Episode Description - How to Know if Your Divorce Attorney IS the Problem
What if the biggest obstacle in your divorce isn't your spouse, but the system itself? Jonathan Merel, a progressive Chicago family law and divorce attorney with over 20 years of experience, reveals the hidden dynamics that can turn even amicable divorces into drawn-out nightmares. From lawyers who overpromise to judges who won't decide, he explains why some divorces cost fortunes while others resolve efficiently.
In this podcast episode, we dive deeply into high-conflict divorces, exploring what happens when only one spouse is reasonable or when opposing counsel ramps up the conflict for profit. Jonathan also shares practical strategies for dealing with difficult spouses and identifying problematic lawyers. [Hint: If your lawyer isn't returning calls within 24 hours, that's a red flag.]
Jonathan’s law firm has also pioneered an unconventional approach to family law. It’s the only Chicago law firm that has a divorce coach on staff to bridge the gap between legal expertise and emotional support, and in this episode you’ll discover what a difference that makes.
Finally, Jonathan explains divorce trial realities that would shock most people, from cases getting trial dates scattered over an entire year, to judges taking months to issue rulings, and costs mounting relentlessly. We also talk about the benefits of mediation and the way COVID has permanently shifted the landscape in divorce.
If you are even considering going to trial in your divorce (or if you have no choice), this podcast episode is one you can’t afford to miss.
Show Notes
About Jonathan
Jonathan Merel is an experienced attorney who advocates for his clients in all divorce and family law proceedings, including settlement negotiations and trials. Jonathan founded Merel Family Law in early 2009 after working for many years at another family law firm in Chicago. Through his hard work and unwavering dedication to his clients, Jonathan has quickly grown the firm to become one of the premier divorce and family law firms in the Chicagoland area.
Connect with Jonathan
You can connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn at Jonathan Merel. You can follow Jonathan on Instagram at Merel Family Law and listen to his podcast All Things Divorce Podcast. To learn more about working with Jonathan, visit his website at Merel Family Law.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Jonathan
- Jonathan Merel chose family law to make a real human impact, valuing client interaction over transactional legal work.
- The firm is unique in employing an in-house divorce coach to support clients’ emotional needs and improve attorney–client communication.
- Divorce coaching benefits both clients and lawyers, especially in high-conflict and domestic violence cases.
- One irrational person can hijack an entire divorce. High-conflict divorces don’t require two difficult people—just one emotionally volatile or revenge-driven spouse can force chaos on everyone.
- Jonathan emphasizes resolving cases outside of court whenever possible to reduce cost, stress, and time.
- About 90% of divorce lawyers aim to settle ethically, while a small minority fuel conflict with unrealistic promises. A small percentage of attorneys escalate cases by overpromising outcomes they know won’t happen, locking clients into expensive, prolonged battles.
- Real divorce trials happen in scattered chunks over months (or years), making them inefficient, emotionally draining, and often outdated by the time a ruling is issued.
- Mediation and negotiated settlements, especially with experienced mediators or former judges, often lead to faster, better outcomes than litigation.
- Responsiveness is the biggest client trust issue in divorce law. More than legal strategy, clients judge their lawyer by whether they feel acknowledged during fear, urgency, and crisis.
Do you like what you've heard?
Share the love so more people can benefit from this episode too!
Transcript
How to Know if Your Divorce Attorney IS the Problem
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
conflict, accountability, strategy, stability
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Jonathan Merel
Karen Covy: 0:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorced lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Jonathan Merel. And Jonathan is an experienced attorney who advocates for his clients in all divorce and family law proceedings, including settlement negotiations and trial. Jonathan founded Merel Family Law in early 2009 after working for many years at another family law firm in Chicago. Through his hard work and unwavering dedication to his clients, Jonathan has quickly grown the firm to become one of the premier divorce and family law firms in the Chicago land area. Jonathan, welcome to the show.
Jonathan Merel: 1:16
Thanks for having me, Karen. I'm happy to be here. I appreciate the kind words and the great introduction.
Karen Covy: 1:21
Thank you. And the reason I was so excited in having you as a guest is because you do things differently. And you and I have both been around the block a time or a thousand. And um I love the approach that you take. But before we get into that, if it's okay, I'd like to start with a little bit of your backstory. Why family law?
