Episode Description - The Best of "Off the Fence" 2024
What if the most difficult conversations in life could not only give you answers but they could shine a light on a clear path forward?
This special episode brings together the best insights from our guests in 2024. You’ll hear about how to tackle complex relationship challenges like divorcing a narcissist, navigating sexless marriages, and implementing creative solutions like bird nesting for families in transition.
This is a curated mix of powerful interviews that address not just the legal and logistical aspects of these struggles but also the emotional and psychological hurdles that keep people stuck.
Through expert advice and deeply personal stories, you’ll hear practical strategies for managing high-conflict dynamics, understanding toxic relationship cycles, and finding healthier ways to communicate and co-parent. Whether it’s uncovering patterns of abuse, building boundaries, or learning how to use mediation to save time, money, and your sanity, these conversations are full of eye-opening moments that can change the way you approach tough decisions.
The episode is a roadmap for anyone looking to break free from old cycles and emerge stronger—legally, emotionally, and relationally. With topics ranging from gaslighting to financial transparency in divorce, you’ll come away with tools, insights, and even a bit of hope that even the hardest decisions can lead to unexpected transformation.
This is truly the BEST of Off the Fence 2024.
Show Notes
Episodes and Bios of the Guests in The Best of "Off the Fence" 2024
Episode 52: Tracy Malone - How to Divorce a Narcissist
About Tracy Malone
Tracy Malone is an International divorce coach, narcissist abuse survival coach, author, speaker, educator, victim, and surTHRIVER of narcissistic abuse. Tracy is also the author of Divorcing Your Narcissist: You Can't make This Shit up! And the founder of Narcissist Abuse Support.com.
Connect with Tracy Malone
You can connect with Tracy on LinkedIn at Tracy Malone and Facebook at Narcissist Abuse Support Group. You can follow Tracy on YouTube at Tracy Malone, Twitter at Tracy Malone and on Instagram at Tracy A Malone. You can find out more about Tracy’s work and find support with narcissist abuse on Tracy’s website Narcissist Abuse Support and buy her book Divorcing Your Narcissist: You Can’take This Shit Up!
Episode 51: Kathleen Brigham - Divorce Inside Out: Kathleen Brigham's Unique Bird-Nesting Life
About Kathleen Brigham
Kathleen Brigham graduated from Middlebury College and has a Master's from Columbia Teacher's College. She completed her divorce mediation certification from The Center for Mediation and Training. Kathleen created Brigham Advising after going through her own divorce and finding it difficult to map a productive path between tough talking lawyers, well-meaning therapists and supportive but uneasy friends and family. Kathleen’s advising is designed to be a catalyst to creating a personal divorce plan, with or without nesting, and to accelerate the path to resolution and peace.
Connect with Kathleen Brigham
You can learn more about Kathleen and her work on her website Brigham Learning. You can connect with Kathleen on LinkedIn at Kathleen Brigham, on Facebook at Brigham Learning and on Instagram at Brigham Learning. Kathleen’s book, co-written with her current husband, Chris Dugan, “The Nesting Experiment” is available on Amazon.
Episode 58: Michael Cohen - Creating Better Outcomes Through Divorce Mediation
About Michael Cohen
Michael is a former corporate executive who went through a litigated divorce and vowed to transition his career to divorce mediation as a result. He saw firsthand the impact of a litigated divorce on his own children, and he vowed to help other families get through a divorce in a more amicable way, with good co-parents, so the family could remain connected as a family, just in a different way. Michael has his CPA and is very adept at helping couples with the financial decisions they need to make during and after their divorce, but his passion is working with parents and helping them to divorce while building a strong co-parent relationship. Michael cares, is passionate about helping others, understands what they are going through, and is driven to help them divorce in a healthy way at a significantly lower cost than litigation.
Connect with Michael Cohen
You can connect with Michael on LinkedIn at Michael’s Mediation at Facebook at Michael’s Mediation and follow Michael on Instagram at Michaels’ Mediation. You can learn more about how divorce mediation services for you and your family visit Michael’s website at Michael’s Mediation.
Episode 90: Janelle Orion - When Love Isn't Enough: Options for Navigating a Sexless Marriage
About Janelle Orion
As an Ivy-League educated personal growth junkie, entrepreneur and pleasure activator, Janelle knows how to hold space--and the occasional butt plug--for others’ spiritual awakening. Catalysts for her becoming include plant medicines, polyamory and getting married and divorced “in love.” She has been to Burning Man nine times, all seven continents and now lives in the Goddess Temple. With her open heart and radical acceptance, she coaches people to feel wildly alive and gives you permission to live one step closer to your truth.
Connect with Janelle Orion
You can connect with Janelle on LinkedIn at Janelle Orion, on Facebook at Janelle Orion, follow Janelle on X at Feel Wildly Alive and on Instagram at Feel Wildly Alive. To find out more about Janelle’s work visit her website at Feel Wildly Alive and catch her podcast Permission to be Human.
Books referenced on the show:
The Art of Giving and Receiving by Betty Martin, D.C. Come as You Are by Emily Nagasaki, Ph. D.
Episode 54: Karen McMahon - How to Set Boundaries and Navigate High Conflict Divorce
About Karen McMahon
In the realm of divorce and relationship coaching, Karen emerges as a true luminary, specializing in the complex arena of high conflict divorce. With unwavering determination and a heart full of empathy, Karen's expertise shines brightest when guiding individuals through the tumultuous storms of high conflict situations. Her signature approach addresses the internal intricacies of intense emotions, fixed mindset and unconscious behaviors along with external complexities of legal approaches, financial awareness and co-parenting hurdles, ensuring that her clients emerge both victorious and transformed.
Connect with Karen McMahon
You can connect with Karen on her LinkedIn page at Karen McMahon on Facebook at Karen McMahon and her Facebook business page at Journey Beyond Divorce. You can find Karen on YouTube at Journey Beyond Divorce, follow Karen on Instagram at Journey_Beyond_Divorce
And learn more about Karen’s work on her website Journey Beyond Divorce. The best way to contact Karen is through Instagram or email her at [email protected].
Key Takeaways From The Best of Off the Fence 2024
- Tracy Malone shared insights on divorcing narcissists, explaining that narcissists go beyond just having grandiose self-importance - they manipulate, lie, and hurt others without empathy, often using children as weapons in divorce and engaging in cycles of idealization, devaluation, and discard.
- It's important to have clear financial and parenting goals when divorcing a narcissist. Common mistakes are thinking the narcissist will just go away if you give in, not planning for the future with kids, and not protecting yourself financially in the divorce decree.
