Episode Description - How to Have Productive Money Conversations With Your Spouse
Money fights don’t usually start with numbers. They start with invisible beliefs you don’t realize you’re carrying, and they show up in the money conversations you have or don’t have with your spouse.
In this podcast episode, Terry Gaspard, a licensed therapist, author, and relationship expert, explains why money becomes such a charged issue in relationships and how childhood experiences shape our money beliefs in ways we rarely recognize.
Drawing from both professional research and her own personal experience, Terry talks about the scarcity versus abundance mindsets and why a clash of mindsets quietly drives conflict, even in strong relationships.
Unexamined money beliefs turn into blame, defensiveness, and power struggles, often without either partner understanding what’s really happening. Terry shares how awareness, education, and intentional money conversations can help couples uncover their money “scripts,” understand each other’s financial styles, and stop treating financial disagreements as personal attacks.
Whether you're struggling with conflicting money mindsets or just want to strengthen your financial partnership, this conversation offers actionable strategies that can transform how you handle money as a couple.
Show Notes
About Terry
Terry Gaspard, MSW, LICSW, is a licensed therapist with over thirty years of clinical experience specializing in individuals, couples, and families, divorce, remarriage, as well as an author, nonfiction writer, and college instructor. She is a contributor to Huffington Post, The Good Men Project, The Gottman Institute Blog, and Marriage.com. Two of her research studies on adult children of divorce have been published in the Journal of Divorce and Remarriage.
Connect with Terry
You can find Terry on LinkedIn at Terry Gaspard, Facebook at Moving Past Divorce, Twitter at Moving Past Divorce and on her website at Moving Past Divorce.
New from Terry
You can find Terry's new book, Let's Talk About Money: Low-Conflict Conversations for Couples" available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Also available on audiobook on Amazon.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Terry
- Terry Gaspard discusses her book Let's Talk About Money, inspired by her personal struggles with scarcity vs. abundance money mindsets.
- Money mindsets often begin in childhood but can evolve through awareness, education, and sometimes therapy.
- Couples frequently clash over money due to differing financial styles (e.g., super saver vs. super spender).
- Self-awareness tools like financial style quizzes and money script inventories help couples understand their beliefs and behaviors around money.
- Healthy money conversations require ground rules: no distractions, no blame, assume goodwill, and adopt an “us against the problem” mindset.
- Using a soft startup (“I feel…”, “I’m worried because…”) reduces defensiveness and prevents criticism or contempt.
- Bad debt (e.g., unpaid credit card balances) differs from good debt (e.g., mortgages, student loans with long-term value).
- Financial infidelity—hiding purchases, loans, or debts—is increasingly common but can be repaired through transparency and regular discussions.
- Couples benefit from choosing a money management system (one-pot, two-pot, or three-pot) based on shared agreement and openness.
- Scheduling consistent monthly money talks and budgeting together builds trust, intimacy, and long-term financial stability.
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Transcript
How to Have Productive Money Conversations With Your Spouse
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
money mindset, marriage and finance, financial transparency
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Terry Gaspard
Karen Covy: 0:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of having, for the second time, Terry Gaspard. And Terry is a licensed therapist, author, and college instructor who specializes in counseling children, adults, couples, and families in a private practice setting. Terry is the owner of movingpastdivorce.com. She's also a regular contributor to the Gottman Institute blog, pathos.com, the Goodmen Project.com, and Marriage.com. Terry has authored multiple award-winning books, including Daughters of Divorce, Overcome the Legacy of Your Parents' Breakup and Enjoy a Happy, Longlasting Relationship, and the Remarriage Manual, How to Make Everything Work Better the Second Time Around. Her new book, Let's Talk About Money, Low Clow Conflict Conversations for Couples, is now available in paperback and on audio, on Amazon, and wherever you get your books. Terry, welcome to the show.
Terry Gaspard: 1:36
Thank you, Karen. I really appreciate you having me on.
Karen Covy: 1:39
I am thrilled to have you for a lot of reasons because the money talk or the money conversations, because there should be more than one, are so important. But I'd like to start just with a little bit of a personal question. Why this book and why now?