Jonathan Merel: 1:46
I still ask myself that question to this day, 20 some years later. But honestly, you know, I went into law school not really knowing what type of law I wanted to practice and kind of fell into a law clerking job my second-year law school. And it really just kind of clicked for me. I knew I couldn't be, I really didn't have the bandwidth for like just boring transactional stuff. I knew I wanted to do something where I could really help people and change people's lives and be that you know human interaction between attorney and client. I knew I needed that. Um, so I started law clerking at a family law firm, my second year of law school. Decided, wow, I think I really like this. And um just didn't look back at this point. Even if I wanted to do something else, it's too late. So um here I am 20 some years later, and um, you know, I'm happy I chose this path. So for your entire legal career, you've been doing family law, right? Yeah, strictly, strictly family law since 2000, 2000, I think, technically. So wow. It's been a while. It makes me feel very old.
Karen Covy: 2:55
Don't even start with me.
Jonathan Merel: 2:57
We're not going down that path. Now we're done.
Karen Covy: 2:59
But what I what drew me to you and to want to have you as a guest is Merel Family Law does things differently in a lot of ways. Can you talk to us about how you do things differently and why?
Jonathan Merel: 3:16
Sure. Yeah, I mean, we try I like to look at myself as someone that's progressive in in the field of family law and the practice of law in general. Um, you know, when I came out of law school, you know, that was a long time ago, but things were done very differently back then. And, you know, people it was just that taboo idea of divorce, and you go and you meet the grumpy old man in a suit that's your divorce lawyer, and it's just this horrible process. And again, it's a difficult process, but there wasn't a lot of focus on the emotions of the client, the transition and the difficult time that the client themselves was going through. So, you know, as I moved on in my career, I really thought about, you know, emphasizing the journey for the client, not just obviously providing the legal expertise and guidance from a legal perspective, but also, you know, making sure we think about the emotional impact this has on the husband, the wife, the children, the family as a whole. So I always wanted to kind of provide an experience for the client that wasn't just the legal part of it, but also made it clear to our clients that we understand what they're going through emotionally, and that, you know, although this is a difficult process and we're lawyers, we're not necessarily trained to be therapists, but we often have to be. Um, so I really wanted to stress that, which ultimately led to led me to hiring a divorce coach, which we'll get to, I'm sure later, but really kind of emphasizing the experience from an emotional standpoint for the clients and making sure we can provide services, services to them that address their legal needs, but also their emotional needs.
Karen Covy: 4:59
Yeah, I love that, and it's so unique. I mean, I don't know. Maybe, maybe you know some other law firm in Chicago that has a divorce coach on staff. I don't.
Jonathan Merel: 5:09
No, I don't know any law firm anywhere in the country that does, at least that I know of. Um, but bringing a divorce coach on was the perfect, we thought the perfect like liaison in between attorney and client. And not only does it help the client, but it also helps the lawyers because you know, divorce coaches are trained to address that emotional aspect while also having intellect and experience on the legal part of it. And again, they're kind of that perfect liaison between attorney and client. And the clients obviously like talking to our divorce coach who has more experience in dealing with that emotional aspect and you know, obviously communicating the needs and wants of our clients to us, the attorneys. So, it really provides that that missing piece of the team that we were looking for, and it provides a much better client experience.
Karen Covy: 6:00
I love that. Um, obviously, from where I sit, divorce coaches are very necessary. And I love that you pointed out that it helps both the client and the lawyers, um, because like you said, there's a disconnect. Lawyers aren't trained to deal with emotions. Some people do it better than others. Um but having the coach to fill that gap and to interpret what the lawyer is doing for the client is so critical because for us, it's like we roll out of bed in the morning, we do this stuff all the time. We lawyers don't even realize, like when they're talking to clients, how much the clients have no idea what they're talking about. Right?
Jonathan Merel: 6:44
So we do lose sight of that fact for sure.
Karen Covy: 6:48
So does your divorce coach work? I know that the person that you've got as a divorce coach is works a lot with high conflict, and you also work a lot with high conflict clients. Yes, but does your divorce coach work with every client or just certain clients, or how do you handle that?
Jonathan Merel: 7:05
So we don't we don't force the divorce coach on any of our clients. It's not something that they have to do. We obviously discuss it at intakes and say that this is a service the firm provides. Um, and naturally they'll kind of say, well, you know, well, I'm interested. And you know, there'll be an initial discussion with our divorce coach, Christina Lindsay. And it's really a wide range of clients. You know, obviously you have high conflict clients, high conflict cases who, you know, probably need them the most. We also have obviously cases where there's domestic violence involved, and our divorce coach has 10 years of experience dealing with domestic violence and the impact it has on victims and families. So that's kind of another twist to all this, where we provide help for individuals who come into our office, the victims of abuse, or are, you know, finally gain the strength to get out of an abusive marriage and a relationship. So, um, and then there's obviously people who are just struggling with the natural fallout from a divorce, you know, this the dividing of a family, not seeing their children as much, really just major changes in what the status quo for the family was historically. That's tough to deal with no matter what the situation is, whether it's high conflict or not, it's really just kind of helping with the transition into this new chapter of people's lives, which you know is very difficult to stomach, especially when you're just talking to a lawyer who's, you know, all business, and you know, some lawyers aren't really able to relate on that level. And probably for good reason, because you know, divorce lawyers don't need to be or want to be emotionally connected to cases because that could blur our judgment. So to have Christina as our divorce coach be the separate piece and sounding board for the clients and someone they could talk to, um, it just really helps the experience and helps them um get into the next part of their lives.