- Kathleen Brigham discussed "bird nesting" in divorce, where children stay in one home while parents alternate living there. She implemented this to provide stability for her young children, though it required extensive coordination and schedule management.
- Unlike traditional arrangements, bird nesting keeps children in their familiar environment with all their belongings, avoiding the need to pack bags and move between homes. However, it requires significant organization and cooperation between parents.
- Michael Cohen emphasized that children are a couple's most valuable asset during divorce, not material possessions. He advocates for mediation to minimize the impact of divorce on children, as it allows parents to communicate better and resolve conflicts more amicably.
- Mediation was presented as a low-risk, cost-effective alternative to litigation, with Michael noting that clients can try it for a session or two without a large upfront retainer, and can stop at any time if it's not working.
- Janelle Orion shared her experience navigating a sexless marriage, emphasizing that the issue wasn't just about physical intimacy but about deeper communication, personal boundaries, and understanding one's own desires and needs.
- Janelle emphasizes the importance of understanding one's desires and feeling safe in one's body for sexual pleasure. She learned valuable lessons about herself during and after the divorce, viewing it as a growth opportunity.
- Karen McMahon discussed transforming from a difficult divorce involving anger management issues and custody battles into personal growth, emphasizing the importance of focusing on oneself rather than the spouse's behavior.
- The podcast highlighted that sexual issues in marriage often stem from broader communication problems and the difficulty in discussing vulnerable, intimate topics that may be tinged with shame or guilt.
- In high conflict relationships, the difficult spouse's behavior is obvious, but the other spouse often doesn't look at their own unhealthy behaviors and coping mechanisms. Karen helps them focus on themselves, set boundaries, and heal amidst the pain of divorce.
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Transcript
The Best of "Off The Fence" in 2024
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
divorcing narcissists, bird nesting, mediation, sexless marriage, boundaries
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Kathleen Brigham, Tracy Malone, Karen McMahon, Michael Cohen, Janelle Orion
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to the Off the Fence podcast. This is a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making to try to figure out what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how do we get unstuck. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur.
This is a very special episode of the Off the Fence podcast. It's hard to believe that we've been doing this for almost two years, but we have, and in this podcast, what you're going to get is the very best of the interviews that we've done in 2024. So you're going to get little snippets of interviews on how to divorce a narcissist, how to mediate your divorce, how to navigate a sexless marriage and how to do bird nesting, and so much more. So all of the full episodes will be linked below the video or below the audio in the show notes, wherever you happen to be listening or watching, and I really hope you enjoy this episode as much as I've enjoyed bringing it to you. Thank you for all of your support throughout the year. I really appreciate your watching, your listening and, most importantly, your subscribing and sharing. So, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
Right now we're going to hear from Tracy Malone, an international divorce coach. Narcissist abuse survival coach. Author, speaker, educator, victim and survivor of narcissistic abuse. And Tracy's going to talk about how to divorce a narcissist.
For those people who don't know you with your story. Why did you get into this particular area of work?
Tracy Malone Guest
01:57
Well, it wasn't an intentional like, hey, let me just go work with people being abused. Obviously, you can see the word above my head. I'm a survivor. I had a pretty horrific divorce and I started a support group after that and I needed it for me. I was like help me, bring people together. And you know, again accidental career and that grew to, you know, 60 people a month I was working with and again, I'm just there. But I wanted to teach them. I'm like we can't just come and whine, we have to heal. So I would teach them and grow and grow. And then I built my website, my YouTube, and the rest is history. My book is also, you know, on divorcing a narcissist, so it became sort of the platform that took me into the next level as well.
Karen Covy Host
02:48
So how did you? I want to like take us to very basics how did you know you were divorcing a narcissist per se? And maybe we start with what is a narcissist?
Tracy Malone Guest
03:02
Yeah Well, first of all I didn't know I was divorcing a narcissist. Through the entire year, seven trials, nobody not my therapist, not my lawyers, not the mediator, nobody ever said it. And so it was just called the most horrific, actually was the most contentious divorce in our town's history by the judge. I was like, well, that's an accomplishment. But no one said the word. So I didn't know. And I didn't know because I found out later, after I dated the next one and then learned I had really didn't know what it was because I grew up with narcissistic family members, both parents and siblings, so it was very familiar to me. Ghosting was our family vacation, right.
03:44
So let's get into what an actual definition of a narcissist is, because you know we have a thing called the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which tells us hey, if you're trying to diagnose someone, here's the things that define them right, and they're, in my opinion, they don't really reflect it. So it's sort of a grandiose self-sense of importance. They exaggerate their achievements. These are all minor little things. They believe they're special and they required extra admiration and validation and they have a sense of entitlement. That's not the truth. I mean, those happen, yes, but they manipulate people, they lie, they steal, they hurt people, they gaslight people endlessly. They charm as the first weapon to kind of get people into their life, but in the end they are really destroying people's lives for their own gain. They don't care who they step on, who they hurt, Hhw many years you've been married.
04:45
I've had a client that was married for 50 years and you would think after 50 years, just give her the money and have a nice day. No, it's still a four-year battle and over $4 million and like again, a normal person would be like okay, we don't get along anymore, let's just here's your half, here's my half have a nice life. Right, it is a battle, it is a war. And if you've got children, unfortunately they use the children as weapons, without any like empathy for what they're doing. They just want to get you. The revenge just sits into their heart and they are evil. Evil is a very good word for them. I like that better than the DSM-5 things.
Karen Covy Host
05:27
Well, I know that one of the hallmark characteristics of narcissists is that lack of empathy right, but all the things you described can also describe a lot of people going through a divorce. So how do you differentiate between somebody who's going through a divorce and is just angry and like does that make them a narcissist, you know, versus someone who really rises to that level that it sounds like you're describing of what's a narcissist? How does someone know if their spouse is really a narcissist or it's just, you know, they're angry and upset about the divorce and so they're not being their best self?
Tracy Malone Guest
06:08
Right. And again, you're absolutely right. You know, divorce makes people get defensive and fight for things and this is common behavior to expect it right. It's when they've been doing it all along, when they've had four different wives at the same time, when they've got four different girlfriends at the same time, when they are, you know, manipulating and hiding money, like this 50-year guy even hiding money for 30 years, like just secret accounts and this, and that it's not just in the divorce. This has been consistent, this abuse. And you know, putting people down and making them feel like they can never do enough and you try harder. That's how they get the victims to do more. This has been their life. Their legacy is they just can't do anything. Right, they do it all. I'll give you that, they'll give 99.9% of everything and it's still not enough.
