just curious about what your thought process was at the time and how you made the decision.
Amy Lin Guest07:30
Yeah, so a year into the case, we had two court hearings and the two court hearings were about the procedure of financial discovery and I just felt like every time we spoke as a group you know both sides we were not getting to the point. It was like very frustrating to me and I was like I really want to help and, being a solution-oriented person, I was like I think I have some ideas in terms of driving the conversations toward the court issues instead of going around the discovery scope, because the two court hearings are actually about. First we're going to broad, now we want to narrow. So which way is it? Is it broad or narrow? I just feel like we spend a lot of efforts on things that are not actually super related to the resolution, like what's exactly, you know, the top concern from the other side and what exactly are we not seeing eye to eye in terms of numbers? So I really wanted to drive the conversations to that way. And you know, being represented by an attorney, you cannot speak in court because you're being represented. So I talked with my attorney. I was like I just wanted to give it a try to see if we can kind of make the conversations flow in a different way and he was actually very encouraging. He was like, yeah, go for it.
08:58
And initially I asked my attorney to stay on as a consulting attorney. But because for that one year we I already asked a lot of questions. I also did a lot of homework myself. I read a lot of articles. I kind of started to get a better sense of the framework that's needed, you know, in a court setting. So I actually ended up doing a lot of things just by myself, without the need to, you know, consult with my old attorney. But I would say you know really the key reasons to go into pro-says. I wanted to have a solution and I just felt like we're not really getting to that. And then number two is just the fees are just getting really high and I think, whether you want to be a pro-say or not, ultimately it's also about your ability or your willingness to pay for the attorney fees.
Karen Covy Host09:52
Yeah, 100%. And I'm curious though, before we go deeper into this did your husband have an attorney?
Amy Lin Guest10:01
Yeah, he had, and he actually in the middle of it he changed his attorneys so he went from a solo attorney to an attorney team. So that was also the trigger point. I was like this is getting out of hand, I'm not going to continue to fight with an attorney team. It's not that complicated, it's a short marriage and I think I got the numbers straight. So that's also kind of a big push in terms of going into pro se.
Karen Covy Host10:34
So when you became pro se, did your husband then also become pro se or did he keep his team? He kept his team, so you were going up against an attorney team.
Amy Lin Guest10:43
Yes, and it was not easy. I think the challenge of being a pro se is, in a way you're kind of challenging the system Because in court a lot of the informations are kind of gatecapped by the attorneys and they don't like someone who's kind of outside from the system. I think it's very natural because anytime someone has been in a system or in a process for a very long time it's always been that way and all of a sudden someone's changing that, it's natural for someone to have kind of a resistance against that. So I think initially I did get a lot of side eyes and people who dismissed me, even though sometimes I'm saying things right and factual. But I didn't take it personally and I think for listeners who are interested in taking kind of a pro se approach, be prepared for that. But also don't be too afraid of the reactions that you will get.
11:46
Ultimately everyone's going to get used to that. As long as you stick with the facts, you're OK. If there are something that you don't fully understand in court, it's totally OK to slow down and ask the judge or the court to explain certain terms or certain procedures or if you feel like, oh, you have to consult an attorney before coming back to the discussion, do it Like the court will grant the request. Actually, they want everyone to feel like they are making conscious decisions in court, and don't ever let anyone pressure you into thinking I have to make a decision right now, or never feel like you're in a rush, because these are all important decisions. Ultimately, it's you who are living the consequences of the case. Yeah 100%.
Karen Covy Host12:44
And you've mentioned a couple of times now the word discovery, and for anyone who's listening, who doesn't understand what that means, because in the legal context, discovery has a very specific meaning and it means the process of discovering information, either financial information, or information about the related to the children, if you have children, or information related to the issues in the divorce, and so that's a place where a lot of cases go to language for years and years and years and years, because there's a lot of abuses of the discovery process, or places where it can get pushed aside. Continued things drag on, as you found out, and that's what the solution of your process, your software program, is designed to address. So can you tell me a little bit more about that? What is your software and what does it do?
