Episode Description
What if getting divorced didn't have to be a painful, expensive, and drawn-out battle? According to Cary Jacobson, founder and CEO of Jacobson Family Law, it doesn’t have to be.
Cary's firm takes a radically different approach to divorce than most divorce lawyers. They only handle non-litigated cases, focusing on mediation and Collaborative Divorce to keep the drama and costs down. They also offer flat-fee packages instead of billing by the hour - giving their clients peace of mind and control over their divorce costs.
Cary reveals how establishing clear expectations and utilizing advanced technology helps her firm streamline case management, reduce overhead, and improve efficiency. That, in turn, allows Cary's team to be more responsive to their clients while maintaining a better work-life balance for themselves.
Cary's methods challenge long-held assumptions about divorce and offer hope for more amicable separations.
In this conversation, you’ll also get a sneak peek into Keri's upcoming book, "Divorce Decoded: A Manifesto for Women," designed to guide women through each stage of divorce with a focus on the advantages of mediation.
Show Notes
About Cary
Cary Jacobson, Esquire is the founder and CEO of Jacobson Family Law. Cary has been practicing law for over a decade, having successfully represented clients in all facets of family law proceedings in Maryland.
Through her experience litigating family law matters, Cary has found that the conflict associated with litigation often tears a family apart making it toxic for children and their parents. However, as a certified mediator and collaborative divorce attorney, Cary has also seen how these forms of alternative dispute resolution can lead to and foster successful co-parenting arrangements.
Connect with Cary
You can connect with Cary on LinkedIn at Cary C Jacobson and on Facebook at Jacobson Family Law. You can follow Cary on Instagram at Jacobson Family Law and YouTube at Jacobson Family Law. To find more about Cary’s work visit her website at Jacobson Family Law.
Preorder Cary's new book: Divorce Decoded: A Manifesto for Women Navigating Divorce and Beyond.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with
- Cary Jacobson is the founder and CEO of Jacobson Family Law, practicing family law in Maryland for over a decade.
- She focuses on alternative dispute resolution methods like mediation and collaborative divorce to reduce conflict.
- Jacobson Family Law only handles non-litigated cases, referring contested cases to trusted litigation partners.
- The firm offers flat fee packages for mediation and separation agreement negotiations, rather than billing hourly.
- For mediation, they offer packages covering document preparation and even filing for uncontested divorces in some cases.
- For separation agreements, they typically charge a flat fee for 6 months of work.
- Collaborative divorce is billed hourly due to involvement of multiple professionals and unpredictable timelines.
- They use technology and virtual operations to streamline processes and reduce overhead costs.
- Cary emphasizes the importance of transparency in collaborative divorce and the difficulty of hiding assets in most cases.
- They use a case management system, online scheduling, and daily team calls to manage cases efficiently.
- Cary believes her approach offers clients more certainty in costs and better access to their attorneys compared to traditional litigation models.
- She co-authored a book called "Divorce Decoded: A Manifesto For Women," with her chapter focusing on divorce mediation and is set for pre-order on August 19, 2024, with official release expected in September.
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Transcript
Cary Jacobson: How to Save Money with a Flat Fee Divorce
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
collaborative divorce, non-litigated, uncontested divorce
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Cary Jacobson
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
00:45
With me today I have Cary Jacobson. Cary is the founder and CEO of Jacobson Family Law. She's been practicing law for over a decade and has represented clients in all facets of family law in Maryland. Through her experience litigating family law matters, Cary found that the conflict associated with litigation often tears families apart, making it toxic for the children and for the parents. So, as a certified mediator and collaborative divorce attorney, Cary has seen how these forms of alternative dispute resolution can lead to and foster successful co-parenting arrangements. Cary has chosen to dedicate her practice to working with clients who wish to resolve their family disputes without court intervention. She assists clients in choosing between mediation, collaborative divorce or separation agreements in order to keep the drama out of their divorce. Additionally, Jacobson Family Law assists clients with protecting their assets through the negotiation of pre or post-nuptial agreements and estate planning. Cary, welcome to the show.
Cary Jacobson Guest
01:47
Thank you so much for having me today. I appreciate it.