06:58
And then there's the cycle of abuse which is sort of idealized, devalue, discard. So the idealized in the beginning of your relationship. It's like love bombing. Everyone hears that word all the time, right, but that cycle continues through the relationship. It's when they're in the nice mood. I call it right. You have times where, oh my God, they're nice. We had a good Christmas. Oh, that was great. Normally they've been all holidays, but that's another story. But, um, you know, there's these periods where that's the person I love, that's the one I fell in love with, and we can excuse away all the bad behavior. They're having a bad week, they're, they're hangry, they're, they're angry, they're hungry, they didn't get the promotion, they're so sad. So therefore, it's okay to abuse someone, right, that's the difference is it's not just during the divorce. This has been happening and the victims have been tolerating it and then almost dangling, that nice guy, nice girl person going. Okay, I'll hold out for them, I can excuse all these bad things. And then it reaches a point where you go, it's never stopping.
Karen Covy Host
07:59
Yeah. So I'd like to dive into that a little bit more too, because it sounds like what you're describing is that there is. It's not an isolated incident. There's a pattern of behavior that happens over and over and over again, and let's get into that. You said the first part of that pattern, the first step in the cycle, is the love bombing, the. You know the adoration, the nice person, the whatever. Say more about that. And I know you know, because I've worked in this area myself too. That's the point where they suck people in. That's where they hook their potential partner, spouse, what have you? But what comes after that charming, sweet, nice person? What's the next step in the cycle?
Tracy Malone Guest
08:46
The next step is the devalue stage. And again, this is not only in the beginning but over and over. So when they get the nice guy, then all of a sudden you loaded the dishwasher wrong, you did that wrong. Pick, pick, pick, pick right. They're starting to devalue you. Why did you make that decision? That was dumb. You know, sort of little tiny pokes through the nice guy, nice girl, act, right. All of a sudden you can't do anything right. That's the devalue. They put people down.
09:13
Some of them are verbal and really, you know, tell people terrible things about them. Others are covert. They're a little bit more passive, aggressive in this stage where it's subtle. So you can't say they hit you, they punched you, they did this. But you know it's ongoing, it's making you feel small, it's controlling you, it's not letting you see your friends, it's not letting you see your family, it's not letting you see male friends. If you're the female, don't ever see your male friends. It's control comes into that devaluing stage. You're doing it wrong, let's fix this right. So that comes into that devalue stage and it's a dangerous part.
Karen Covy Host
09:52
Yeah, it seems like it would be hard to pick up on, especially if you're in the stage where you love someone and it would be confusing but you don't know what to do with it, right?
Tracy Malone Guest
10:08
And also, they select victims, targets we call us. Supply is another word. They select them based on what kind of supply they will be. They look for a certain kind of person that is often codependent. So they're people pleasing. They'll take on the guilt and the shame going oh you're right, I should have tried harder, they'll. If they get yelled at by the narcissist, they will internalize it because perhaps they've had abuse in their past and it's normal, right, just like for me. I was like oh okay, ghosting, it's my family vacation, they'll be back, right, that's because I was groomed that way. So they hear your story. They, you know, not recognizing the devalue stage because again it could be subtle, it's just okay, you did the dishwasher wrong, you didn't do this right. Why'd you do that? What money are you spending? Little tiny things that are normal relationship conversations, but they're really designed to make you feel horrible and to take away that power, so that you're fighting for that good person to come back.
Karen Covy Host
11:28
Right, you want the person you married, right, try harder, yeah. So, after that devalue stage, which at that point the other person in the relationship has got to feel pretty awful, right After that, what's the next stage in the cycle?
Tracy Malone Guest
11:45
the last stage is the discard, is what it's called, but it doesn't mean like I'm getting a divorce goodbye. That's the final discard, of course. But the other discard things are the silent treatment, the pouting, the, the. You know I'll get you the anger, the fighting, the throwing things, the know, the hitting if that comes into it right. So there's lots of things that can happen in that discard stage. But again, what happens with the codependent, empathic, people-pleasing people that they're doing this to? We feel terrible. We try harder. What did I do wrong? How can I get them back? What can I do? I don't want them to leave right. And so the cycle begins as soon as we turn around and stop being angry that they're doing this and start to go.
12:32
Oh, but, I, want them back, I'll try harder. I'll try harder. That goes into love bombing Now that they've won and they get us back into this lovely, nice, calm. The person you married and then it starts again.
Karen Covy Host
12:48
It just keeps going around and around. So you mentioned a term that I'd like to a little explanation for our listeners on, and that is gaslighting. What exactly is gaslighting? Because I know it's something narcissists do all the time. What is it?
Tracy Malone Guest
13:04
Well, a lot of people think it's a lie, but narcissists are famous for lying. It's not really a lie. It is a lie with the intent to confuse you, to distort reality and to make you feel like you've done something wrong. So you know, in divorce, I have a whole chapter in my book on how narcissists use gaslighting in a divorce so they can start this gaslighting all along. If you start to talk about the divorce, there's no money. You'll get nothing. If you divorce me, you know I'm the breadwinner. You'll move out of this house. You'll never get the kids. You know.
13:38
Just these sort of things come and that's gaslighting. That's where they are trying to scare you with this lie into staying. Well, if I'm not going to get any money, I have no choice. I was the stay-at-home mom. I don't have the means to do this and they're going to take my kids away. That's part of the okay. I've got to fight back and they hook you back because, you see, the gaslighting is convincing you, you have no other alternatives but to stay and acquiesce to this kind of abuse.
Karen Covy Host
14:17
Yeah, so how do people identify, gaslighting or deal with it and get out of it Because you really believe the nonsense that you're being fed, right? So what would you say to somebody who is believing the BS, so to speak? How do you, how do you break the cycle?
Tracy Malone Guest
14:32
Well, you break it with the truth, right, you? You, you force them to sit there and go. Well, is that true? And are you a bad mom or you know? Have you stolen money? You know, giving them the truth in the money arena in a divorce is that's not true. You have a right to it. You've been married 30 years. You have a right to this. You've been married this long. You have a right to that and you know. All of these lies in the gaslighting arena can easily just go up in a puff of smoke because there's no truth behind them. They're so worried and they internalize I did something bad. They feel guilt.
Karen Covy Host
15:08
Now we're going to hear from Kathleen Brigham. Kathleen is a mediator and the creator of Brigham Advising and, after going through her own divorce and finding it difficult to map a productive path between tough talking lawyers, well-meaning therapists and supportive but uneasy friends and family, Kathleen’s advising is designed to be a catalyst to creating a personal divorce plan, with or without nesting, and to accelerate the path to resolution and peace. And Kathy is going to talk about bird nesting.