Karen Covy: 8:59
That makes so much sense. Um, and you know, talking about high conflict people, like we said, you work with a lot of high conflict divorces. Let's start at the beginning. What do you consider to be a high conflict divorce? What makes a high conflict divorce?
Jonathan Merel: 9:18
Sure. Well, high conflict divorce unfortunately only requires one person to be what I would consider high conflict. You know, you always, you know, you can have the most rational person ever, you know, heading to a divorce, but if their spouse is not rational and is just seeking revenge or their emotions can't be controlled, that unfortunately can lead to a high conflict divorce. Um, so obviously there's like emotional pieces of it that can create high conflict, and then there's obviously the issues themselves. I mean, if you have complex financial issues or complex custody issues, you know, issues that cause a lot of emotion and you know cause people to get upset or angry, um, those can be high conflict cases too. So we deal with lots of them. And obviously, our goal at the outset of any case is to try to diffuse the tension and to try to let cooler heads prevail. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. What I say to all my clients, you know, we can be the most rational people on earth and be doing this the right way. But if the other side, whether it be the lawyer or the other party, is not of the same mindset and are just so emotionally charged or just so angry and refuse, you know, to do anything amicably, then we have to deal with that.
Karen Covy: 10:36
Well, and how do you deal with it? Because I I coach a lot of people who are in that exact situation where they don't necessarily want to fight, but their spouse is constantly bringing them back to court, constantly doing like crazy things, and they have to respond. So, how can you help? And what would you say to those people?
Jonathan Merel: 10:58
Well, I first going in, you have to be honest with them. And again, it's litigation. So if you're in a litigation setting and someone's filing ridiculous motions, or you know, going to court and making arguments over things that are not true, or just, you know, we have to deal with them. Obviously, the first line of defense and all that is hopefully opening a line of communication with the other party's attorney and obviously relying on them to kind of bring the temperature down to make their clients' expectations more realistic and see if there's a path forward outside of court. That of course isn't always the problem, and sometimes the lawyers themselves are the problems in creating the conflict when it didn't have to be. So, I mean, just by knowing the players in this business, a lot of times once you hear the opposing counsel's name, unfortunately, you know what you're kind of in for. And unfortunately, our clients are kind of left dealing with the fallout of their spouse picking an attorney that really doesn't choose resolution outside of court first and you know seeks litigation first before that, which is really doing a disservice to their clients. I mean, as attorneys in this business, we owe our clients, all of them, um, the idea of trying to resolve things amicably outside of court. It's less stress, it's less time, it's less money. So I think any rational attorney in this business who does things the right way should think that is the first option. Unfortunately, there are people in this business that don't think that way.
Karen Covy: 12:31
Yeah, and I I've talked to a lot of clients who have become jaded and cynical because they say, you know, all divorce lawyers, they're just out for money. They don't care about their clients, they don't, you know, they ramp up the conflict on purpose just to make money. And there are some people like that, um, but in my experience, they're not all like that. What have you found to be true? And like if you had to, I know this is a totally unfair question, but if you had to say, like, what percentage of divorce lawyers are actually trying to, you know, settle and do good things, and what percent are just gonna pump it for all it's worth?
Jonathan Merel: 13:13
Well, look, most of the people I've worked with over my career are great people and they do things the right way. And unfortunately, I think, you know, there are 10% of people who do what we do who don't do it the right way. And unfortunately, that leaves 10% of clients in this business that go through this with a horrible taste in their mouth. And from the get-go, they're set up for failure and they're set up for a horribly stressful process that's only going to put more strain on them and their families, which is really unfortunate. I mean, most of the people in this business do things the right way, they realize what's best for their client is to try to eliminate court and avoid court. And look, there are cases where that's not possible. I mean, there are cases where you have abuse or people lying, cheating, whatever they're doing when it comes to finances or with regard to their children or drug abusers, or you know, there's a lot of things that can create a situation where you have to go to court to put the person in their place and to get, you know, justice. But um everything else, you should be seeking resolution outside of court. Again, it's not all or nothing. You could obviously eliminate issues outside of court and then utilize the court to you know resolve the issues that you couldn't see eye to eye on. But I think most lawyers in this business like doing things the right way. But there are other just 10 people who don't care about their reputation and sell themselves, you know, as people who are gonna get their clients the best deal. And I think that's the problem. They give these unrealistic expectations to their clients from the get-go as to, you know, jade them from the beginning where they think they're gonna get here, but the reality is here, and that just sets everybody up for failure because it takes two to two people to get a case settled, it takes two lawyers to get a case settled. And when you have one person giving terrible advice, obviously that person is paying this person to take their advice and listen to it. Um, but it often takes months and a lot of money to get them to finally understand that they were wrong.