Karen Covy Host
01:50
It is a pleasure having you, and you and I have talked beforehand, so you know a little bit about what's coming and why I'm so excited to have you here. But we'll save that and add a little drama to the episode here. But I'd like to start, if it's okay with you, from the beginning. I mean, you graduated from law school and you started working for another firm in family law. Why, why, family law?
Cary Jacobson Guest
02:17
Honestly, it's primarily because I was a child of divorce. My parents divorced when I was young. I always knew that I wanted to be an attorney, probably as early as elementary school. However, the trajectory of what kind of law I was planning to practice changed over time. Originally, I was going to be a prosecutor because I was like that's the natural path to becoming a judge, and then there was a period of time where I was going to become an FBI agent. And then during undergrad, I took sociology and psychology classes, and that really set me up for the family law world.
Karen Covy Host
02:57
That makes sense, and you started with a firm, but then after a few years, you broke out on your own and formed your own firm. What motivated you to do that? Why not just stay with a firm that's already established?
Cary Jacobson Guest
03:16
I will say that I never in a million years had ever intended of becoming a business owner. It ultimately was because the person that I was working for actually had a medical event Right as I was coming back from maternity leave with my first child. He had a heart attack and triple bypass surgery on the eve of me coming back and ultimately, I was kind of forced into the position of running the practice for all its needs and purposes for a couple of years. And with that I realized well, why can't I do this by myself? Why can't I do it the way that I want to do it? So, right as I was getting pregnant with my second child, I took the leap of faith and went for it, and now it's been nine years.
Karen Covy Host
04:02
Wow. So that's amazing that you had the courage to do that when you were pregnant. I mean, that's not what most people would start doing when they're pregnant.
Cary Jacobson Guest
04:14
It was definitely a shock, but fortunately my husband is a federal government employee, so we had a steady source of income and health benefits, so I didn't have to worry about that and I had other people that had gone out on their own and had talked about how wonderful it was, and so I was like, well, if worst case scenario, I can find another job. So yeah, and now. I can never imagine working for someone else.
Karen Covy Host
04:44
Yeah, I know, as somebody who is like I started my own firm in 1995. At this point I'm pretty unemployable, you know. You get to that point where you're just like I can't imagine having a boss again. I mean not that there's anything wrong with bosses, I mean I am a boss but I just wouldn't be able to be happy in working for someone I don't think. I don't know, you never know. But I also know that because it's your own firm, you have the freedom to do things your way and you do things differently than many other attorneys in this area.
Cary Jacobson Guest
05:18
So let's start by talking about what makes Jacobson Family Law different, I would say the first thing is that we do not work on cases that are in court. So I was working with a business coach and she asked me what are the cases that you enjoy working on? I was like, really, the ones that are uncontested, the ones where there's not the fighting back and forth, and so then we kind of played with that and it was like, well, well, what could we do to amplify that so that we could find our the clients that we wanted to work with? And so you know, I know this is a very scary thing for attorneys turning down business, but at some point I just decided I really do not like working with other attorneys and other parties where you know every time you open your email you cringe at what's going to be there, and that just wasn't healthy for me. So we really started marketing to clients who wanted to find a better way, and it has been life changing.
Karen Covy Host
06:30
Yeah, I did a similar thing, but I want to take you back to something you just said, which is that you work with uncontested divorces, and to a lot of people that means when they hear the word uncontested, they hear everything is agreed. We just walked into the attorney's office and there's a difference. As an attorney, we both know uncontested doesn't mean everything is sunshine and roses right. There may still be issues to resolve, but it's about how you resolve them. Am I getting that right?
Cary Jacobson Guest
07:06
Absolutely so. We approach cases with settlement in mind first. That's always how we approach cases. So even if there are issues that need to be resolved, we try to settle it before filing in court. And the main reason for that is, as soon as you file, the temperature goes up 20 degrees. And I have I can't tell you how many times I've had mediation clients that have, you know, are court ordered and they've said, well, they put this in the pleadings and you know, and so like it's so memorable to them because it's usually so personal, so memorable to them because it's usually so personal. And so we really try to stay away from that and try to keep the temperature down on all of the cases and resolve them first, and only if they can't be resolved, then do our clients, you know, take the alternative route of filing something in court.