I am excited to have you because you and your husband, when you went through your divorce, did something a little bit no, a lot of bit unusual right, and this is something that the divorce professionals we talk about in our world, but most people don't do it and that's something called bird nesting. So if you could, just to start explain to the listeners what is nesting or bird nesting, what does it mean and why did you do it?
Kathleen Brigham Guest
16:10
Okay. So yes, a lot of people refer to it as bird nesting Now the term, sort of dropping the bird and going over to nesting but essentially what it means is that the children of the couple that is going through the separation or divorce stay in one place. They stay in one home and the exes or soon to be exes come and go, and that can look very different. It can be a house that's owned by one and the other comes and goes. It might be a joint home, but the basic premise behind it is that the children are not moving from home to home, right from their dads to their moms and back and forth, but that they have this solid, stable home and that exes are figuring out what that's all about and how they're going to share that space.
Karen Covy Host
17:00
Okay, so this immediately brings up a host of questions for me. So, if I'm understanding this right, let's say that we're talking about a couple that's just starting a divorce process, right? So they've all lived in one home together, and so the idea is that home becomes the children's home and the husband and wife go in and out on a set schedule. Is that right?
Kathleen Brigham Guest
17:25
That is right, and you're right that usually they have a home, right, that you have a family unit mother, father, children usually and so when they're going through that separation you figure out who's going to keep that home and that's a whole nother conversation. But that is the place where the children are going to stay.
Karen Covy Host
17:47
So when the spouses are going in and out of this home the children's home when they're not in the children's home, where are they? Do they each have their own apartments? Do you have one apartment and share that so you're always in shared space? How does that work?
Kathleen Brigham Guest
18:04
Really good question. What I would say is there's a whole spectrum here of how sort of many people's view, how crazy this can get right. So I'm just going to give you my example and then we can. I'll throw in some others examples of people that I've worked with.
18:19
So my example is that I had the home and my soon-to-be ex found his own small apartment. Now, at the time we were in New York City pretty pricey real estate, so this can often be a financial decision. There was no way that we're both going to have three four-bedroom apartments or something like that. So he got a smaller apartment and that was his. When I left on my not children’s nights I did not go to his apartment. Okay, I went and we can talk about where I went and it was sometimes, you know, difficult or with a friend or different things, but I was not going to go live, you know, in his apartment. I will tell you there are situations where the soon to be-be exes decide on sort of a shared apartment and they do that. That was extreme for me. I did not want to do that. I was willing to leave the home and let my ex-husband come in and be with the children, but when I left, I decided where I wanted to go.
Karen Covy Host
19:21
So it sounds like what you did was you would stay with friends or family or like, so you never really had your own space.
Kathleen Brigham Guest
19:30
Yeah, so it was tricky in the beginning because you know you do it's like can you carry your suitcase to your friends or your sisters. I was really fortunate to have access to a New York city apartment through some very nice people that they were not using so I could go there. So I kind of did have that place, but it took all different and I moved around quite a bit. We didn't stay in the city the whole time and I eventually moved to the suburbs. But the point is it can be tricky, right? I think the whole premise of this bird nesting is it is uncomfortable; it is going to be uncomfortable.
Karen Covy Host
20:07
And why. Why is it that you made that decision? Because you could have, also if your husband had his own little apartment. I mean, you could have also made the more traditional, typical choice of you stay on the home with the kids and then, when he's got them on his parenting time, either they go somewhere else or they all camp in the living room or they, you know, like whatever that looks like, that they're with him, when they're with him and they're with you and they're with you. Why make the choice that you made?
Kathleen Brigham Guest
20:38
So when I was going through this, my children were quite young. Okay, the youngest was four and I have three children altogether, so they were between the sort of the ages of four and 12 and 13. And what I was seeing is that this was chaos. I mean, just having a family at this time, right, how many different activities do you have? Where's the homework, where you know, where's the soccer uniform, all this kind of thing. And, to be perfectly honest, it was a way of me keeping some control. I knew that if they were in this home everything was there, they weren't going to forget their homework when they went to their dad's. Their dad wasn't going to know, you know, not know where the soccer uniform was, things like that.
21:21
So initially I sort of had this gut feeling that I want to keep these kids in a very comfortable and safe and stable environment. So that's where it stemmed, it really did stem from. I had had friends that had been going, you know, had gone through a divorce. I had seen sort of the sad little suitcases being packed and going down the street and I just really didn't want that. And, I'll be honest, it was a way of protecting and we can talk about whether or not that's always a good thing or not, but it was a way of protecting my children from really kind of always understanding exactly what was going on. Oh, mom's here, dad's here, but I'm still here. I still have my toys and my stuffed animal. My friend can come over and I know that schedule. It's not like are you your dad's tonight? Are you your mom's? We could have play dates, we could organize all of this and it was all in one place.
Karen Covy Host
22:24
But that still takes organization right. So you must have had some sort of a family calendar because, for example, if you're organizing that play date for tomorrow but you're not the parent that's going to be there tomorrow, you've got to make sure that your spouse knows that he's okay with it, that he knows what his responsibilities are, what he's walking into when he's walking in the door and what you're walking out at. Like there's still a lot of coordination. I would think
Kathleen Brigham Guest
22:45
An enormous amount of coordination. But if you think about it, there's even more coordination. If I'm the one saying, hey, tomorrow night is dad's night, get your bag packed, where's your uniform, where are your ballet shoes, things like that, that also takes an enormous amount of coordination and I think a lot of this. People would say, wow, you're really a pushover or you're really doing a lot for your ex-husband. I don't really understand it and I kept saying I'm not. I'm actually just doing a lot for my kids. I really am just keeping them focused.
23:17
I have a shared Google calendar. I would literally leave a very long text for my ex saying, hey, this is what homework, this kind of thing here's, here's the night unfolding. I'm out. I wouldn't always have conversations. I don't think you need to get on the phone and do that. It could be a shared Google calendar. It could be just a whiteboard with. Here are the things, the highlights of the night, whatever it is. But the truth of the matter is in a divorce normally it's not equal right. There's usually one who is doing the caretaking more than the other, and no matter if you're living together or living apart or moving the kids back and forth from two homes. There's someone who has to be the coordinator, and that was me.
Karen Covy Host
24:03
Yeah, so tell me about, if you don't mind sharing, what was your schedule Like. How many nights a week were you in the house? How many nights a week was he in the house?
