When Marriage Counseling Fails: How to Save Your Marriage

Episode Description - When Marriage Counseling Fails: How to Save Your Marriage

Most couples don’t fall apart because they don’t love each other. They fall apart because they don’t understand the patterns quietly running their relationship. In this podcast episode, Psychotherapist and relationship coach Christie Bemis reveals why traditional marriage counseling often fails ... and what actually works to create lasting change in struggling marriages. 

With over 20 years of experience and a fresh approach called Relational Life Therapy, Christie explains how the coping mechanisms that protected us in childhood often sabotage our adult relationships. 

Instead of treating both partners as "the problem," Christie focuses on the dysfunctional pattern they've created together. This one small shift changes everything, because when you’re focused on your own behavior, you can change the pattern and dynamic of your entire relationship even if your partner doesn’t change.

Christie also dives deeply into themes like emotional attunement, boundaries, intimacy, and why communication tools alone rarely fix relationship disconnection. 

If your marriage is struggling and traditional marriage counseling just hasn’t worked, this podcast episode can open the door to a whole new approach that just might save your marriage.

Show Notes

About Christie

Christie Bemis is a psychotherapist, sex educator, and relationship coach with over 20 years of experience helping people deepen intimacy and connection. She’s the founder of Hot Pink YOUniversity, host of the Ignite Your Life podcast, and author of multiple offerings that empower people to reignite passion and prioritize love.

Connect with Christie

You can connect with Christie on LinkedIn at Christie Bemis and on Facebook at Hot Pink You. You can follow Christie on Instagram at Christie Bemis and on YouTube at Hot Pink YOUniversity. To learn more about working with Christie, visit her website at Christie Bemis.

Special Offer

Curious about the health of your relationship? Christie is offering the SPARCS Assessment for couples on her website. In less than 10 minutes, this online tool evaluates all six areas of partnership — helping you celebrate your strengths and pinpoint the areas that could use a little more love and support.

Key Takeaways From This Episode with Christie

• Christie Bemis is a psychotherapist, sex educator, and relationship coach with 20+ years of experience helping couples rebuild connection, deepen intimacy, and create lasting change in their relationships.
• Most couples think their problem is communication or sex… but those are usually just the symptoms.  The real issue? Couples get stuck in patterns—and until the pattern changes, the relationship won’t.
• Many of the behaviors that damage relationships today were actually survival strategies we learned in childhood which can become harmful “losing strategies.” These can include control, retaliation, emotional dumping, and withdrawal.
• Couples therapy can be more effective through intensive sessions (half-day or multi-day) that allow deeper work and emotional resolution.
• The SPARCS framework evaluates relationships across six areas: safety, play/pleasure, attunement/attachment, realized dreams, communication, and sex/intimacy.
• One of the biggest relationship complaints: “I don’t feel seen or heard.” That’s an attunement problem, not just a communication problem.
• Healthy conflict requires moving from childhood reactions to a “wise adult” response grounded in empathy, curiosity, and emotional regulation.
• Relationship improvement requires both partners to be self-reflective; curiosity and empathy are key tools for rebuilding connection.
• Great relationships aren’t built on winning arguments—they’re built on empathy, curiosity, and the willingness to grow together. When couples focus on understanding each other instead of proving who’s right, real transformation becomes possible.

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Transcript

When Marriage Counseling Fails: How to Save Your Marriage

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

connection, conflict resolution, empathy, attunement

SPEAKERS

Karen Covy, Christie Bemis

Karen Covy: 0:10

Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.

With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Christie Bemis. And Christie is a psychotherapist, sex educator, and relationship coach with over 20 years of experience helping people deepen intimacy and connection. Christie specializes in empowering clients to make lasting changes by offering tailored therapeutic experiences, including intensive one-on-one sessions for individuals and couples. Christie is also the founder of Hot Pink YOUniversity, that's YOUniversity, the host of the Ignite Your Life podcast, and the author of multiple offerings that empower people to reignite passion and prioritize love. Christie, welcome to the show.

Christie Bemis:

Thanks for having me. I'm so happy and excited to be here with you today.