Karen Covy: 15:21
So, how do you make that evaluation? Let's say I'm the client and I go to a divorce lawyer and they pump me full of sunshine, but I don't know that. And I really believe that I can get all these things that they've promised me that you and I as lawyers know are not realistic, right? But I don't know that as the client. So if I'm the client and I'm starting trying to figure out which of the players is ramping up the conflict, how do I figure out if it's my lawyer?
Jonathan Merel: 15:50
Right. That's why I think it's always good for clients, and I even tell clients of my own, you know, potential clients, to talk to more than one attorney. You know, get referrals from people who you know have done business or work previously. Obviously, looking at online reviews is important because the lawyers out there who have bad names, I mean, they're pretty known, whether it be online or in you know, circles throughout Chicagoland, that you know, they don't do things the right way. And I always tell my clients, look, I'm never gonna be a yes man, I'm not gonna just tell you what you want to hear. And I think lawyers and you know, people going through divorce can get into trouble when you go to lawyers who just want to tell you what you want to hear, and it sounds great. I would understand that if you know someone was going through a divorce, I was going through a divorce and I went to someone and they gave me the best, you know, outlook on what's gonna happen. That sounds great. And you know, that's not helping them if you're just sugarcoating anything. So I think the best lawyers are more um concerned about their reputation and giving good advice instead of over-promising and under-delivering. And so I think from a lawyer's perspective, um, you have to tell people the reality of the situation. If you sugarcoat it, you're really not helping anybody, and you're gonna have a lot of explaining to do later on.
Karen Covy: 17:12
Yeah, I've seen that too a lot of times. I'm sure you have too, where the lawyer overpromises in the beginning and tells the client, oh, I'll get you this, I'll get you this, I'll get you that. And then now, as the time towards trial gets closer and closer, all of a sudden the lawyer completely does an about face and is like, no, you can't get that. And the poor client is trying to figure out wait a minute, what just happened to my lawyer? Right.
Jonathan Merel: 17:39
And by that time, they've probably spent a ton of time, a ton of money, have litigated over everything because the other side obviously wasn't going to agree. So, again, for any young lawyers watching this, the best thing you could do is tell your clients how it is, good or bad. I promise you, they will appreciate it in the end.
Karen Covy: 17:57
Yeah. And there's, you know, so that's how you figure out if your lawyer is being honest with you, you can always get a second opinion. And do you agree? Like even in the middle of your divorce, if things are going poorly and you can't figure out why, you can always go get a second opinion. I've encouraged people to do that.
Jonathan Merel: 18:16
Yeah. And I think a lot of people who unfortunately hire these people who underpromise, overpromise, and underdeliver, or, you know, promise them the world and it was never going to happen, they usually figure it out sooner than later. I mean, a lot of those people end up in our firm, and you know, my lawyer told me I was gonna get, you know, permanent maintenance and I was never gonna have to do anything, and I was gonna get my kids 90% of the time. It's just poor advice. And um, it's unfortunate because you know, we're not just this isn't like a business deal. This is this is people's emotions, this is people's families. And when you're toying with them, when it comes to that stuff, it could be really difficult for them to really understand when um they get the truth and it's not what their lawyer initially promised.
Karen Covy: 19:04
But okay, like how do you deal with it when you've got the other side of the situation where you're representing somebody and the person gets it, you're being honest, you're being realistic, but their spouse's lawyer is not. Like, if you're the client in that situation, what can you do? Because you see the clock ticking, you're going back to court, you're paying through the nose. How do you stop that?