Kathleen Brigham Guest
24:11
Yeah, Good question. So in a traditional divorce you often get the Wednesday night and then the every other weekend sort of situation. Our kids were really, really young, as I had mentioned, so I suggested to our mediator that we have the Wednesday night, but that in the very beginning we do, we split the, we even split the weekends. So Friday night with dad, Saturday night with mom, the next weekend, Friday night with mom, Saturday night with dad. It gets tricky and you know, I'm not sure that that was really necessary maybe, but I thought at the time they were so young that a weekend was a really long time away from a parent. So that's just what we did for a while and then it morphed into the every other weekend.
24:58
But if you can just imagine a Wednesday and I had a much more flexible work schedule at the time, so I was the one sort of doing the school pickup and things like that so I would get them in place on a Wednesday, get them started on their homework. For a while we had a shared babysitter and I think this was a real, real saving moment for me. I would have that babysitter stick around for that transition time, that 15, 20 minutes, and I'd head out, I'd say goodbye to the kids, they're all set. I'd give our sitter sort of the plans and then I would leave because I, you know look, I'm not a robot I didn't need to have that interaction every time he, you know, was coming into my house. So there are things that I set up to make it a little easier on myself. And I would do the same for the times where he came in on the weekends.
25:53
And let's just be clear, because people always say this like where is this person sleeping? This sounds crazy. No, he's not. I'm not coming into my bedroom, he's not sleeping in my bed, he's downstairs with the kids, honestly camping out with them most of the time. My husband, my current husband, did the same with his family, which is when we met with such an interesting point of connection for us, and they had like a guest, you know, sort of room down in the basement, so he would go into his ex-wife's home and be in the basement. So they're all sort of different versions.
Karen Covy Host
26:27
Okay, this is wild, that you were bird nesting and you met another guy who was bird nesting and the two of you. So how in the name of heaven did you coordinate two families schedules?
Kathleen Brigham Guest
26:42
like this, yeah, insane. And this is where the book came from, because the two of us sat down finally and said we have to write about this experience of what we did Because, you know, my husband, Chris, is coordinating with his four children and his ex-wife. I'm coordinating with my ex-husband
Karen Covy Host
27:03
In the next segment, we're going to talk with Michael Cohen. Michael is a former corporate executive who went through a litigated divorce and vowed to transition his career to divorce mediation. As a result, Michael has his CPA and is very adept at helping couples with the financial decisions that they need to make during and after their divorce, but his passion is working with parents and helping them to divorce while building a strong co-parenting relationship. I think you're really going to enjoy this next segment with Michael Cohen.
What would you expect? Or counsel for co-parents, for people who are coming to divorce? They've got kids, they're thinking of mediating. What would you say to them?
Michael Cohen Guest
27:47
Well, a lot of people come to mediation and they think their most valuable assets are their house, their retirement accounts, et cetera. But their most valuable asset is their children, and how they divorce is how their children are affected by divorce. I've seen it. One of my daughter was alienated from me. My boys are great, but they both went through a hard time in the middle of a divorce and I've got a lot of life stories that I talk about and how that has affected them and how it has put the stress of my prior marriage and divorce on them and it breaks my heart that they have to deal with that.
28:26
So when I talk to parents, I really focus on how do they minimize the impact of divorce on their children. So children are divorced right. When you go through a divorce, it changes a child's perspective, but if parents can do it in a way that's emotionally healthy for their children, it doesn't have to what I would say change their life arc. It doesn't have to change their development, their growth as a person. Yes, their story has changed, but they could still grow up to love their parents, feel loved by a family and feel supported by a family, and that gives children confidence and it allows them to be successful.
29:02
When parents are going through a litigated divorce, it takes a long time, there's a lot of contention, the parents aren't talking to each other because their lawyers generally say don't talk to each other about the divorce. So the kids feel it. And kids are so smart Not only do they see things, they hear things and they feel emotions. Kids go through that and they're affected. So my goal is to try to get them to get to an amicable decision quicker, while talking to each other and learning how to communicate with each other, so that their kids not only hear them say they both love them, but they feel that and they trust that.
Karen Covy Host
29:46
So what would you say to the divorcing couple? They come and they're not totally sold on mediation, but they've heard it's a way to save time and money. So they're sitting in front of you or maybe they're deciding whether to sit in front of you and they say look, we can't even agree on what time of day it is. How are we going to mediate?
Michael Cohen Guest
30:09
Yeah, it's really interesting, like if you could picture whoever we're talking to your listeners right now. They're in a situation where they have conflict with somebody. That conflict is high, it's real. It's very abrasive. Sometimes you introduce a third party into the conversation and all of a sudden they're watching their P's and Q's a little bit and they're both explaining their logic a little different and that person in the middle now is translating what one person is saying so that the other person could hear it and the temperature comes down. So I've seen people who have contention. When you introduce a third party who's unbiased and will reframe the conversation and help them listen to each other, it really brings the temperature down and it does work. It's not easy. Some clients are easier than others but it can get done and the third party, who's a neutral facilitator, does a tremendous job to get the conversation going.
Karen Covy Host
31:07
So it sounds like what you're saying is that just by having another person in the room sitting there and listening to the conversation, the conversation changes. Am I getting that?
Michael Cohen Guest
31:18
Absolutely, absolutely. It's like a buffer, like the mediator becomes the buffer. The mediator has to have thick skin, has to have patience, because they absorb the hits right. Sometimes it takes a session or two before the clients get to a point where they start to listen and work together as a unit. But in the meantime, the mediator has to take the stress, absorb it and kind of spit out something that's more amicable so that the conversation can be productive.
Karen Covy Host
31:48
A question that I have gotten a lot of times from my listeners and my readers is how do I know if mediation is going to work for me? How do I know if I even invest in mediation? What would you say to that? How can somebody tell? Because there are some cases where it's just not appropriate for mediation. How can you, as a person who's not familiar with the system, who's not familiar with mediation, how do you know if your case is an appropriate case for mediation or not?
Michael Cohen Guest
32:21
Good question. So, like, at a bare minimum, both spouses have to agree to mediate, so you can't force mediation on somebody. So what I do is have consultations with each spouse, make sure they both understand the process, make sure they understand they could have their questions answered. But what I tell them both ultimately is there's really no risk to trying to mediate. Most lawyers will charge a retainer and that retainer isn't refundable and it's pretty sizable and both parties need a lawyer. So let's call it three to $5,000 each. You're in for six to $10,000. Before anything happens you have to replenish it. You'll probably have to replenish it at least once before you even see any progress. So you're in a lot of money and you're committed.