Terry Gaspard: 1:56
Well, my agent, really Joelle Delborio, who runs the agency that um supports me and represents me, asked me what would be a good topic for my next book after the remarriage manual. She said, you tend to do well writing about your own experience. And the first thought that came to my mind, Karen, was money, because money has always been a major theme in my life. My mother was born in 1929, so she was a depressionaire baby and extremely frugal. And we used to have to share menu items when we went out for lunch or dinner. We couldn't order a beverage. Everything was about money, it doesn't grow on trees. You never know if you're going to have enough money. It was a scarcity mindset that I grew up with. And for whatever reason, my first husband, who's a great guy, and my second husband, who's also a wonderful person, have more of the abundance mindset, which, you know, money is flowing. There's plenty of money to go around. So there were many clashes in both of my marriages, yet I tended to point the finger at them and say they were overspending or they weren't, you know, saving enough for the future. And then I realized I was pretty uptight about money, and I needed to understand more about finances, you know, and also how to understand and show respect and validate their experience. So I interviewed a hundred couples and I interviewed a lot of experts, including you, because I have a chapter on prenups and post-nups, and I learned a lot. That's helped me not only in my second marriage, but has helped me because of all the couples I work with, another source of information because many of them struggle with finances.
Karen Covy: 3:48
Yeah, money is definitely a topic of conversation that causes conflict in a lot of marriages. But before we get to that, I want to focus on something you just mentioned, which is mindset. The scarcity mindset, meaning there's not enough or there's never enough, and the abundance mindset, which is the opposite saying there's always enough to go around, there's more than enough. Are those mindsets something that are created in our childhood and we're stuck with? Or is that are they something that we get later in life? Can they grow? Can they change? Tell me about those mindsets.
Terry Gaspard: 4:23
For the most part, I believe they start early in life, not just from our family, but we take in information from society, from schools, from teachers. A lot of mine was from my mother. She was a strong single parent and she was very verbal about her worries about money. But I also got, you know, information from teachers and from other people. And those aha moments, you know, where we worry about money when we're getting ready to launch into college or we need to save money for a new car, you know, those influence us as well, you know, because the economy can be tight and expenses keep going up. So they I believe they start in childhood, but they don't stop there. And they influence us throughout our young adulthood and our adulthood. The key really is awareness. I wasn't aware until I started writing this book just how deeply rooted my scarcity mindset was. Like I said, I tended to think other people were frivolous or they didn't care enough about money. And then I realized that I was actually being vigilant. I was always good at saving money. Vigilance is a money script that I talk about in the book. But I wasn't so good at understanding other people's mindset and compromising, which I've learned those skills through the years.
Karen Covy: 5:47
Is mindset, your money mindset, something that you can change?
Terry Gaspard: 5:54
Definitely. Through awareness, through education, and in some cases, people need therapy. You know, they need coaches like yourself, they need therapists like me to help them to figure out where did I develop this mindset and what are some thoughts that I have going through my head that are obstacles for me being successful. For instance, my husband having the abundance mindset, he likes to go on more vacations than I do. So that's great. And what we've learned to do is compromise and go for long weekends or vacations that are fun, but not, you know, they're not going to burst the bank, they're not going to cause us to go into financial ruin. So I'm having more fun with life now because I don't have to worry, okay, can I afford that vacation? Yeah, I'm at the stage in my life where I can certainly go to one of the national parks or go to New York for the a long weekend and enjoy myself. So they can change, especially if you are transparent and have regular money talks with your partner and or sometimes a professional like yourself, or many, in many cases, financial advisors or planners can help us as well.
Karen Covy: 7:08
So, how let's say a couple is having clashes about money and they don't even they don't know what they don't know. They're not aware of their own money mindset, they don't know why they're clashing and they're blaming each other. It's your fault, you're the you're spending too much, no, you're too miserly, no, you're too, and you get into the blame game. If a couple finds themselves in that situation, what do they do?
Terry Gaspard: 7:36
Well, first of all, in chapter one of my book, Let's Talk About Money, I offer two quizzes or inventories. One is the financial styles quiz, which I developed with the help of an expert. And they can find out what type of spender they are or saver, what is their financial style or way of dealing with money and finances, what is their attitude, okay? So then they can say, okay, I'm a super spender or I'm a super saver or I'm a moderate saver, I'm a moderate spender. I myself am a super saver. I didn't realize that. I'm not just a saver, I go through my checking account every single morning and figure out how much money I can save. So that's a that's hyper vigilant, right?