Jonathan Merel: 19:28
Well, I think you stop that by getting the case in front of another person, like another, obviously, a decision maker, whether it be a mediator or a judge, you have to get that neutral party involved so they can, you know, tell the other party this is what's gonna happen. I mean, if you've only been relying on your lawyer who's not telling you the truth, and you're not gonna trust me as the uh as your spouse's lawyer, you have to get the case in front of you know someone who's gonna make determinations regarding the facts and the law, and that's usually. A mediator who's well versed in the law. There's a lot of former judges that are mediators who will obviously give an opinion and you know put the other lawyer in their place, or a judge and say, look, you know, this is what the other party is asking for. We need your honor to tell them that this isn't realistic. So you got to like find someone who has some authority behind them to tell the other side that their positions are not realistic.
Karen Covy: 20:25
Okay. So now I'm going to ask the really hard question. What happens when you do that and you have a judge who won't make a decision or keeps, you know, keeps kicking the can down the road, or, you know, doesn't care or get, you know, gives bad advice or won't take the party to task who's being unrealistic. And you and I, I mean, this isn't a lot of judges. Some people think it's the whole, every judge is terrible and they're all on the take. That is so not true. But there are some judges who are better than others. And what do you do if you have a crazy lawyer on the other side and a bad judge?
Jonathan Merel: 21:03
Well, there's nothing worse than a judge who will not make a decision. I mean, if you're in court, you're looking to the court to make a decision. If you could resolve things out of court, you wouldn't be in court in the first place. So when judges kick the can down the road, they're really doing a disservice to everybody. You know, you're going to the court for direction, you're going to the court for recommendations, you're going to the court for rulings. And if the judge isn't filling that role, you're kind of stuck until you unfortunately have to go to some sort of trial or agree to some sort of binding process outside of court, which doesn't always happen. So, you know, that's really the perfect storm when you're going to court to kind of seek answers and seek resolution. And the judge is, you know, whether they're too busy or just don't want to make a decision, just keep delaying it. That's when it's really unfortunate for the clients and attorneys, because we don't have a lot of answers. When we're going to the court as the last resort, and we can't get the answers and the speed and efficiency that we want, you know, we're left sitting out there having to bill more hours, having the case drag on longer, having there be more uncertainty until you get final resolution, which oftentimes could be at a trial, even though that's really the last resort.
Karen Covy: 22:19
And trials take years sometimes to get, correct?
Jonathan Merel: 22:23
Yeah, I mean, sometimes cases you I mean, if you're going to trial, your case has been pending at least a year. Could be more, depending on the complexity of the cases, experts, reports, and that stuff. So it happens, it's part of the process sometimes, but um, I think most lawyers this day and age are doing everything they can to try to avoid trials just because of the cost, the time, the stress, the uncertainty. What I talk to about clients all the time before we head to trial is look, understand if you go to trial, and again, sometimes you have no choice. I mean, if you're light years apart on settlement, you need a judge to make the final decision. But when you go to trial, unfortunately, the decision making is taken out of the hands of the people and their family, especially when it comes to kids. Who really wants, you know, a stranger in a dark robe telling you when you can and can't see your children or how you're going to deal with your finances? It's really unfortunate. Again, it does happen, of course, and we're on trial, you know, it happens, but um, it should be avoided at all costs if you can. And in most cases, our of you know, trial is avoidable, but sometimes it's not.
Karen Covy: 23:36
Yeah. I if you can, because you and I understand how trials work, but the vast majority of people that are listening to this have no idea. And we all have the picture from the movies, right? Which goes something like this you start your trial, you go day after day after day after day in a row, you try the end of the case, and at the end of the case, the judge goes back into their chambers and you know, 20 minutes later comes out with a decision, a written decision. How realistic is that?
Jonathan Merel: 24:07
If only that was reality, this would be a lot easier. Unfortunately, it's not. This is not the movies. And you know, judges in Cook County, Lake County, the Chicagoland counties, they're busy. So when you finally get a trial date, one, you may not be even going to trial on that day. You might get assigned to a new judge, you might have to set new trial dates after that. And even when you set trial dates, most counties just don't let you go. Once you start, you go till you finish. Judges are busy, their calendars are booked, their dockets get really busy, and you might have three days of trial in January, and then three more days of trial in March, and then they can give you a week in July, and before you know it, it's been a year before your trial's even finished. And then once your trial is done, then you're waiting for the judge to issue their ruling. That could take another three, four months or longer. So going to trial, it's a last resort, and you would think it would be efficient if it could just start and end. And again, there are, of course, different variations and um lengths of trials. Trials could be two days, they could be three weeks, they could be two months, it could be anything, but you are subjected to the system and you're a slave to the system because you're only going to get it done as soon as the judge can get to you and then get to the opinion. And then even when the opinion is issued, oftentimes there are issues with the opinion and things that were left out, and then you're fighting over the language and trying to clarify language in the judgment. And you know, it's unfortunate. Again, this is why most people like to avoid trial because this is what could lie ahead.