33:06
When you mediate and I'm talking for myself I don't charge a retainer. I know a lot of mediators don't charge a retainer, but it's a pay as you go and you could stop at any time. So what I always encourage people to do is invest an hour or two, a session or two, and see how it goes. If it's not working right, you could stop. You've wasted very little time, you've wasted very little money and if you stay long enough and make some agreements, you can actually take those agreements forward to your lawyer and benefit from them and not relitigate them. So it's a very low risk time in terms of time and money endeavor and I always encourage people to try it, because mediation is the healthiest way for families, it's the most economical way for the marital assets and it's just the healthiest way to divorce. And it's not often that you could spend the least amount of money in the healthiest way and get the best product, so it's worth trying.
Karen Covy Host
34:07
Well, what if you get into the situation where people say you know, my spouse is hiding money. You know, is that if someone really believes that their spouse is hiding money, is that a case that you can mediate or not?
Michael Cohen Guest
34:25
It's a really good question and I have a client right now who's asking me those questions. One of the caveats with mediation is both parties have to be transparent. Now I have a CPA so I do a lot of tick and tying around the documents and the financials that they present, but that's not foolproof. So if somebody has a separate account, there's really no way for me to know that without doing some work. Now you could bring in a forensic accountant, but that's very costly. There are some guides that are out there that each individual could look at to try to do before they start the process, but I mean mediators might think differently.
35:03
I generally tell people if there's lack of trust you might need more of a legal representation to get records and to dig deeper. But I'd like to give it a try. I know the questions to ask during the financial review and sometimes that surfaces things that people might have just made a mistake and haven't mentioned. If there's truly deceit going on, that's hard I don't know. Do you have a different opinion on that? I know you've got some experience as well.
Karen Covy Host
35:33
Oh, just a little bit, but yeah it. Mediation only works if people are going to come to the table and be transparent. However, there are ways, like you said, that you can. There are questions that you can ask when you've been around the block a time or 500. And you know you can. You can start to suss out information and see are both parties providing accurate information?
36:01
And sometimes, honestly, sometimes, people forget. It's like oh yeah, I had that you know retirement count from account from when I was at this job, like 20 years ago, and I haven't like. People legitimately forget things sometimes and then they not legitimately forget things other times. So it's about figuring out what boat that you're in and that's one of the factors that you've got to, you know, think about when you're choosing mediation. But I have a question for you, though. I mean, people think of okay, mediation is an alternative to litigation. I'm going to go to the mediator first and then, if it doesn't work, we have to litigate. But what happens? I mean, is it possible for a couple to start in litigation so that they've got the benefit of a court-ordered discovery process? They can issue subpoenas, they can get the information they're missing and then, once they have what they believe to be full financial information, can they then go to mediation?
Michael Cohen Guest
37:06
They can, and certainly in Illinois and in most states, you're required to mediate your parenting section. So for certain, while you're litigating, no judge is going to want to make decisions for your family. They're going to want you to try it so that part can come out and be mediated, and it should be. As far as the financial aspects they certainly can. I think emotions change as you go through a divorce process, and originally, I think everybody knows, you just file and hire a lawyer and you go down the path and then you start paying the bills and then you start realizing I'm spending a lot of money and we're not making any progress and God, we just want to get this over with and we know what's fair. You could certainly take that out of the lawyer's hands, come to a mediator and resolve that, and then the mediator would provide your lawyer with an MOU that they could then use and leverage to finalize your divorce.
Karen Covy Host
37:58
What is an MOU?
Michael Cohen Guest
38:00
Oh, sorry, I thought I was talking to you.
Karen Covy Host
38:02
Yeah, you are talking to me, but everybody else might not understand.
Michael Cohen Guest
38:06
So an MOU is the product that a mediator provides the couple. It's called a memorandum of understanding. It basically summarizes what the couple agreed to. It's not binding until it's filed in court and approved by a judge, but it provides a basis for a lawyer to draft the final papers and get you in front of a judge.
Karen Covy Host
38:26
Now we're going to hear from Janelle Orion. Janelle is an Ivy League educated, personal growth junkie, entrepreneur and pleasure activator. With her open heart and radical acceptance, Janelle coaches people to feel wildly alive and gives you permission to live one step closer to your truth. And in this segment, we're going to talk about how to navigate a sexless marriage.
Janelle Orion Guest
38:53
What happened was, you know, we have this idea of like okay, well, I had this idea we're going to get married and we're adults and we can communicate and we can problem solve and we're smart and we're creative, and so whatever problems we have, we're going to be able to solve. But then, shortly after we got married, my husband just stopped desiring to have sex with me.
Karen Covy Host
Why?
Janelle Orion Guest
That's the question, Karen, that ultimately, I don't know that we'll ever have a full answer to, but ultimately it was.
39:28
This is what's here, and how do we figure this out? How do we try to fix, if you will, this part of our relationship? Right, cause we still were in love and had fun and traveled and do all these things, um, but it was hard, it was confusing, there was shame, there was hurt, we didn't neither one of us understood what was going on, um, so we tried everything we could to figure out how to resolve that and so, starting with talk therapy, and then we both got introduced to tantra and did a deep dive into personal growth and learning skills around pleasure and intimacy and like asking ourselves questions like what is it that I want versus what society has told me that I want.
Karen Covy Host
40:14
You know that's so important because, all right, first of all I want to thank you for coming on the podcast and talking about this, because so many people have issues around sex. For so many couples sex, you know, maybe it starts out great and maybe not right in the beginning of the marriage, you know, but ultimately it tapers off at some point, usually after they have kids, usually after they're tired, and sex becomes this big elephant in the room or in the relationship, rather, and because there's guilt, because there's shame, no one wants to talk about it, no one knows how to talk about it and no one certainly knows what to do about it. So, you know, you said you started with talk therapy. How did you find a therapist? Is it just? Did you go to a regular talk therapist or did you have to find a sex therapist? Or like, if someone's got this problem? what do they do?
Janelle Orion Guest
41:12
Well, I'll say one of the things that we did was because, I mentioned, we converted from monogamy when we first met, as we were dating, into a non-monogamous relationship. Um, we had a sex therapist right, someone who was open to non-traditional relationship types, and we had had that when things were fine, but at the tool in our toolbox because we knew for both of us that we were swimming in waters that were new for us, that we were expanding ourselves, but we were also playing with our edges, and so this is one of the ways that my husband was very smart. He's like we should just like what are the resources we have available to us to help us navigate this.