Karen Covy:

I'm excited to have you because, you know, everybody thinks that as a former divorce lawyer, I am pushing divorce on people. And nothing could be further than the truth from that. I believe in marriage and I believe in divorce.  I believe in making the best relationship that you can have. And I love that your work is empowering couples to make their marriages better. But I'm curious before we dive into what you do, why you do it. Why relationship counseling, why marriage counseling?

Christie Bemis: 2:04

That's such a good place to start because I feel like my passion for relationships and marriage really started at a really young age. My parents were divorced when I was seven. And I have been super curious about relationships ever since then. I just I remember even as a little girl, like reading the Good Housekeeping magazine. And my favorite column was uh, you know, that column of couples and like uh what can they do now? You know, and you would read his side, her side, and then the therapist's like perspective. So, I feel like at a really early age, I was super curious about relationships. And then in my own journey through relationships, I have been in unhealthy ones in the past and ones where the partner wasn't willing to make any kind of self-reflective changes and things like that. Now I'm in a partnership that my partner can come to me after a conflict or you know, something where we're reaching a really hard place of negotiation, and he can say, Okay, here's the part I'm owning. And I can say, Okay, here's the part I'm owning. So when you're in this relationship where it just feels like adulting, it just is so powerful. And from healthy relationships, we launch every other aspect of our life. I can't be on top of my game and my career, on top of my game and my finances, on top of my game, even with my own kids or with my friends. If I'm dealing with relationship stress back there that's taking and consuming all of my time and energy. And so I really feel passionate for couples to have the healthiest relationship as possible. And like you, I'm not a marriage, you rub at all costs. If you need to end your relationship, how can you do it in a place that you get the support of somebody like you, that you can do it from a place of integrity and that you can learn that it wasn't a failure or a mistake, but I learned so much in that relationship. And so that's what I'm passionate about. I never, I never have a couple in front of me where I want their relationship to work harder than what they want their relationship to work. So, if I can help them also leave in as best means possible, that's my job.

Karen Covy: 4:42

I love that. And a lot of the people that I work with, most of them have been through marriage counseling and they all say the same thing that it doesn't work. And a lot of times they, or it hasn't worked for them, or maybe it worked for a little while and then they just went back to the way things always were, right? So it didn't make any lasting change. And a lot of people are reluctant to go try it again because it's just the same old, same old. And especially the person who's starting to think about divorce doesn't want to be forced to work on the marriage. And their perception of marriage counseling is that the therapist is going to try to keep them married at all costs. Is that what you've seen in your practice that that a lot of your colleagues are marriage, marriage, marriage? Or are more of them kind of coming around to where you are now?

Christie Bemis: 5:38

Yeah, um, I think a really big change in how I do my practice with couples came when I met uh Terry Real's work by running across the book Us. Might have been in 2022, I think it was published. And my partner and I read the book together. We would read it on long trips, and it just really struck me as a totally different way of looking at marriage and couples work. Um, I've done the Gottman stuff, I've done you know, Imago work with Harville Hendricks and Helen LaKelli Hunt. I follow Esther Perel. Like I love all of these modalities. And the relational life therapy work that I've been doing now is a really different modality. One of the biggest differences uh is in therapeutic work, we're often taught don't have alliances, don't take a side. But in relational or RLT therapy, uh you do take sides. You take the side of the person that's being the most relational and support the person that's being the least relational right now to do the heavy lift. That doesn't mean that the person being the least relational right now is always gonna be doing the heavy lift, but it does mean if 80% of the lift is you right now, it's gonna be on you. And that might shift as you are making shifts. Your partner might be called to task to make 60% of the work happen once you're making the work. And so that's been really, really different. And there's other differences with that modality that have really increased the odds of success in my relationship work that I've been doing with couples and other RLT therapists that I talk to as well. And so that's been a really exciting, you know, when I'm 50 years old, 55 years old, and I run across a new modality. It's just like, okay, you haven't seen it all, Christie, and here's something new to come across your path. So it's something I'm feeling really excited about. It also talks a lot and works a lot with grandiosity in a really refined and shamefree way that I don't think I've ever run across before. And so it really is calling in the partner that's being the least empathetic, the least uh relational, and really honing in on where does that come from for you? Where did you see this happen in your childhood? How did this happen to you? How did it get created? And how can we work to heal that part of you so that you can be in the relationship that you want to have with somebody?