Karen Covy: 25:47
Yeah. So if in what strikes me and what's always fascinated me about this, is if you've got a trial that's going in many chunks, like a day here, two days there, a couple months later, you get another week, you however it goes, how is the judge supposed to keep track of everything that's going on? And what if things change? Right? Because you and I both know that things can change a lot from the day you file till the day you go to trial, or the day the trial is set, or and the day that the decision is rendered. So what happens in those cases? What do people do?
Jonathan Merel: 26:28
Yeah, it's tough. I mean, especially again when you're dealing with trials that have multiple witnesses and um, you know, complex financial issues and you know, numbers here and there, or you know, testimony from experts, psychological experts when you're talking about, you know, a custody evaluation. There are a million things going around. And obviously, again, there's different levels of complexity. Judges are required to kind of take notes. Hopefully, you have a trial where there's a court reporter with a record. Again, all these things cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. But as you said, yeah, situations can change mid-trial. You know, when you have trials that can span six months and you're here and there, things come up, there are changes in people's income, and by that time, discovery is closed, so you're really not supposed to continue exchanging discovery, and you know, testimony has already begun. You got to stop witnesses, and you know, you have other witnesses that can't know what the other witnesses said, so it could get become a real mess, and there really isn't a perfect solution. Again, these are all reasons why, again, people should try to avoid trial if they can. Of course, there are situations, again, I keep saying it, where you can't and you have to do what you have to do. And you know, we're on trial often, but um, those are limited cases. Uh, most cases, and again, I think especially in recent years, it really kind of started with COVID. More people have kind of sought to resolve cases out of court. You know, when COVID hit, we didn't have the ability to run into trial, and there were no courtrooms, and everything was kind of in a state of chaos for probably six months to a year where there was no ability to do trials. So, in order to get cases moving and get them through, there was more of an emphasis put on resolving cases out of court, using good mediators, committing to settlement conferences and ways to get it done out of court. And I think that has continued um for good reason. And I think people have kind of taken a step back and realized, hey, you know, maybe trial isn't the answer and litigation isn't necessarily the answer, especially when you have great mediators that are available to us that kind of act as like a rented judge. Um, it's a lot easier for lawyers and especially, especially like, you know, accomplished good lawyers at good at good firms that know, you know, the other side knows what's going on and they have a mutual respect for each other. It just allows cases to get done much quicker and outside of court.
Karen Covy: 28:56
So what if you're in that situation, you're the you're the client and you don't want to go to trial and you look at the trial dates and they're ages away, right? So you say, okay, let's mediate. Um, how does that go? I mean, how do you, as the lawyer for that client, how do you choose a mediator? And what do you do if the other side says, no, I don't want to mediate?
Jonathan Merel: 29:23
Yeah. Well, first things first, you need both parties to agree to mediation. Judges, there have been cases where judges order parties to mediation. But again, you need people to be committed to the concept of mediation and wanting to settle the case outside of court. A judge could order people to go to mediation, but if one person doesn't want to commit to it, they're not going to be honest, they're not going to be truthful, they're not going to be forthcoming, the process is going to fail. But again, I think it is the idea of the cost of trial and people wanting to get cases done that brings mediation to the forefront. And there are some excellent mediators. I mean, um, a lot of the recent judges that retired in the domestic relations divisions throughout Chicagoland have gone into private mediation practice. So, you know, attorneys like us who have practiced in front of these judges for so many years on the bench are now in front of them in a mediation setting. And I think it being a former judge carries with them an extra some extra authority, even though they're still a mediator and nothing's necessarily binding. I think when you're hearing things from a former judge who's seen it all, who's been on the bench for decades, it carries a lot more weight. And um, the parties understand that, the lawyers understand that. And again, if everyone's committed to the process, um, you're gonna save a lot of time and a lot of money, and you're kind of renting your own judge to say, where you know, you don't have to wait months for court dates, and you know, there's not motions being filed. A lot of this stuff can be done just through email or Zoom communications with the judge where everybody's there. And um, you know, the it there's also a good way to do it that the mediators have adopted where they're meeting separately with the wife, they're what meeting separately with the husband, they're meeting separately with one side. So they kind of have it down pat like a method to do all this and set people up for success.
Karen Covy: 31:18
So you said something interesting about mediation not being binding. And I think a lot of people have misconceptions about what mediation is. Um, first of all, is it always not binding, or can you make a binding mediation?