Amy Lin Guest13:46
Yeah, I would say the core product of Anew is the financial discovery process. So we make the process a lot easier for our users and by just linking your financial accounts directly or uploading your financial documents, we can give you an overview of your net worth, your SOE versus joint accounts, a very rough estimate of separate and marital assets, slash liabilities, and then we also give you an income and expense report for all of the transactions in the last 24 months. And then we also have a calculator for home equity split and you can run numbers in different scenarios. What the numbers would be if you are selling the house and buying your spouse out in terms of equity? What the numbers would be if you're staying in the house but refinancing with the current interest rate? What's the monthly expenses going to be like post-debtors? Or there are also people who are considering nesting options, so basically kind of having the kids staying in the house but also have separate places for the parents. So what would that look like? So we give you a set of planning tools and also discovery tools to make the process a lot more easier and clear. So you have that overview of the finances of the household. You can also do budget planning throughout tools so you get a better sense of what to expect after the divorce. So that also kind of takes get taken into consideration of your decision.
15:33
I think I've been paying a lot of attention to Karen's work. I love what you're saying about decision-making science. I really do believe a lot of the decisions. Half of it really is about running the data and then think about whether the data makes sense. The other half of it is emotionally are you going to be okay with this set of numbers, this set of expenses, this part of the settlement? So we hope with a new we can make that decision-making process a little bit easier and more clear. So you have a roadmap in terms of how to approach your case.
Karen Covy Host16:14
Makes total sense. Let me ask you a little bit of a devil's advocate question, because a lot of what this software is doing excuse me, it seems like it's the same thing that a CDFA would do, In other words, a certified divorce financial analyst. Why use the software and not a financial planner?
Amy Lin Guest16:37
You can use both or you can choose either one, right? So it's essentially kind of doing the same work. But a CDFA is also expensive, I think, for on average, a case with a CDFA would cost about $5,000. And some CDFAs also charged by hours, so it's like $300 per hour, but with the new it's a fraction of that cost. So right now we're offering free access so you can really play around with the numbers and play around with the settlement planning and figure out what you want to do next. So we really want to make the process a lot more affordable, especially for people or just everyday Americans. So we want to help you save money and also save time in the process.
Karen Covy Host17:27
So you say on your website doing the math right wins the case. What does that mean?
Amy Lin Guest17:38
Doing the math right is basically getting the facts of the case straight. So when you get the facts down, you pretty much figure out the framework of the case and you have a leverage in the negotiation process. And finishing the calculation of the key assets, liabilities and kind of expenses during the marriage and after, spousal maintenance and child support, those are the key questions that the court paid attention to the most. That's basically what you're going to talk about in front of the judge and that's 90% of the casework and the rest is basically filling out forms to get your divorce decree. So we really believe for a lot of the cases, especially regards to settlements or kind of asset distribution, it's really about doing the math right.
18:39
There are also issues like child custody, but I think a lot of the courts go for 50-50. So if you're not planning for 50-50 child custody, you have to make a case and that's completely kind of different approach. Maybe, karen, you can talk more about it. But we do believe for matrimonial cases, a lot of it is really kind of at the core about finances.
Karen Covy Host19:02
Well, yeah, I mean divorce. Fundamentally, if you really simplify it and boil it down to its most basic proposition, it's only about there's only two issues money and kids. And then, within kids, there's a bunch of issues regarding children, there's a bunch of issues regarding money, but it's all going to pretty much be one or the other, unless you've got some crazy procedural issue that has to do with jurisdiction or the court process or something like that. But for most people, it's those two issues. But I'm curious, because you're talking about making the case affordable and the process Is your product. Is the a new program simply for process, or is there benefit and value to people, even to those who have lawyers, to use this kind of software program?
Amy Lin Guest19:53
It's really for everybody. If you have an attorney, you can use the Anew software as kind of like a baseline numbers to share with your attorneys, and it would speed up your attorney's work as well and save you some legal fees. If you're just in the beginning of the process and you're starting with our platform and you can first have your financial discovery done throughout a platform, then you have two options. One is you can try to negotiate and do the settlement talks with your spouse and then do the DIY. If you guys do come to an agreement, we would also offer form filing services, so finishing the divorce packet for you and then getting to the point of you getting your divorce decree.
20:41
And the second option is, if you feel like it's not gonna be amicable and you feel like this is going to be a little bit more complicated, you can also hire an attorney or a mediator through our platform as well to focus on specific issues or to kind of represent you fully in court. So it's completely up to the users in terms of how they want to manage their case. I think the biggest benefit of our platform is you really get to control how much money you spent and if you go with an attorney on our platform, you'll always know the pricing beforehand so you'll always know how much you're paying for before we charge you on anything. So we really try to make sure that people are controlling the cost of their case and everything's working efficiently and driving toward the resolution of the case.