Karen Covy: 8:26

So, you've mentioned a couple of times now that the partner who is the most relational or the least relational, what does that mean?

Christie Bemis: 8:36

Yeah, so the more grandiose I have a tendency, true confession. Okay, when I'm under stress, my least relational self can get a little grandiose, like uh feeling like it's all about me, it's all about my needs, self-gratification. And when I'm being more relational, when I'm feeling at capacity, you know, full of capacity and fully resourced, I'm more thinking about us. How can there be a win-win in here for us? But when I have that tendency, I can go to this place of really self-protection. And I learned that early on as a young girl. Uh, if nobody, if my parents aren't going to be here to protect me, I'm for sure gonna protect me. And so I can get really non-relational in that way when I'm only looking out for myself in my own best interests, versus what is relationship joy? And how do I contribute to the relationship joy? How do I think the best of my partner? How do I see my partner as not my enemy, not the person out to get me, but that we're on the same team. We both want the same things.

Karen Covy: 9:51

Yeah.

Christie Bemis: 9:51

And so that's what I'm talking about.

Karen Covy: 9:54

Okay, so how I mean, you're  all excited about Terry Reel's work. And I have to assume, but I've learned not to assume, um, that that must be that you've seen better results with Terry Reels work, that you see that it actually works. And a lot of times, again, what I hear from people who've been to marriage counseling or couples therapy is that, you know, yeah, we tried it, it didn't really do much. It didn't move the needle. What makes Terry Reel's work different and does it move the needle for more couples?

Christie Bemis: 10:26

I have seen it move the needle and I have felt more successful. And I think couples that I've worked with feel that there's more success. So part of it is the client is not the two people in front of me, it's the pattern the two people are creating. That can be really empowering for people. When you're coming in and you're like, if my partner would just change X, Y, and Z, I'll show up as A B C. Okay, great. But that's the partner you married, and this is the pattern you've created. Can we change the pattern, something you're doing to contribute to it? That's so much more empowering if I know that I can change something in the relationship. I don't have to sit and wait over here while I'm waiting for my partner to change. I can change a piece of it for me. That might even just be as simple as taking a more responsible time out. When things get heated, when things, when the discussion is deteriorating, and my most adaptive child in me is showing up, and I'm five years old again in the relationship. I can take myself on a timeout and I can come back when I feel more regulated and more in my wise adult being, and I can show up way more relationally and I can hear to really listen and really understand my partner and have a little bit more empathy and compassion. So it can be as simple as that, just taking a responsible time out for partners. Um, how we pursue getting our needs met in relationship is often from a place of dysfunction. What was adaptive as a kid. If I sulked and pouted and banged around a little bit, my parents would come eventually and say, Chrissy, what do you need? But as a grown adult woman, that's not so cute.

Karen Covy: 12:20

Yeah.  Not so cute.

Christie Bemis: 12:21

So if it was adaptive then and it got me what I wanted, most likely it's male adaptive now and creating a disconnect in my intimacy with my partner. And that's something I can change.

Karen Covy: 12:35

So do most people carry with them the uh behaviors or the behavioral patterns, I should say, that they learned that served them in childhood?

Christie Bemis: 12:47

Everybody does. We all do. They stay with us, you know. Um, we use them when we feel like relational stress. We use we use those adaptations uh and losing strategies when we're at work, you know. Um, and they losing strategies are uh control, they're retaliation. You hurt me, I'm gonna hurt you back. Unbridled self-expression, that's my favorite, where I just verbally vomit on my partner because I've held everything back because I've been a good partner and I've been holding all this in, but now I'm gonna like gush it all out on you at one time. Not great. Uh withdrawing from the relationship, but which is different than silent treatment because silent treatment is more about uh control. I'm gonna control my partner through being silent. Yeah. So those are some of the losing strategies that, yeah, we all carry them. They continue to be a part of us. But when we can start seeing it through that lens of that was adaptive then, but it's not getting me what I want now, you can't unsee it. And so couples regularly come in after just two or three sessions with me and they say, okay, that was my adaptive child showing up. I want to bring my wise adult online. How can I do that better? So it's really powerful to have that shift of perspective.