Karen Covy Host
08:01
You just said something interesting that I don't think enough lawyers, divorce lawyers, appreciate, and that's that people remember what's in the pleadings. And the pleadings for people listening or watching Pleadings are the documents that are written, that the lawyer writes, that are filed in court, or at least there's some of the documents. And so what do you mean, like what would be in a typical divorce petition written by a typical litigation attorney? What kind of things could somebody expect that to say?
Cary Jacobson Guest
08:35
Things about how terrible of a parent they were, that they weren't, you know, work they didn't work, providing that they're not a fit person to have custody of their child. It could be all kinds of mud-throwing, really. The fortunate thing is that now in Maryland and this is relatively recent just what six months ago, maybe eight months ago? Maryland finally became a no-fault divorce state, and so now we don't have to throw as much mud in the pleadings. We can just say that there are irreconcilable differences between the parties. Really, you still have attorneys that are throwing the mud, and before that, even more so because you had to include all of the nitty gritty about, you know, all of the things that the other person did that was wrong, in order for the divorce to be granted.
Karen Covy Host
09:32
So let me ask you why do lawyers mud throw like they do? I mean, is there a reason for it? Is it just that they're trying to line their own pockets? Do they have some legitimate litigation reason? Why would somebody write something that they know the other party is going to read and be horrified?
Cary Jacobson Guest
09:54
I will say if you're in a no-fault state and all you need to show are irreconcilable differences, I don't see the benefit of throwing mud anymore because you don't have to prove that the other person committed adultery or that they have been cruel and you know there was physical domestic violence or any of those things. It's really not until you get to a trial that you would have to prove those things. So I don't see how it really is beneficial until you're in the discovery phase, where you're having to provide all of the detailed information about what you plan to present in court.
Karen Covy Host
10:30
So you said that your law firm does things differently. You only take the I'm not going to say uncontested, because there may still be contested issues, but the non-litigated cases. So what happens? Say, I'm a client, I come to you and I'm like I think we can work this out. We want to go to mediation or we want to choose an alternative. We come to you, we try, it does not work. The temperature goes up, we're at each other's throats. We have to go to court. What do you do?
Cary Jacobson Guest
11:02
We will refer them to a trusted litigation partner, and when I say that, I specifically mean an attorney that we know, that you know we trust and that we know is not going to unnecessarily turn up the temperature in the case and drag it out and prolong it and make it more complicated than it needs to be. I admit that there definitely are scenarios where our clients need to take that next step in order for the case to ultimately likely settle, because many, many times that is the ultimate result. But sometimes the other party just isn't cooperative and needs that extra push.
Karen Covy Host
11:45
Yeah, and, as both of us know, the court is the only one that can give that extra push because, like as a mediator or collaborative divorce professional, you don't have a hammer.
Cary Jacobson Guest
12:05
You don't have a way to force somebody to either make a decision or make the decision for them, but a judge does, and sometimes just by the filing of the litigation. Sometimes having those time constraints right can be an important piece of the puzzle to get cases moving. And also, once the other side realizes they're going to have to respond to all of those discovery requests, it's a magical how quickly settlement happens when you're faced with having to produce three years of bank statements and credit card statements and have to pay your attorney's office for all of that preparation.
Karen Covy Host
12:42
Yeah, and speaking of payment, as most people are familiar divorce attorneys, or at least the majority, the vast majority of divorce attorneys bill by the hour. They take a retainer up front which they say okay, give me X thousands of dollars, I'll bill my hourly rate against that money that I'm holding in trust for you. When that runs out, I'm either going to hit you up for another retainer or you're going to start paying my bill, my hourly bill, every single month. Your firm does things differently, can you tell me about that.