Karen Covy Host21:46
You know, I'm curious because and maybe this isn't a fair question because I know you're early in the process you're still in beta, right, so you? This is. This is the beginning of a movement, not necessarily the end. But Divorce law varies state to state. The forms vary state to state, the providers vary state to state. So, right now, if somebody is interested in using a new like which states are you in? Which states aren't you in? What do you? What's going on at this point in time?
Amy Lin Guest22:17
Yeah, so currently our beta product is just the financial discovery part of the, the, the. The product so for net worth and income and expenses is state agnostic right, because it's not really kind of controlled by state jurisdiction. But for spousal maintenance and child support that's not part of the beta yet because you know that's very state specific and that's going to be the next phase of our product.
Karen Covy Host22:46
So somebody was interested in using the product right now just to figure out what's my budget going to be. What is it now? What's it going to be post divorce? What does an asset split look? If I do it this way, this way or this way? That's something that your software could handle even right now.
Amy Lin Guest23:03
Correct, correct. Or for a lot of families the primary residence is their largest asset. So like you want to figure out you know what the equity is, how much. You know you want to buy your spouse out or how does that play into the overall settlement planning? You know you can also trade off. You know certain parts of the marital assets and home equity. Figure out what is the best way to do to pay for the settlements. So this is kind of like a planning tool for you know kind of the major aspects of the household finances. But for spousal maintenance and child custody it's not available yet but a lot of users they can go to the local courts website. Usually they have the formula there. So once you, once you go through the new platform, you'll see kind of the breakdown of all of the income and expenses. So you can use those data and put it into the court formula and then calculate yourself is actually a lot easier than most people think.
Karen Covy Host24:07
So right now, does your software platform interface with any of the court forms, or that's your next step, that's one of the future steps?
Amy Lin Guest24:16
That's also the future steps, because we are strong believers that doing the math right wins the case. So we really kind of prioritize the financial discovery part of it.
Karen Covy Host24:28
That makes a lot of sense in terms of any kind of financial issues you have. You can't discuss the issue or try to settle a case and unless you know your numbers right, but what would you say to somebody who says I'm bad with math, I hate math, I don't like numbers, I don't understand numbers, I can't use this. You know this, your, your platform isn't for me. What would you say to that person?
Amy Lin Guest24:55
It may not be as hard as you think if you kind of break down the tasks and, you know, go one step at a time. And that's also kind of the key differentiator of our platform. We really break down the process into manageable step by step guidance. So you'll see, on our platform we have the asset section, we have the liability sections and then within each section we break that down to savings, checking, so you can really do everything at your own pace. Maybe you just do two sections for two hours today and then you take a break for a day and then you come back. So it's entirely up to you.
25:39
Again, like our philosophy is giving our users full control of the process.
25:44
If you just feel like I just don't want to do it myself, but then you just have to think, would you rather pay, you know, 5000 or even all the way up to 20k for legal fees and financial planning fees, or would you like to kind of slow down a little bit and then getting a better sense of your own finances yourself? Because ultimately it's you who are living your life and I think no one cares more about our case than ourselves. Professionals, especially great professionals. They have a lot of cases going on at the same time. So you are the person who's going to give your case 200% attention. So I would say, you know, try to process a lot of the feelings but at the same time try to do a little bit every day to manage the process yourself. Ultimately, like you, you will feel the reward. Maybe it's like two years down the line you feel like, oh, finally, like I'm out of that face. And now, looking back, I'm glad I figured out the math, because now I'm living a good quality life.
Karen Covy Host26:55
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. And I just want to you know, to reinforce what you said. I think it's definitely, you know, good wisdom for people to understand that taking control of their own finances it's not just going to serve them in the divorce, but it's a skill. It's like any other skill that you want to acquire. It's like riding a bicycle you know how to ride, you always know how to ride. So once you know how to do the math in your divorce, that skill carries forward with you throughout the rest of your life, right? So it's something that, yeah, you might not want to acquire that skill, but it's a good thing to do and it's always going to serve you.