Karen Covy: 14:09

Yeah, I know, you know, I mentioned it you just mentioned, you know, when people come to you repeated times. I know one thing that's different about the way that you work than a lot of other therapists is that you really do the a lot of the intensives, like the deep dives with couples and individuals, um, where they're, you know, spending a day or a half a day or a couple of days versus the one hour a week, every week for forever, right? Why? What's the difference between those two approaches and why did you choose the one you do?

Christie Bemis: 14:44

I love my intensives, whether they're a half day or a full day or multiple days in a row. Um I think that it speaks to couples that are busy with their schedules. It's hard to find time to make it to a 50, 60 minute appointment. Most of my appointments are 90 minutes. Um and so it attracts couples that are busy in their schedule, that are maybe traveling for work throughout their weeks and stuff. And so when they can chunk that time out, it just feels really precious. Um, I think we can get deeper. You know, it I've what I was discovering with traditional 50, 60 minute sessions was that the couple would become unraveled and then I'd leave them like open my door and push them out into the world, like my next session's here. I'm sorry, you gotta go. But they'd be like so unpackaged emotionally. And so the intensives allow the unpacking, but also the repacking of like now you now you need to go out in the world. So, I'll give you an example. I've worked with a couple, and the woman was feeling incredibly triggered. They had brought their dog to the session. And when I asked her in that emotionally dysregulated state, what do you feel like you need right now? She's like, I just think I need to get on the floor with my dog and like snuggle for a minute. It allowed us the spaciousness to have this half day intensive where she could show her partner, this is how I regulate. And then I can come back into the conversation with you in a fully regulated state that I've done for myself. And we can have an adult conversation again. And it was just such a powerful like affirmation for me of this is I'm on to something here. This is the work I want to do with couples.

Karen Covy: 16:34

I love that you said that. And I honestly, in all of the therapists I've spoken with, and it's been a few, um, I've never known anyone that lets a dog come into a session. I think that's fabulous.

Christie Bemis: 16:45

I love dogs in session or you know, whatever you use at home to like regulate your state, you know. Uh, I love that. And I have a retreat center up in the central Wisconsin area, and it's dog friendly, you know, bring your dog with you, and we can have a half day intensive up there.

Karen Covy: 17:04

So that sounds fabulous. You know, another thing that you do that's different than a lot of other therapists that I've spoken with is something called a SPARCS assessment. Can you explain what is that? How does it work, and how is it available to people?

Christie Bemis: 17:21

Yeah, so the SPARCS Assessment is an acronym. It stands for safety, play and pleasure, attunement and attachment, realized dreams, communication, and sex and intimacy. So it hits six areas that I find are pretty common with all of the couples that I work with and are pretty integral. And it's no um, you know, coincidence that safety's first. Because if you don't feel safe, and I'm not talking physical safe like domestic violence, that's different. If you don't feel safe in your relationship, then the foundational piece of being emotionally regulated in your body is missing. So it starts out there, and safety can come from your partner following through on things that they say they're going to, your partner going to the dentist and getting regular health checkups, especially as we age. That makes me feel safe when I know my partner's taking good care of themselves physically, and I'm not going to be their caretaker prematurely. You know, if that happens, that happens. But it's not going to be happening because they didn't do everything they could. Um, there's lots of things about the intensity, frequency, duration of fights that go into that part of the assessment. And so when couples can take it, and it's more of a conversational assessment of there's no right or wrong. It's just, hmm, I never thought of safety that way. I never thought about play and pleasure that way. I think it can be a really great launching point for couples to have the conversations that they need to have of how they can see what their strengths are in their relationship. And then where are places we need to kind of shore things up? Where are places we are really suffering or finding challenging? And it can provide less overwhelm for couples. Just pick one, just pick one area and like let's focus on that together. So, it can be really empowering.

Karen Covy: 19:22

Of those areas, what area do you see is the one that usually causes the most problems for couples? Where do they where do most couples fall down?