Cary Jacobson Guest
13:16
Yes, so we offer flat fee packages. So, as an example, if you are coming to us for mediation, we have a couple of different packages that are available depending on how far you are in the process. We do have clients that come to us and say you know, we really worked out most of the details on our own, but we want some guidance to make sure we've done it correctly and that it's in a legal form that's going to protect us, and so typically those folks will fall into a one session package where we will take all of the information, ask some additional questions, make sure that we have covered everything, prepare their separation agreement and then ultimately file that in court. So we have that as an option For those folks who need a little extra help. We have basically a three-session package right now and I will say that the majority of our clients finish in that three sessions. There may be sometimes where we need more, but almost all of them finish in three sessions and, if necessary, we can add on additional mediation sessions, a la carte in essence, but we do it as a flat fee and that covers that particular package With our separation agreement negotiations.
14:39
So where we are representing a client in the preparation and negotiation of a separation agreement and being that person's legal advocate. We typically do it as a time frame and I will say that for the majority of our clients we say about six months. That's typical for needing to negotiate the agreement and get that done, finalized, and we usually will charge a flat fee to negotiate the agreement and then finalize the divorce.
Karen Covy Host
15:10
Okay, so I've got a question for you. Those first two packages were when your firm was acting as the mediator.
Cary Jacobson Guest
15:18
Yes.
Karen Covy Host
15:19
Okay. So when that happens, let's focus on that for a moment, because a lot of states, many states, are different. When you write up like when people come to you and you negotiate the mediation package, you help them mediate their divorce Do you write up all of the paperwork that they can then take to court? Do you take it to court? Are you not allowed to write the court paperwork? How does that work in your state?
Cary Jacobson Guest
15:48
Yeah, so for us we will draft the separation agreement. We call it the mediated marital settlement agreement, which is the contract, the separation agreement that they will ultimately finalize and sign. If our clients are here in Maryland, we also offer them the option for us to file and finalize just the uncontested divorce. So basically, file the complaint for them on one party's behalf Somebody they pick who the moving party is going to be we will file the paperwork, we make sure that the other party files their answer and then we will attend the uncontested divorce hearing. We put in our retainer that if it becomes contested that we are out of the case and that we will never represent either of them in any future litigation. So it really is just to get them from point A of the agreement being signed to point B of their divorce being finalized.
Karen Covy Host
16:48
So when you do that, you said you will represent one party. Can you say a little bit more about why you're not representing the both? You mediated the agreement.
Cary Jacobson Guest
16:58
Yeah, so because under the ethical rules we are not allowed to represent both of them for the purposes of the court filing. We are not allowed to represent both of them for the purposes of the court filing. We keep the other person in the loop of what's going on and what has been filed and what they need to complete, but we can't technically represent the responding party or the defendant in the case.
Karen Covy Host
17:24
And how is it that you can represent either one of them? Do you get a waiver of the conflict of interest?
Cary Jacobson Guest
17:26
Exactly, we have them sign a conflict of interest waiver basically saying that this is for the sole purpose of filing the uncontested divorce.
Karen Covy Host
17:36
Okay, because as a mediator, you're going to write up that mediated settlement agreement, but as lawyers, we both know that's not the only piece of paper that you have to file in order to get from point start to point done in your divorce, correct?
Cary Jacobson Guest
17:52
Absolutely yeah, you have to file the actual court paperwork as well.
Karen Covy Host
17:57
Okay. So if somebody is in a state where their mediator like for example in Illinois, mediators, to maintain their neutrality, typically do not, even if they're lawyers won't represent either party in the divorce and they say, okay, here's your documents, good luck, Right. And then one of them has to take the paperwork to another lawyer who files all of that or do it themselves. Have you ever had clients do it themselves?
Cary Jacobson Guest
18:28
We did before we started offering this service. That's exactly what I had to tell people. Right, like you have to either hire an attorney just for the filing or go to court and figure it out on your own. And I think really you know our clients were feeling a bit frustrated. It's like, well, I came to you because we didn't want attorneys involved is what I often heard. And what do you mean? I have to figure this out on my own and do it. So that's really why this service became an add on, because it was okay. Well, why can't we do this as long as everyone agrees, and that's the only thing we're doing, but it is a narrow gray line.