27:41
Well, and just for the people out there who are listening, when we say math, we're not talking differential calculus. Okay, this is adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing. That's pretty much it, right? We're talking grade school math. So I know a lot of people women especially get scared off by thinking, oh, math, I can't, I can't do math. It's not that kind of math, it's really. I mean, if lawyers can do it, and we're better with words than with numbers typically. Honestly, I think that a program like yours I can totally see the value in it to help everybody figure this stuff out.
Amy Lin Guest28:23
Yeah, exactly, and if there's a specific issue that you want like a second opinion, our platform also has a network of vetted CDFA the financial planners and divorce financial analysts that can really help you focus on that specific issues and answer all of your questions so you can have that confidence and reassurance as well. But I think it's always good to be prepared yourself. Actually, one of the reasons I reached out to Karen was I saw one of her videos on YouTube about being prepared for the case. That is so important. It sounds so simple, but that really is the number one principle for handling your case and managing this huge life event. You have to be prepared. It's good for yourself and it's good for your kids. If you have children, you set a great example for them to handle the adversities in life.
Karen Covy Host29:22
Yeah, I have to agree with you 100%. It makes so much sense. But I'd like to, just before we go, talk a little bit about money fights and what are some common misconceptions that divorcing people have about money fights.
Amy Lin Guest29:41
Yeah. So I feel like I personally have felt that kind of judgment and that kind of you know eyes when I tell people, yeah, I'm entering the third year of my divorce. I think generally people have the misconception that if your divorce is about, you know, the money fight is very nasty. And I think the judgment on women is especially hard and for women it's kind of like a situation where it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you're the last money spouse and you're, you know, kind of asking for your fair share of the marital settlement, it's easy to feel like you're afraid of people labeling you as greedy or gold digger. And if you're a successful career woman and you're the money spouse and you're fighting for your fair share of the settlement, people will also like label you as demanding, aggressive, cheap, nasty, so you can't do it right. You really just can't do it right. And especially it's such a hard life situation and if you layer that with the outsider's judgment it's gonna you're gonna be too hard on yourself.
30:59
So my advice for a lot of people is it's okay to talk about money in a divorce, because that's the essence of divorce, like we're supposed to talk about money.
31:11
So I really hope that they fight fair for themselves. Especially, you know, if you're going to be the one who's kind of raising your children you have the majority of the custody you're gonna have, you know the decision making kind of rights for a lot of your children's choices then it's really important for you to manage the process and fight for yourself and fight for your family. I think a lot of people are afraid of money fight because they feel like all right, this is too much, I just want to end the suffering. So it's easy for people to feel like I just don't wanna handle the suffering anymore, I'm just gonna say yes to any kind of settlement. So be very, very careful about that. Is this really the kind of settlement that you can live with five years down the line? I think really, looking at the long term and looking at what you are trying to achieve with your own life and your family, that's the most important thing.
Karen Covy Host32:19
I couldn't agree more again. I think these are really important words of wisdom for anyone who's going through a divorce, whether they choose to use an attorney, whether they choose to try to go pro se. No matter what, knowing your numbers, knowing the math, figuring out what matters to you and what you, like you said, are willing to live with five years down the line is definitely important. So, Amy, this has been such an interesting conversation. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you, where they can learn more about anew and where they can jump onto this beta program for Anew? If they're interested in that, yeah, absolutely so.
Amy Lin Guest33:03
To sign up for the beta product, you can go to loveanew.co/accessdivorce and that's our sign up page. We're opening the access to a small group of users to test out the beta product and with the beta product you're going to have a summary of your net worth, the income and expense report, budget planning tools, as well as home equity calculations as well.
Karen Covy Host33:33
Awesome and so, just for anyone who's listening, all of those places are going to be linked up in the show notes so that you can just click on them and easily access them. Amy, I am so grateful to you for being a guest on the podcast. I'm excited to seeing where Love Anew goes, or Anew, I'm not sure if it's if you add the love, or I'm not going to love anew, so that's fine, okay.
Amy Lin Guest33:59
I get it Loveanew.co.
Karen Covy Host34:01
Yeah, so that's beautiful. So, for everyone listening, go to loveanew.co, check out the new software program, which, depending on when you're listening to this, may still be free. So why not, right? And Amy, thank you again. And for those of you who are out there watching or listening, if you enjoyed this conversation, if you want to hear and see more of this, please do me a big favor like subscribe. It makes all the difference in the world and I look forward to seeing you all again next time.