Christie Bemis: 19:34

So, couples usually come in for two reasons communication and sex. But really, I think the biggest area that I see the best and most valuable change is attunement and attachment style. You're getting at that childhood stuff that kind of wires you to be who you are in the relationship, or at least in this relationship. And attunement is presencing yourself with your partner. It's being able to, uh, if you had to say, What did your partner walk out of the house wearing today? Are you able to say, I know that he or she was wearing a blue shirt and blue jeans and they had their brown shoes? Most people are just kind of on autopilot around each other. And attunement is really about tuning into a change in tone of your partner and being more attentive. And attunement is really acknowledging we're not just roommates, we're actually here, we're present, we're human beings. And when I walk by you in the kitchen, I'm gonna stroke your shoulders and let you know I see you, you're here. And most couples, when you get right down to it, will say, I don't feel seen or heard. And so it's yes,

Karen Covy:

I hear that all the time. All the time.

Christie Bemis:

So attunement is kind of the hidden uh slice of pie in there that people don't really, they think if I learn communication tools, then we'll be fine. If we have better sex, if we have more sex more frequently, I'll feel better. Well, yeah, that's a part of it. But if you're not having attuned sex, you're not really having as delicious of sex as you can possibly have with your partner. That's what I think.

Karen Covy: 21:18

Yeah, I've  heard so many people, it's like they think that the communication tools are going to fix everything. So they're saying the right things, but it's  hollow, it's not fulfilling. They're not, they don't, it doesn't help them build the connection that they were after.   So, you know, how can people go to that deeper level? How do they, you know, how do they attune properly?

Christie Bemis: 21:48

Yeah, so I think a lot of people learn to um kind of go inward and self soothe, or they stay a lot in their heads. Okay. So attunement really is a body based uh feeling that you have. Think about when you're walking through the grocery store. Are you tuning into do you do you run into people or do you feel people around you? Like, oh yeah, that's my radar tuning in. I'm not just in the grocery store by myself. So it's really dropping down into the body and listening to your body a little bit more instead of being in our head so much. And certainly, as a talk therapist, I'm in my head a lot, but I'm really consciously trying to tune into my body as I'm working with couples and helping them tune into themselves a little bit more. What is my body feeling right now? Because that's really where the emotions lie, that's where the feelings lie. I'd way rather hear how is that making you feel versus how is that making you think?. Because that's just an interpretation. And you know, it's through the lens of your warped, you know, kind of distortions about the other person. But how is that making you feel? And that's a deeper, better question, I feel like for couples.

Karen Covy: 23:04

Yeah. So this the sparks assessment that you were talking about, is this something that couples can do on their own and that will help them make progress or deepen their connection? Or is this something they do with you? How does that work?

Christie Bemis: 23:19

Yeah, certainly couples can do the shortened version. If you go to my website, they can the shorter version pops up and you get an instant, you know, result of like where are you at with the help and support that you need. The longer assessment, people can reach out to me and and get the assessment. It's not published yet. Uh, I'm working on the book that goes around, you know, supporting the assessment right now. But I have given it to couples. Take on a weekend where you're going with your partner somewhere and start the conversation, do parts of the assessment together. So couples certainly can do it on their own or in conjunction with working with me. I can help couples kind of walk through that longer assessment piece.

Karen Covy: 24:05

I'm curious in the work that you do, um, there's sort of a difference of opinion in the world about this, about whether if one person in the couple wants to make the marriage better and the other person is just saying, no, I'm this is this is who I am and I'm not changing. Um is there such a thing as the point of no return where you can't like the person's just done and they're not gonna change or they're done with the relationship? And can one person that wants to save the relationship is that all it takes, or do you really need both?

Christie Bemis: 24:44

I think if you would have asked me that earlier in my career, I would have been like, it just takes one person. I don't believe that anymore. If you want to be in relationship, you need to be self-reflective. However, the leverage to get the one person who's not ready or doesn't feel like they're gonna change or need to change can be a lot of things. Finances, children, keeping the family together. If there's leverage in there for the person that's least reflective, least resistant, that's enough to work with. Like, okay, you say, you say you want to keep your family together. You say it's frustrating to think about dividing your finances in half. Let's  start with that. And let's see if that much, that little bit of leverage can kind of bring in a little bit more of a commitment and self-reflection for you.

Karen Covy: 25:41

And that's the point I want to get to, the if not, because how do you use the leverage that you might have with your partner to save your marriage without making it sound like it's an ultimatum? Like if you don't do this, I'm done, I'm out of here, I'm divorced. I mean, because that doesn't feel really good. And that in and of itself will like discourage certain people from doing the work because they don't want to feel like they're being forced. You know what I mean?