Karen Covy Host
19:13
Yeah, no, I get it. I understand, but my clients come to me. They often say the exact same thing I don't want to get a lawyer involved. We want to do this amicably. And it's interesting because what I hear often from clients and I hope that if there's any divorce attorneys listening to the podcast, they also hear this because what people are saying is we don't want to get lawyers involved because we lawyers only stir the pot. We don't want to fight.
Cary Jacobson Guest
19:40
That's exactly what it is. I hear this every time it is.
Karen Covy Host
19:49
And now I'm curious, though, because when I talk to most lawyers, they're terrified of doing what you're doing. They're terrified of offering a flat fee because there's so much in litigation or in a divorce case that they can't control. So how is it that you found a way to do what everybody else says they can't?
Cary Jacobson Guest
20:11
Yeah, I will say it's a lot of studying other people who have done the same thing and refining it over time. So ultimately we kind of listed out about how like really started tracking. How much time are we spending with clients? Um, you know, you are always going to have one or two that email constantly, that call constantly, that is, you know, really communicative. But then you have some that you may not hear for from, for you know, weeks on end, um, just because they maybe there's not you know much going on. So it averages out.
20:49
And so it's about how you structure it and what ways you put in your agreement that you can get out and under what circumstances, and that sort of thing. But so far it has really worked well. But so far it has really worked well. We track our time internally just to make sure that we are billing appropriately for the package that we're offering. But we don't have to ensure that we've included every single email or every single phone call and that sort of thing. And the other thing is just controlling the clients, setting those client expectations as to what communication is going to look like.
Karen Covy Host
21:35
So when somebody comes in, let's say they're going to do a separation agreement package, not a mediation package, but you're going to negotiate their separation agreement. Are they paying X dollars per month? Are they paying X dollars for a specific type of service, like we'll negotiate six times for you, or what does it look like?
Cary Jacobson Guest
21:53
Yeah, so for us it's a time period. So, like I said, it's basically for six months. We will work on, you know, back and forth revisions to the agreement, talk to the other attorney Pretty much all of it will be in there. If we need to attend a mediation with a client, there typically is an extra fee for that. But client communications, phone calls, emails, all of it is built in within that six months. We ask for that fee up front. So it's a flat fee at the outset that we take and then it's earned either at the conclusion of the case, the judgment being finalized, or the six month mark.
Karen Covy Host
22:36
Okay. So if I'm hearing you right, let's say I'm the client, so I come to you and I'm one of those communicators and I'm emailing you all the time. Look, here's this, here's that here's. You know, this is what's going on. I'm just trying to keep you informed, right, and I'm expecting you to get back to me. Am I understanding this right? No matter whether I email you once a month or once a day, it's the same flat fee.
Cary Jacobson Guest
23:01
It may be that, so my associates’ the one that handles most of these. It may be that she says, okay, we need to schedule a call to talk about all of the things that you have corresponded on. It would be easier to have a conversation. But really we want our clients to communicate with us, because what we find is when there's an hourly attorney on the other side, it is so challenging to get a response, and many times it's because the client doesn't want to pick up the phone or send an email to their attorney because they know they're going to be charged for it 100%, and that's what I see as a coach.
Karen Covy Host
23:43
That's a big part of what I'm doing is not only helping people navigate through their divorce and all the non-legal things that lawyers aren't going to help them with, but also how to work with their attorney, because they know after they get their first bill and they've got sticker shock, they say, well, I don't want to talk to my attorney because it always costs money. So it's a beautiful thing to know that if they went with a firm that was doing the flat fee billing like you are that if they had a question they could just ask Yep.
Cary Jacobson Guest
24:20
Yeah, it really is to help set their mind at ease and also not to get that surprise bill every month to say, oh, you mean, I have to come up with more money. Yes, it's a large outset, you know a large chunk at the outset and that can be a sticker shock for folks as well. But what I have found over and over with you know being the litigator and also working with litigators is that initial retainer goes quickly, that first it's gone, and so really that six months is a long time for folks.