Karen Covy: 8:24
Wow.
Terry Gaspard: 8:25
Yeah, it's a bit much. So I didn't know that about myself. I thought I was just a regular spend uh saver. And then um Klaunz, Dr. Klauntz and his son, whose last name is also Klaunz, developed the money script inventory. And I have that in chapter one. And that gets more into your beliefs about money. Like I said, are you vigilant? Do you watch every penny? Are you a money worshiper that really, you know, likes to name brands, wants people to look up to you because you own a big house and a big car, you know, are you an avoider? Are you a money avoider who doesn't want to talk about money? So by taking these two quizzes, you can find this out, and then you can talk to your partner about it. In chapter one, and most chapters of the book, actually, Karen, I offer activities for couples to go through together to discuss these topics.
Karen Covy: 9:21
Like, like what kinds of activities? Because I can imagine that having these conversations, because money is so filled with emotion and beliefs and ideas, and we're tied to our money identity, actually. Um, how can people, how can couples have a conversation about money when they hold very different beliefs about what money is and what it represents, and they don't want to blow up their marriage. They don't want to create a big conflict. How can they have these conversations calmly?
Terry Gaspard: 9:52
Okay, well, first of all, you need to be clear of distractions. So I recommend that you don't have children around, other families members around, you don't have the TV on, put your cell phones away in a drawer somewhere, and really tune in. Sometimes if you have a comfortable restaurant that you can go to where you can sit in the corner and you know you'll be in a quiet place, that can work, or in a part of your home which is private, and you need to have some ground rules for these discussions. You need to basically assume the best of your partner, you need to listen with the idea of turning toward each other, giving each other good eye contact, and not interrupting each other rather than turning away and looking at other stimuli. And definitely don't turn against. Unless you need a five-minute break, when you're having a money talk, you need to not walk out of the room or in some way insult your partner by dismissing their point of view. So your idea, the idea for the money talk is to have all your financial information in front of you. I recommend you that's the only excuse for using your phone or computer, obviously, if your records are online. If not, I my financial information, I like the hard copy, so I can have those for the money talks, but talk about in a very transparent way, talk about how we need to understand, we need to share information in a transparent way so that we can grow and learn for each other, from each other. And what I discuss in in most chapters of the book is the us against the problem approach, which is the opposite of us against each other. Okay. Can you say more about that? Well, us against the problem basically is an approach of we're in it together. That we're not blaming each other. If we have, for instance, unexpected expenses, like a home repair, which happens a lot, right, or expensive car repairs. One month we both needed major car repairs. Was that my husband's fault? Was it my fault? Absolutely not. We just needed to come up with three or four thousand dollars. So fortunately, we had an emergency fund, which I talk about in the book, so we could draw from that. But when those expenses come up, and one of us got in an accident once, or one of our kids needed some extra cash, we don't blame each other. We try to figure out a way to deal with the problem. That's us against the problem. Blame is really toxic to a relationship.
Karen Covy: 12:34
Yeah, a hundred percent. And it that's true no matter what you're blaming about. And money is a prime source for people to start blaming each other. But what can they see? It sounds like when you what you're describing in the book is that it's about more than just conversations. You really cover a lot of ground in the book. Can you tell me what kinds of things are covered in the book? What do you talk about?
Terry Gaspard: 13:01
So, first of all, I talk about, as I said, your history with money, your money style, your money mindset in chapter one. I have all these activities. And then I go into just specific ways to have good, healthy money talks and achieve more intimacy by doing so on a regular basis, not avoiding them, but just even if you're feeling stressed, let your partner know I'm here, I'm willing to talk about our finances, and we're gonna have this talk on a regular basis. And I give a lot of good um suggestions about how to really avoid the attack, defense, or defensive dynamic which happens so much. Why do people get defensive about money? They feel attacked. They feel that their partner is going right for the juggler. And I used to do that with my husband. I used to scan his credit card bills and say, well, what was that for? And what was that for? So then after a while, he didn't want to share things with me because he felt like I was being critical. And Dr. John Gottman has taught me that criticism and contempt are the two leading causes of divorce. So those are the two C's that I definitely recommend that couples avoid. If you want to complain a little, that's different, but criticizing a person's character or the things they do without gaining information about why they're doing them. In other words, your partner might be ordering some parts for their bar, for their bicycle, and you might assume they're buying a new bicycle for $1,000. You know, sometimes we have assumptions that are false. So those are things I cover in the first few chapters, and then it goes beyond that.