Karen Covy Host
41:54
Well, wow, that is a really great idea. But all right, now I have to ask you and I apologize if this is an inappropriate question, but I would think, as somebody who is not polyamorous, I mean very, very traditional marriage for myself and my husband. That's our choice. But you know, a lot of people are probably wondering okay, you could have sex with anybody you wanted. You are polyamorous. What difference did it make that you and your husband weren't having sex?
Janelle Orion Guest
42:24
That's a great question. Actually, I'm so glad that you're asking it because that was part of my journey. I didn't understand why that was the case, and part of it was that I wasn't having actually a ton of sex. I didn't really. I was having some, but I was so engrossed in trying to understand what was happening to our relationship that I wasn't like, oh, let me go and figure out another relationship someone else could have no problem. We did, and I did try to say okay for a long time, I'm just not going to have sex with my primary partner, my husband. I can have other relationships, but ultimately what ended up happening is I found my truth, which was that I wanted to be having sex with my primary partner how did you find that truth?
Karen Covy Host
43:16
How did that realization come to you?
Janelle Orion Guest
43:22
It was. It was a long journey, it was over the many years and it the journey was a painful one. And when I say, like, coming home to myself, it's not an easy journey for people, for anyone to like look in the mirror and say, okay, what is it that I want, what I've been taught, what am I where? And what I came to realize was that I was honoring my husband's boundaries, but I was actually crossing my own, because but I didn't even know what my boundary was Like. I didn't know that wanting to have sex with a primary partner was my boundary, until I finally, after retreats and reading and therapy and dark nights of the soul, that I was like, oh, this is what I want and it's not here, and so the repercussion of standing in my truth meant we need to talk about divorce.
Karen Covy Host
44:17
Well, I assume that before you got to that point, you tried a lot of things. I mean, and I also assume, because it seems like you're a very sexual being, as we all are, but a lot of people don't express it that well Um, you must've been having sex with them before you were married.
Janelle Orion Guest
44:38
Yes, what I know. I'm confused. So I think the example or I'm just an example of the complexity of being human and of being in relationships, right, we all have things that we bring into a relationship and there's stuff that some of us we don't ever figure out. And there's we can do hard things, as a podcast with Glennon Doyle and her sister mentioned on this podcast that you know, there's an assumption that it's men who want the sex and women who don't, and that's like the thing, the meme in our culture. And so there's an added shame when it's the woman who wants sex and the man doesn't, because then it feels like, oh, there's now there's doubly something wrong with me because I want it, so that possibly makes me bad, shameful, something woman doing something she shouldn't, and yet why? And then he doesn't want me, so something must be wrong with me, right?
45:44
So these are all things that I was having to navigate and figure out on my own, like or not on my own, but that's my own journey, to be like, oh, nothing's actually wrong with me. But I'll also say, yes, a sexual being, but I am, I have become much more sexual and like, radiant and embodied in my sexuality as a result of this journey. I mentioned that I was taking courses on pleasure and Tantra and intimacy, so I actually learned where was I actually not expressing my desires, where was I being out of consent and out of alignment with my desires, and then speaking, and then my actions, actions. I feel that there are so many just basic skills in the areas of pleasure, intimacy and consent that we are not taught. But we could be taught, starting in high school for like basic relating and that's what I learned.
Karen Covy Host
46:51
I was wondering that, as you were talking, it was occurring to me like do the skills that you learned in the area of pleasure and intimacy? Will those skills transfer into just talking to your spouse or being in a relationship and having boundaries? Is there a transference of these skills?
Janelle Orion Guest
47:15
Yes, 100%. In fact, I would say, like sex is actually just the byproduct, like it's almost not the thing, right? The thing is, how do we talk about something that's vulnerable, that's intimate, that may be tinged with guilt or shame or confusion, something that can activate us into anger, frustration, tears and hurt? Just how do you have a conversation about those things? Because oftentimes, having the conversation is what can cause a greater disconnection, because someone's not feeling heard or not feeling seen.
Karen Covy Host
47:54
So how do you do that? Because you have just like honed right in on the problem that so many people have. And you're right, it's not the sex is almost a symptom of the problem. The problem comes down to communication, but communication about an issue that's so close to home and so sensitive that that makes it even more challenging. So if somebody found themselves in the same position as you regardless of what kind of a relationship it was, but it was one where they had someone they identified as a partner and they wanted intimacy with them and there were problems with that intimacy portion of their relationship, what tips do you have for how can you have this conversation?
Janelle Orion Guest
48:47
Well, I'm actually really glad you asked, because I'm actually writing a book on this very topic. Oh, hey, and what I call what you're asking is leading an epic life, epic being embodying pleasure, intimacy and consent as a path towards freedom and more fulfilling relationships. And so, for me, there are skills around pleasure, and pleasure is a relationship with ourselves.
Janelle Orion Guest
49:17
What is it that we desire, and the question often that people don't ask but I believe is really important, is what makes me feel safe in my body. Because when I feel safe in my body, then my pleasure gets more activated and I can be more curious.
Karen Covy Host
49:44
Approach addresses the internal intricacies of intense emotions, fixed mindsets and unconscious behaviors, along with the external complexities of legal approaches, financial awareness and co-parenting hurdles, ensuring that her clients emerge both victorious and transformed. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Karen McMahon.
Karen McMahon Guest
50:02
We were married maybe 10 years before I started, or even eight years before I started working on our divorce, and so my ex-husband had anger management issues. The words that were spoken to me were so mean and nasty and hurtful I couldn't shower hot enough or long enough to like get it off. My divorce was three and a half years. My children were four and six when I told them I am leaving Daddy. I took full responsibility because I knew I'd get thrown out under the bus. Cops was involved four times. The police came to the house, there was an order of protection, I was a fully commissioned salesperson, I was a working mom and I lost all of my business because I was emotionally devastated. I had my one and only panic attack where I thought I was having a heart attack, and I lived in the attic for three and a half years, and it was a hellacious journey. That was also the most transformative gift of my life.
Karen Covy Host
51:10
What I mean? Obviously, that sounds like a conflict in terms hellacious experience and a transformative gift. How did you get to the place where you could look at the worst experience of your life and see that it was really a gift?
Karen McMahon Guest
51:28
Yeah, you know, emerging from it. And we have a on our Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. We have a series called Voices of Celebration, which are all of our clients over the years who entered like me, resistant, scared, thinking it was the worst thing in the world, and emerged feeling renewed and transformed. And so when I emerged from my divorce in 2006, when I finally left the attic and had my own place, I remember calling my best friend and saying I am so pleased with the human being I have become that if someone said I had to do it all over again to be where I am today, I would do it on a dime.