Karen Covy Host
24:58
Yeah, it really is, and I really hope that people hear that, because so many people don't understand that the retainer is just the first chunk of money you're going to have to come up with, and if you're fighting, if you're litigating, even if you're mediating or doing a collaborative divorce something that goes on and on and on it's only the first chunk, and you're going to pay double, triple, sometimes 10 times that amount, depending on how complicated and contested your case becomes. Absolutely so how do you, as a lawyer, though, how do you, provide that service within the flat fee basis? I know that your firm unlike, let's say, traditional firms that have been around for a while you use a lot of technology. Tell me about that.
Cary Jacobson Guest
25:57
We do use a lot of technology. Well, first, we're virtual, so we don't have the overhead of an office. We are completely virtual. Most of my team is here in Maryland, but we have an administrative assistant that is in Argentina and it works wonderfully. So we have a team call every day to check on what's going on, and we communicate through Google chat. We have a case management system that will automate most communications to clients, especially those new leads and that sort of thing. People schedule online for their own appointments. We send them a link and they can schedule. They get links both through text message and email, so it reduces a lot of the back and forth time with that our team is spending. I don't take unscheduled calls and usually my associate won't take unscheduled calls. You have to schedule a meeting so that we know exactly what we're. You know we're planning to work on that day, so it takes a lot of that. You know a lot of the nuance out of it and it really helps streamline things.
Karen Covy Host
27:09
That's amazing because it sounds like by doing that, really it's a win-win for both of you, because the clients have the benefit of having a flat fee and you have the benefit of having more control over your life right, more control over your schedule. But what happens if you've got the client who something happened? There was a big fight, there was some incident, there was something that happened and they're just freaking out. They pick up the phone. They can't reach you now because it's not a scheduled call, because it just happened at midnight, and now it's eight in the morning. What happens to them?
Cary Jacobson Guest
27:48
I will say that it almost never happens. It almost never happens, especially. Even so, my primary focus is the mediation. So I really don't have that. But even my associate, she may get an email in the middle of the night. Associate, she may get an email in the middle of the night, but the client can schedule a call for the next day. So it's not as if they can't get ahold of us and she can always email them back if there is, you know, an emergency situation.
Karen Covy Host
28:16
So when you're saying they schedule an appointment, it's not like you've got to wait two weeks to talk to you.
Cary Jacobson Guest
28:21
No, yeah, I mean, it could be scheduled the same day, as long as we don't have. You know, our calendar isn't completely booked.
Karen Covy Host
28:28
That makes so much sense because I you know honestly, as a coach, I have had the benefit of getting insight into lawyers that most lawyers never get the opportunity to see. And one of the things that I hear from my clients over and over and over and over is when I do email my lawyer, nobody gets back to me. I try to call, nobody picks up the phone. I can't get a meeting for weeks and then I get it and the lawyer's stuck in court and there goes my meeting. So how do you manage to actually service your clients?
Cary Jacobson Guest
29:10
I will say one of the things you just mentioned we're not in court, and I think that's the biggest difference. Our calendars aren't controlled by what the court schedule is going to be, so we have a lot more availability because we're not in multi-day trials, and that makes all the difference in the world.
Karen Covy Host
29:32
Yeah, and I think if, for anyone listening to that, what they really need to hear is, if you can stay out of court, if you can mediate your divorce or do a collaborative divorce, you're going to be better off. It's going to be less expensive, less conflictual, less all the things you don't want in your life. But that brings me to another point. What about collaborative divorce? How do you structure that?
Cary Jacobson Guest
29:59
So collaborative is its own animal because there are so many different professionals involved. So that is really the only scenario that we do kind of charge by the hour, because we just don't know how long it may take. I've been fortunate to have a couple of cases that have been within six months, but I've had some that have lasted over a year.
Karen Covy Host
30:28
Why? What makes the difference?
Cary Jacobson Guest
30:29
Well, number one, it can be the professionals that are involved, right? I find that oftentimes, even though we have professionals that are collaboratively trained, it's really hard for people to turn off the litigation hat, and I think that that can be complicated. The other thing is we are not bound by any timelines, right. We don't have a court hanging over our head to say you got to get this done, and so it takes a long time sometimes to get a response because that other attorney may be a litigator and be stuck in court. So you know, those can be challenging situations, especially if you happen to have the client who is ready to be divorced last week, right, which sometimes happens.