Christie Bemis: 26:18

Yeah. I think that the only way to get what I want or desire in a relationship is to be willing to rock the boat a bit. So there can be invitations, requests, and ultimatums. Invitations are, hey honey, I you haven't been to a work uh you know, uh celebration with me in a couple of years. And I know it's not your favorite thing to do, but I'd love for you to come if you'd like to come. And if you don't, I'm totally fine with that. That's an invitation. They don't come, no harm, no follow, no resentment. A request is you haven't been for a couple of years, it's impacting how I feel about us. I know it's not your favorite thing to do, but I would love for you to join me. That's a request. Like it's gonna negatively impact our relationship if this doesn't happen. Is that what you want? But there is a time and place for ultimatums. But an ultimatum doesn't have to be and divorce. It can be, and you know that that that intimacy you seek and that connection you seek with me, it's not gonna be there if you don't fix this about you. I get you have social anxiety and you don't like to show up to my work things. I'm gonna ask that you fix this because it's really impacting the level of intimacy you say you want with me. And so it's an ultimatum. So ultimatums can be divorced, certainly. I don't have to stay, I don't have to stay in a relationship where I'm feeling, you know, kidnapped and like at the peril of my personal safety and my personal like well-being. I don't have to stay in that relationship, right? And so there's a time and place, and what I see couples do is they do invitations, they keep it too light, even though it's gonna impact their relationship, or they go heavy-handed all the time. So they overuse ultimatums. There's a whole middle ground in there called request, which is really letting your partner know the impact it might have.

Karen Covy: 28:25

But how do you keep in that scenario that you just uh described, how do you keep from weaponizing something? In other words, you know your partner wants more intimacy and you want them to show up with you socially, how do you not say, make it, well, if you don't show up to my work affairs, you know, I'm not gonna be intimate with you, right? That doesn't seem, doesn't sound like it would be helpful. It feels controlling. it feels very controlling. So, and that might or might not be your intention, but let's assume that it's not. How would you present things in a way that isn't controlling?

Christie Bemis: 29:08

Yeah, I know my adaptive child would say it that way, like come or else, weaponize, control. But my wise adult would probably say it another way. If this is a definite no, what do you need from me to make it even just a maybe to show up to work things? Maybe I could get curious with my partner and find out, oh, when I tell that one story about you every time we socialize, uh, it embarrasses you. I didn't know that. That's why you're not showing up to things. So I think it's more of a conversation of let's get curious. Tell me why there's so much resistance in you coming to this work. And today we're talking about the work thing, but it could be anything, right? And so I think couples move too quickly to the adaptive child losing strategies and they don't hang out in curiosity enough with each other.

Karen Covy: 30:06

I love that. And I want to go back to something else that you said in the invitation phase, where it's like, hey, honey, would you like to do this, do this with me? And if not, that's okay. And then if they say if they don't do it, you don't have resentment. The other thing that I see is so many people who they keep things light as an invitation, but then if their partner doesn't do the thing, whatever the thing is, they're angry, they're upset. In other words, they weren't really being honest with how they were presenting things. How can you deal with that kind of situation for yourself? Like you're the person who's not um presenting things in a way that's really honest about where you're at.

Christie Bemis: 30:54

Yeah, I think it's a place coming to relationship from a place of boundarylessness where a lot of people just don't know what their boundaries are. They don't know even what they want or what they need. And so I think that's the work of the individual who's showing up maybe a little boundaryless of like, um, I'm feeling this resentment. Generally speaking, when people are feeling a buildup of resentment, they've  not shored up some of their boundaries or they've not uh truly tapped into themselves to understand what they want and need. So I work with um mostly women on that, truth be told, of like uh checking in with themselves, understanding what they want and need, because a lot of women have been socialized to believe that when my partner's happy, I'm happy then. And they haven't really tapped into what makes me happy, though. And I know that's a generalization. There's certainly men I've worked with too that have been uh boundaryless, but I think it's more typical of women that are socialized to like really caretake.