Karen Covy: 14:44
But how would someone go about doing that? How do they because what I've discovered in the work that I do is a lot of times we're critical, but we don't perceive ourselves as being critical. You just think you're being factual. Hey, there's this expense, and I don't know what it is, and it's really big. And what did you buy? Why did you buy? And then the other, the person on the receiving end of that feels like they're attacked, right? So, how can somebody start to diffuse that when they don't even realize they're doing it?
Terry Gaspard: 15:18
Well, self-awareness is key, Karen, and one of the techniques that I talk about in the book is starting the conversation with a soft startup and a curious tone. And basically, what that is, is start with how you feel. I feel stressed, I feel confused. When it comes to money, many of us feel worried, right? And when I start these conversations with my husband Craig, I usually say, I'm worried about money. The next step, step two, is why do I feel that way? So, first, I how do I feel? Why do I feel that way? I'm worried about money because we've had some extra expenses this month, and I don't want to take the money out of our emergency fund. So that's step one and step two. Step three would be what uh do I see as a solution to the problem? But I want your input, right? That's the curious part of it. What do you suggest we do? What are some things that you know you think we can cut back on? What are some of those non-essentials? Maybe we can not go out to dinner as many times, or you know, maybe he has some ideas or she has some ideas. So in my case, I'm worried about money. We've had some extra unexpected expenses. I think that, you know, we can go out to dinner once, but typically we go out every week. Maybe we can cut back a little bit on that. What do you think? And Craig would say something like, Well, you know, we can we can put off buying the things that we needed for our home another month until we get caught up on some of our bills, because he knows how important it is to avoid charging things on our credit card that we can't pay off that month. That's another really important tip. Avoiding bad debt. I have a whole chapter on that because so many of us use credit cards like cash.
Karen Covy: 17:17
So that's a suggestion. So it that just spurs the question what is bad debt? I mean, what's the difference between good debt and bad debt?
Terry Gaspard: 17:27
Bad debt is debt that is money that you don't, you're using money that you don't really have. Now, bad debt would be credit card debt that you don't pay off that month. If you pay off the debt, the credit card that you use, you use it for purchases and you use it to get rewards that many of us do. That's not bad debt because you're paying it off. Bad debt is having large credit card balances, and the average person has over $10,000 of credit card balances. Many couples have I've interviewed couples that have $40,000, $50,000 in credit card debt. And so that's bad debt. Often people consider buying a car bad debt because the value of the car decreases the minute you leave the parking lot. Good debt would be a mortgage at a fairly low interest rate because you have the ability to res to sell, resell the house, and hopefully make a profit, right? Another example of good debt would be student loans. Typically, at a low interest rate, and the goal of getting the loan is to, you know, obviously, you know, get more education so you can get a better job. So that would be good debt. And in that chapter, I offer many solutions, which we probably don't have time to go over, like the um snowball effect or the snowball technique, where Dave Ramsey recommends this too, the financial expert, where you pay off the credit card with the highest balance. You just go try to get as many credit card bills paid off as fast as you can, but you do it over a period of a year and you see some real progress, you know, as opposed to the avalanche, where the avalanche approach is where you pay off the credit cards with the highest interest. So there's many ways to pay off credit card debt, and people can be successful at that if they've they have if they have a shared vision, which is another thing I talk about, and they really both make an attempt to not use credit cards like cash.
Karen Covy: 19:33
Okay, so speaking of shared vision, um, what I see, obviously, since I work with a lot of people who are thinking about or facing divorce or trying to recover from a divorce, right? They didn't have that shared vision. And a hot topic in today's world is financial infidelity or financial abuse within a relationship, a permanent relationship or a marriage. Do you? Talk about that in the book and what do you consider to be financial abuse?