Jonathan Merel: 31:35
Well, there are certain aspects where the court can order essentially binding arbitration in family law cases. It's not as it's not as prevalent as mediation. Um, mediation itself is not going to be binding. Um, a court can you know encourage people to mediate, and again, I think most people will start with an open mind unless a divorce is started because of some catastrophic, crazy event, whether it be abuse or you know, neglect or you know, some horrible cheating episode that people you know found out about. Most people I think can commit to the idea of mediation first, and it doesn't always work. I mean, again, you have to be committed. So if one person says, sure, I'll mediate, but their demands are ridiculous, and the other person knows they're ridiculous, and their lawyers telling they're ridiculous, that again can make it difficult to mediate if someone's just kind of checked out or doesn't care. But I think more this stage, as opposed to when I was a younger lawyer, people are open to the idea. Because look, people don't want to spend a ton of money on attorneys. I don't blame them. I don't want them to. My reputation is more important than making you know more money on a case. So I think it's refreshing to clients to hear lawyers say we should try to mediate. And I think coming in, that's what most of them want to do. So if you if you combine them wanting to do it with your lawyer advocating for it too, and then obviously working with someone that's you know a good opposing counsel, and you can pick a good mediator together, you're really getting the family off on the right start.
Karen Covy: 33:11
You know, you mentioned something, and it's interesting because uh some people are reluctant to mediate, especially going back to that high conflict situation, because if they know their spouse is just gonna say no to everything anyway, then it makes no difference. But some people in that situation, their high conflict spouse is saying, Oh, yeah, I'll mediate. And the not high conflict person is thinking, this is just a ruse. It's just going to keep running up the clock, costing more time and money. How do you know if your opponent is gonna like actually mediate in good faith?
Jonathan Merel: 33:51
Yeah, I think you can find out really quickly because when you decide to mediate, it's not like you're like, all right, let's go to the let's get on a zoom and we're mediating right from the beginning. There's a lot of preparation that goes into it. Like I said, the mediator will meet with the parties, they'll meet with the lawyers together, they'll meet with the lawyers separate with their clients. They'll require obviously an exchange of financial information before. So when you do sit down to mediate, the mediator is prepared and kind of knows the lay of the land on the case. So you can start to get an idea if someone's really not committed to it from the beginning. If you know they don't show up for a meeting or they're not forthcoming when it comes to producing documents, or you know, they don't want to talk about certain things. So I think you can get an idea then. And a good lawyer will obviously tell the other side that too. Like, hey, my client's being a little difficult here. You know, I'm not sure mediation's gonna work. Let's give it a shot. Or sometimes the mediator will make the call and be like, look, this person is being so uncooperative. I don't want to waste your time and money. There's no point to us sitting down because it doesn't seem like this person's gonna be cooperative at all.
Karen Covy: 34:58
That makes sense. So that's what we've talked about mediation, we've talked about litigation. Um, what else does your firm do? Do you in there's also collaborative divorce? You mentioned arbitration. I don't know how often that's being used in Cook County yet. In other places in the country it is. Um so it just depends on where you're at. Some places will use arbitration, but what about the other forms of divorce?
Jonathan Merel: 35:21
Yeah, I mean, I just think the other form is just general settlement discussions. Again, mediation having a mediator is great if you want to use that. But oftentimes, if you have good law firms and good lawyers and you know, rational parties on both sides, you don't necessarily need a mediator either. You know, you can conduct the exchange of discovery right off the bat, you know, outside of court, of course, and then you know, ultimately get to creating a balance sheet and deciding what the issues are. And you know, sitting down with the attorneys and the parties at a settlement conference without a mediator is often another way to get stuff resolved. So you don't necessarily need a mediator or a judge. If you have two competent lawyers and the sides know that, you know, each lawyer knows what a judge is inclined to do, or a mediator might be inclined to recommend, then you kind of can bypass all those things and just start, you know, exchanging financial information, exchanging discovery, and then start talking settlement without either of those things.
Karen Covy: 36:21
So let's talk a little bit about lawyers, because as a lawyer who is now turned into a divorce coach, I get a unique insight into my colleagues that you guys have because a lot of times lawyers don't even know that I'm involved because the client doesn't want them to know, and it's their call, right? So I hear a lot of things about a lot of lawyers that they don't know that I know necessarily. And the one thing I hear the most across the country, no matter what, is my lawyer doesn't get back to me. They don't call, I email, they don't respond to the emails, they don't respond to the calls. Now, sometimes clients have unrealistic expectations of how quickly that's gonna happen. And sometimes the lawyer is just not getting back to them. What do you how does a client know if this is normal? Are they gonna get find a different lawyer who's gonna be more responsive? Is this, or are they being too unrealistic in what they expect?