Karen Covy: 32:01

Yeah, I think I I agree with you. A lot of women, that's just the way that they're raised,  and socialize that you know everybody else comes first before you do, right? But that that sounds interesting. So if you're working with a couple, though, and let's say you see an issue with an in one of one of the two partners, whether it's a boundary issue with the woman, whether it's something else with the man, then do you break the couple apart and say, let me just work for a little bit with one person on this or the other person on that, even though you're there to work with them as a couple? Or do you have to send them to separate therapists?

Christie Bemis: 32:41

Yeah, sometimes it can be both it can be all of the above. Sometimes it can be, let me work with you on uh a menu choice of options of defining what you need and want. You might not have ever had the experience where you get to define that. So let's look at that. Or it could be working with the other partner of this person is boundaryless in the relationship. They're gonna start coming at you with boundaries. How can you receive them in a really loving way so that this is something that can make an impact? But sometimes I do that work in front of one another, where I'm turning to that person that's really needing the work, and I'm doing it in front of their partner so that they can see what is possible for them. When they would get curious, when they would hold space for their partner, like I'm holding space for their partner, they can do the same when they go back home. So a lot of times that work can be done right in front of right in front of the other partner.

Karen Covy: 33:48

So when people work with you and they do an intensive, can you if can you make progress even if they've already tried marriage counseling and it didn't work?

Christie Bemis: 33:59

Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's the short answer is yes. They might not have been in a place where they were ready to hear, whatever the work was. Um they might have been mismatched with the therapist. Um, they might have been mismatched with the modality the therapist was using. So yeah, I think uh I've had lots of couples come in where they've tried this before, and what they find is maybe now it's just clicking or this modality speaks to them, or maybe now they're feeling seen and heard for the first time in therapy.

Karen Covy: 34:38

So if couples, you know, if a couple comes to you and they're  struggling, what if you have to give one piece of advice that would help them? Um, what would you say? Like the person out there who's listening and saying, yeah, this sounds good, but I don't know if my partner will go, or I don't know if it's gonna work for me because I've tried blah, blah, blah, blah, blah before. How you know, what would you say to them to give them some hope, some insight into their situation?

Christie Bemis: 35:11

Uh I would say find your voice in that and lead from a place of deep empathy. Sometimes I'm even taking out when I'm really feeling it with my partner, I'm taking out a picture of him when he was like seven and that cutie pattootie little boy he was with the blonde hair. And I'm really tapping into, you know, the human part of my partner. And we lose that. We get to a dehumanized state in our relationship where we no longer can see that that human being underneath the layers that we've built up of resentment or walls or fights that have just gone on unresolved, you know, and we just feel like we feel like uh defeated and that there's just nothing left there. And so I would take out that picture sometimes with my partner Joe when I'm really feeling like that, because I feel like that too. I mean, I  live and swim in this water all the time, and I still have fights with my partner. Everybody does. But I can take out that picture and I can I can lead a little bit more with empathy and humanization of my partner and curiosity. You know, I know I've used that word a lot, but it's my favorite word. I actually have a painting in my in my dining room that I've done, and it's just all green, and then it just in little letters on the bottom has the word in gold curious. Because it's like, if I can remind myself to stay curious, I'm already winning the conversation for myself. And so I think that's the key is  how can you get curious again with your partner and not I know exactly what he's gonna say or exactly what you're saying.

Karen Covy: 37:10

I love that. And I love the idea of taking out the picture of them when they were young, right? Because everybody looks at a little kid or a baby and goes, oh, they're so cute, right? And that what I love about that is it's practical, it's tactical, and it can help start to make the shift in perspective that might give you an opening to make real changes.

Christie Bemis: 37:34

Yeah. This is a human being that started out this relationship with love. Just like me.

Karen Covy: 37:39

I love that. Christie, thank you so much for sharing everything that you've shared so far. You have been a fountain, uh, fountain of information. So if people want to learn more, if they want to take your Sparks assessment, if they want to work with you or find out more about what do you what you do, where's the best place for them to find you?

Christie Bemis: 37:59

Yeah, the best place is uh my name, www.Christiebemis.com, and you can find me there and reach out and take the assessment.

Karen Covy: 38:13

That's awesome. And for those of you out there who are watching, who are listening, if you've enjoyed this conversation as much as I have, do me a big favor give the episode a thumbs up, like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.