Terry Gaspard: 20:04
Thank you for asking that. I have a chapter on financial infidelity and how it could lead to the end of your relationship. Financial infidelity is on the rise, and what it is intentionally lying or keeping secrets from your partner about financial matters. And I'll give you a quick sketch of that. So I have a couple that I work with. These are not their real names. Um, and their names are Matthew and Kyla, and one of them went ahead and purchased something for their home. Actually, it was, you know, a very expensive item and didn't tell him about it. Uh Kyla didn't tell Matthew about it. And he found out about it through a receipt that he saw on the counter. And she continued to purchase a lot of things without discussing it with him. Another example is someone that loans money to a relative or a friend. And I've done that. I've loaned money to one of my kids without telling my husband about it. Not thinking that that was financial infidelity. What I realized from reading up on some of the studies, it is not sharing information or keeping a secret is financial infidelity because you're not telling the truth.
Karen Covy: 21:23
Talking about financial abuse or financial infidelity, what do you do if your partner bought something big didn't tell you, and there's no remorse, there's no they do it again, they do it again, they do it again. What do you do?
Terry Gaspard: 21:43
Well, you have to be patient with it. You don't want to come across as being too accusatory because of that blame dynamic that we talked about earlier, but you need to let them know with that soft and curious tone how it makes you feel, why you feel that way. You want to discuss it, and you know that being transparent and sharing information is really key to having a successful relationship and to be good with finances. You want to work on it, you know that it's pretty common for people to hide information. Um, hopefully they're not lying, but sometimes people lie to protect themselves because they don't want to be attacked or accused of things. Um, and you want to come up with a plan. That once again is the yes against the problem. You know, because it is so common.
Karen Covy: 22:37
Is this the kind of thing that you could go to a therapist and say we have issues, and our issues are money. I mean, I always think of going to a therapist to talk about feelings, but this is like is this something a therapist, a couples counselor, can help you deal with?
Terry Gaspard: 22:56
Definitely. The couple that I mentioned were in therapy with me for almost a year and they worked on those issues, why they were, why one of them was hiding information and didn't really see it as a negative or a toxic, toxic element in her relationship. She came, she became more aware of it. She realized that she had insecurities due to her former marriage. Sometimes after a divorce, too, Karen. And this happened to me, you know, you keep in information, you don't share it with your new partner because you don't want to be rejected, or you don't want your partner to think that, you know, you're not handling things very well, or you're irresponsible with money. And sometimes people are not clearly irresponsible, they just don't know how to handle, you know, a request for a loan, or they feel overwhelmed, or they're worried about their partner maybe you're not being willing to, you know, approve of a purchase. So what I've learned about financial infidelity is you if you become more transparent and you have regular money talks, over time you can heal from it. It is something you can overcome. Many therapists like myself work with couples and help them deal with it. If the couple doesn't feel that their relationship has to end over it, it's like any type of infidelity, you know, it could be sexual or emotional infidelity. As long as you work on it, you make a commitment, I call it a commitment pledge, to have open, transparent money talks with a therapist if you need it, if you're successful doing it on your own. And then sometimes obviously people need to meet with financial planners.
Karen Covy: 24:45
That spurs a question about not while you're in a relationship, well, not while you're after you're already married, but before you're married. And I know your book covers prenups too, because we've talked about that. But what about, you know, what kinds of conversations would you recommend that a couple have who are thinking about getting married before they get married so they can set themselves up for a solid financial future together?
Terry Gaspard: 25:18
Thank you for asking that. It's so important because a lot of couples go into engagement and marriage without having any information about each other's financial styles, mindsets, ways of handling money. In chapter three of my book, I have a model called money management. And in this model, I offer three styles: the one-pot, the two-pot, or the three-pot systems. And a lot of couples, young couples particularly, and sometimes middle-aged or older couples, have the you know, two-pot system where they share expenses 50-50. They might exchange money through Venmo or PayPal PAL or something like that. And it works for them to a certain extent, unless there's a problem, and then maybe they might have uh, you know, a clash. The one-pot system where you share your checking and your savings account and you're more transparent, tends to be more effective for couples that are in marriage in a marriage or long-term commitment because it lends itself to full disclosure. But on the other hand, if the two-pot system works for you and you want to have your money separate, that doesn't have to be a disaster as long as you're aware of it, you agree upon it, and you have regular talks about it. One solution for divorced and remarried couples that I have found to be very successful is the three-pot system. And that's a combination of the one-pot and the two-pot.