Jonathan Merel: 37:25
Nothing in this business baffles me more than lawyers who do not get back to their clients. I mean, again, literally, it is the easiest thing you could possibly do. And even if you're busy, just responding to an email and just say, hey, I'm swamped today, I'll get back to you in a couple hours, get back to you tonight, I'll get back to you in the morning. First of all, you should never go more than 24 hours without getting a response from your attorney. In fact, you shouldn't go more than a few hours and get a response that day. But I do not understand. I can't tell you how many people have come to my office and be like, I sent my client, I sent my lawyer an email a week ago. I still haven't heard from them. I've left him a message, I got no response, I texted them, or the I just I can't fathom how lawyers just leave their clients hanging like that. There's nothing that we stress more, obviously, in my firm and with the lawyers in my office than making sure we're responsive to clients, making sure clients feel comfortable that they have a consistent and constant line of communication with us. And look, I mean, am I expecting my lawyers to respond to an email at midnight and you know take time away from their lives outside of work? No, but again, you need to respond to clients, especially in this business. I mean, it's not a nine to five job. I stress that to all my lawyers. If you're getting into family law and you think it's a nine to five job, you're not gonna have many clients of your own. And again, I'm not saying we need we don't need the separation between you know work and home life. Of course we do. But um, in this business, people are frantic, they're scared, they're concerned, and things come up. I mean, I you know, anyone who's done this business a long time has had calls from their clients where the police are there or something crazy has happened, and you know, you got to step away from a dinner table to take a call and do something. It's part of the job. So, you know, I just don't understand how there are lawyers out there who just ignore client communications because what do you expect? You know, why would a client stay around if they're emailing you and not getting a response or calling you and just waiting to hear back? That's just not what we're supposed to be doing, and clients expect more of us, and I don't blame them.
Karen Covy: 39:38
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. Um, and I even as a coach, I get it's not a nine to five job. Although I do tell my clients, like if you email me at two in the morning, I'm sleeping.
Jonathan Merel: 39:51
You know, I there are boundaries, of course. Of course, there should always be boundaries. But um, you know, especially a client who has something urgent or Was emotional and isn't just asking about something that you know isn't time sensitive. I just think you got to get back to them. Even if it's just saying, hey, I got you, don't worry, we'll talk in the morning or something. They just want to hear from you.
Karen Covy: 40:14
Well, and how do you what would you tell clients? Like, how can they distinguish between what is legally significant and what's not? Like what really matters? Because you and I both know clients think everything matters and not everything matters.
Jonathan Merel: 40:30
I agree. That's a good point to make. I mean, obviously, you know, this is their world when they're going through a divorce, it's like everything is a big deal. And I think it's our job as lawyers to kind of calm them down a little too, which is of course where divorce coaches can come in handy and obviously, you know, control the emotional aspect to this. But I just think by the nature of the job, there are going to be clients who are, you know, difficult to calm down, or there really are situations ongoing which cause major stress or you know, urgency. So again, it's part of the job. I think clients need to understand, like, hey, you know, I'm having trouble getting my bank statement. I think that's something that can wait till tomorrow. Um, instead of something like, oh my God, you know, my spouse is here banging on the door, I'm scared, what do I do? So, there's a huge, there's a huge spectrum as to what the issues can be. And I think clients, of course, should understand the boundaries that exist too. Um, but I think as lawyers, you know, if you want to separate yourself from the rest, you have to be accessible even at times that you don't necessarily want to be.
Karen Covy: 41:35
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And Jonathan, I could talk to you for hours, right? We are two kindred souls.
Jonathan Merel: 41:44
Yes, 100%. This is awesome.
Karen Covy: 41:45
In the interest of your of respecting your time, um where if listeners have listened to this and they want to work with you or they want to find you, where's the best place for them to do that?
Jonathan Merel: 41:57
The easiest place is our website, Merel Family Law, M-E-R-E-L Family Law. You can find me on Instagram probably more than you want to see me, because I do post a lot. So Jonathan Merel on Instagram. I'm on sorry, on LinkedIn. Um, you can find us on Linked uh Instagram at Merel Family Law, but the best place is our website, Merel Family Law.com, or finding me on LinkedIn.
Karen Covy: 42:19
Awesome. And for everyone out there, I will link to all of Jonathan's places in the show notes so you will be able to find him without a problem. Jonathan, thank you again. I really appreciate it.
Jonathan Merel: 42:30
Thanks so much. This was awesome. I love the conversation.
Karen Covy: 42:32
This this was really fun, I agree. So for those of you who are out there watching and listening, if you think this was a good conversation, if you enjoyed it, please do me a big favor give the episode a thumbs up, like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you all again next time.