Karen Covy Host
52:15
Wow, that's amazing dime.
Karen McMahon Guest
52:22
You know, I have a business partner, Lisa Brick, and she was raised in a conscious household, so consciousness, intentionality, was her life. I was a fairly sleepwalking individual until I slammed into my broken marriage and really began doing the work. That, for me, one of the biggest gifts was I went to Al-Anon, and Al-Anon is all about keep the focus on yourself, like don't clean their side of the street, don't cross to their side of the street. You focus on you, you do you, and that's one of the foundational tenants of Journey Beyond Divorce.
52:58
But it was such a gift because it's so easy when your spouse is high conflict. It is so easy to be like he this and she that and you can sing their shortcomings and their faults until the cows come home. And how many people? And I'll say this and then stop. The divorce rate is higher in second and third marriages because so many people think I've divorced the problem, I'll get on with my life, and then they rinse and repeat and then they say why does this keep happening to me, when in fact, they didn't do the work to make sure that they found someone different, so they ended up with the same person in a different body.
Karen Covy Host
53:45
Yeah, that is so, so true. You and I have both seen it many, many times, and yet it's really hard, when you're in a situation that is abusive to you, to focus on your own side of the street and not on what's being done to you, right? How do you help people change their mindset around it's being done to me versus it's being done for me, or I'll work with what's being done to me and make it something different.
Karen McMahon Guest
54:18
Yeah, it's not an either, or it's a yes, and yes, you're experiencing abuse. Yes, their behavior is displeasing. It is unacceptable. Yes, yes, yes. And let's look at what you brought to the table, because healthy people don't end up in relationships with high conflict individuals. Unhealthy individuals end up in relationship with high conflict individuals. So the high conflict individual and this is the other thing I like to say is, like you know, in today's day and age, everyone's an evil narcissist and I just I don't, I don't play that game.
54:54
High conflict individuals have mental health issues and they have trauma, and so there's all types of neurodiversity going on, and so, whether you're a narcissist or you have borderline personality, bipolar, OCD, a hundred other things, the human beings in this world who have mental illness are not the evil scourge of the world. They may be displeasing to be in an intimate relationship with, and that's where boundaries come in. And what I encourage my clients is when they come to us, they usually feel, understandably, out of control. Divorce is out of my control, everything's out of my control, he or she is out of my control, and we get to say actually there's something in your control that's a game changer. Would you like to know what it is and would you like to focus on it Because you can feel uber empowered going through your divorce? If you focus on this thing, that's in your control, what is it? It's you.
Karen Covy Host
55:56
Yeah, and I think, if I'm hearing you correctly, one of the things that is part of you or not part of you are boundaries, right, and for people who are in those relationships with a high conflict person, oftentimes boundaries are one of their biggest challenges because, as you mentioned, they're codependent. So if you could share with the audience a little bit about what boundaries are and why there's such a problem in a high conflict relationship.
Karen McMahon Guest
56:25
Yeah, and before I get into that, I do want to say, as you're listening to this episode, I want you to put on like a helmet of self-compassion and gentle kindness towards yourself, because, even as I say, like you know, we were wounded coming in. Whether you resonate with being codependent or a people pleaser or a perfectionist, these are things that these are coping mechanisms that we created as children in our family, and most families have some dysfunction. Mine was an alcoholic dad and a rageaholic mom and very, very young right. So like when I think of how young they were, it's like scary that they had three people that they were raising. But we don't lick it off the grass, we don't make it up. It's not our fault.
57:20
We learn coping mechanisms to be in these dysfunctional families and then, as we become adults, the very coping mechanisms that protected us, that created our codependence and our people pleasing, protected us. We intuitively, as children, knew how to protect ourselves. Those same coping mechanisms are going to lead you into dysfunctional and unhealthy relationships. We need to shed that armor and create healthy coping mechanisms and boundaries. I guarantee you I've yet to meet a client who wasn't good at boundaries, who grew up in a household with boundaries. It's like if you can't play a musical instrument because you didn't grow up with one, that makes sense. If you didn't grow up with boundaries, you're not going to understand what they are, what the value of them are or how to use the skill of boundaries in a valuable way.
Karen Covy Host
58:17
So what could you share with our listeners if they think? Well, first of all, let's dial this back a little bit and say let's say you're in a high conflict marriage, a high conflict divorce, a high conflict co-parenting situation, whatever it is. There is a lot of conflict. How can you identify whether or not you have a boundary issue? Yeah, what if there's somebody listening that says you know, I don't know if this is me or not. What would you say? How can they figure it out?
Karen McMahon Guest
58:51
Right so the idea of a boundary is there's internal boundaries that aren't often spoken about, and so if you're trying to control your displeasing spouse, you have a boundary issue, because you're right there, you've got a boundary issue. If you find that you need protection from your spouse because of their verbal, physical, emotional, financial control, you have a boundary issue. And if you are sitting there and you're going I have tried, I have told her not to do this, I have told him that I don't like that, and they just don't listen. You have a boundary issue, right, and you just don't know you're getting there, but you don't listen. And so boundaries are this two-step dance you set a boundary and you uphold a boundary. So let's talk about the internal boundary first, because I think that this is so fundamental to every relationship we're in, Karen.
59:52
So how often do you hear someone say you make me feel All the time? Well, I only did that because you did that thing. You made me do it, unless someone has a gun to your head. Nobody makes you feel, nobody makes you do. You feel what you feel and you do what you do, but to own that like that's the first part and I get pushed back all the time. It's like when he said X, y and Z to me, he absolutely made me feel unworthy.
01:00:26
Well, no, he didn't, because he could say the same X, y, z to someone who grew up in a healthy household, who has strong self-esteem, and that person would go, wow, that's nasty. Either you're having a bad day or this is the way you behave, but either way it's unacceptable to me. And they wouldn't feel anything, they wouldn't be devastated or hurt. And so our feelings come from our life, history and how we navigated things, and again, that family of origin. And so, on a very fundamental level, talk about empowerment. When you can say nobody makes me feel and nobody makes me do, I have full and complete agency over my emotions and my behavior. We are already in a new neighborhood. We are already in. We are building self-confidence, self-esteem, certainty of ourselves Like that's a beautiful thing.
Karen Covy Host
01:01:20
I really hope you've enjoyed this special episode of the Off the Fence podcast, sharing the best of the interviews that we had in 2024. If you like this episode, if you want to see more episodes in 2025, I highly encourage you. Like this episode, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel. It makes all the difference in the world and I look forward to seeing you again next time. Thank you.