Karen Covy: 26:53
Okay.
Terry Gaspard: 26:54
Basically, you have a shared checking and a shared saving account that you use for things like your mortgage, your utilities, maybe even your food. But you have your separate account, which could be used for mad money. You want to go for go on trips with your family or have your own money. Or if you have children from a former relationship, you might put child support or other income in there and use it for their expenses like college tuition, that kind of thing. So that can be a win-win model. So any of these different styles or approaches can work, but you want to look at the benefits of each and the drawbacks and make a decision. And if you can do that before you get engaged and married or married, I think it's a great idea.
Karen Covy: 27:39
Yeah, it sounds like the theme that's running through all of this is conversation. Like rather than making anything, this is the way, this is good, this is bad, you talk about it with your spouse or soon-to-be spouse, right? So true. So this do you have in the book, do you have suggestions for how people can have the conversation or have these conversations you've mentioned, you have them regularly. Well, do you make it like a standard, okay, every, you know, the first Friday of every month we're going to talk about money? Or, or is it something that you just have the conversations as you need? What do you recommend? What works?
Terry Gaspard: 28:26
Regular, consistent money talks, hopefully, you know, the beginning of the month, the end of the month. If you schedule it, just like you schedule a doctor's appointment or a therapy appointment or a coaching appointment, it tends to be more reliable. If you say we're going to have it whenever we feel like it, it doesn't work as well. Same thing with your budget. I have a chapter on budgeting in the book with some sample budgets and how to set up a budget. If you have a budget and you budget out for three months, Karen, and you put your income and your expenses, which as you know, can change from month to month, and then how much you have left over and whether how much you're gonna save, because you should have hopefully 20% of your money left over after your expenses. You know, how are you gonna save all that? Do you need to replenish your emergency fund, which should be up to three months of expenses? And then your retirement. The earlier you start putting money into your retirement, we all know the better it is. So you need to go over that on a monthly basis and see how things change and evolve. Sometimes our income changes, you know, for instance. And then, you know, planning it and not being afraid of it, not having that avoidance style, which so many of us can have. Well, I don't feel like it tonight, or that's the last thing I want to talk about. Or maybe you have memories of your former marriage or your parents' marriage when they argued about money, and you have that embedded in your memories. You know, it doesn't have to be that way. It can be a productive conversation where you learn a lot from each other about your values, your beliefs, what's important to you. As I said for myself, I've enjoyed going on more vacations, and we're still saving money for our retirement and doing fine. And I'm kind of amazed at that, really, because I didn't think that was possible with my vigilant, super saver style, right?
Karen Covy: 30:26
Yeah. So it sounds like everyone could learn a lot about how to have these conversations and how to have them in a productive way from you, from your book and from the work that they do. So if they're interested in either following up with you or getting a copy of your book, where's the best place for them to do that?
Terry Gaspard: 30:45
You can find my book on Amazon. Let's talk about money, low conflict conversations for couples on Amazon. It's on BarnesandNoble.com. It's on my website, movingpastdivorce.com, which you can also find free blogs there. And you can go right to the publisher, which is bloomsberryacademic.com. That's awesome. So, and if people want to find you, would they go to moving pastdivorce.com? Movingpastdivorce.com. You'll see my blogs. You can send me a message. I'm also on Instagram, Terry Gaspard. I have videos where I talk about my book on there. I'm on Instagram, um, X, I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Blue Sky.
Karen Covy: 31:30
That's awesome. Terry, thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing so much wisdom about a topic that it's so important. It's so timely with expenses going up. And I know it causes so much strife in so many marriages. So thank you so much for sharing and for all that you do.
Terry Gaspard:
Thank you, Karen.
Karen Covy:
And for those of you out there who are watching and who are listening, if you enjoyed this episode, if you'd like to hear more episodes just like it, do me a big favor: give the episode a thumbs up, like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.