Karen Covy Host
31:23
Yeah, and usually what people need to understand is that it's rare. I mean, I've been doing this for more decades than I care to admit to and it is extraordinarily rare to have two people who are on the same timeline. At the same time, one person wants to be done yesterday and the other one is still pitching for marriage counseling.
Cary Jacobson Guest
31:45
Yes, very common.
Karen Covy Host
31:48
So when you have and you mentioned the team of professionals in collaborative, how do you or how does one not you necessarily, but how does somebody go about putting together that team? Is that something that the lawyers do, that the clients do that? Who puts together the team?
Cary Jacobson Guest
32:11
Yeah, so most commonly, at least in my experience, is that typically the parties will first go to an attorney, right, and then from there, so they'll kind of each choose their own collaborative attorney and then in that scenario the attorneys will connect with one another and kind of talk about the background of the case, some of the personality um pieces, some of the struggles the parties may be having, and I often will direct my client to a coach that I think will be a good fit for them.
32:45
There are times I like I currently have a case where they actually pick the coach first and we're working with the coach on the parenting plan before they actually finalized attorneys. But that's, that's typically out of the out of the ordinary. And then, as with the attorneys and the coaches, we talk about whether or not we may need to bring in other professionals, most commonly um, the financial and who might be a good fit for them and their particular scenario Um, those are my most common players. Every once in a while we will have a child specialist or I've had a business evaluator that the parties have mutually chosen, but that's the most standard collaborative matter.
Karen Covy Host
33:32
And just for the benefit of those people who are listening who may not be 100% clear on what is a collaborative divorce. I mean, you and I both know that that means something very different than just, oh, we're going to collaborate. Can you explain to the listeners what is a collaborative divorce?
Cary Jacobson Guest
33:50
Yes, so a collaborative divorce is typically a process it's another alternative dispute resolution process that includes a team of professionals who have been collaboratively trained, and one of the most important pieces is that everyone on that team signed something called a participation agreement it may be called something else in other places. That basically says that you guys, that the parties are going to be the team is going to be completely transparent. They're not going to hold litigation over the other party's head and that if, for some reason, the collaborative process fails, the parties have to hire new professionals to move forward with litigation.
Karen Covy Host
34:34
Right. So in other words, if you're in the middle of a collaborative divorce and, for whatever reason, it doesn't work and somebody says that's it, I'm done, I'm going to court, all the professionals withdraw, right. Which is why I don't know what you found in your experience, but in mine I have found that that's a reason why a lot of attorneys won't do collaborative divorce, because they don't want to lose the gravy train if the case goes to court.
Cary Jacobson Guest
35:04
Correct, absolutely yes. For us that wouldn't matter because we don't do to lose the gravy train. if the case goes to court, correct, Absolutely yes. For us that wouldn't matter because we don't do the litigation anyway. So it's really, you know, one of the same. But I agree that most people choose not to do the collaborative because they can't continue on in the litigation space.
Karen Covy Host
35:21
Right, and the other thing is too collaborative. This is the way it's done here. I assume it's the same where you're at. The entire collaborative process takes place before anyone files anything typically in court, right.
Cary Jacobson Guest
35:37
Yes, I've had maybe one or two scenarios that I've ever come across where the initial complaint had been filed but then we filed a stay to stop it while they move forward through the collaborative process.
Karen Covy Host
35:53
Right. So that explains for people listening why there's no timeline, yeah, and there's also no judge and no hammers. So one of the hallmarks of collaborative and any alternative dispute resolution is there's got. It's the transparency you mentioned, right. So what do you do if somebody comes to you and says I want to do collaborative or I want to mediate, but my husband my husband or my wife is hiding information? I don't know if they're going to come clean. What do you tell that person?
Cary Jacobson Guest
36:27
So I think many people have that fear and that distrust. I don't usually see that it's actually happening, and especially in the collaborative. We can request documents, we can get verification so you know if there is a concern we can always ask. We can get verification so you know, if there is a concern we can always ask for the proof, basically so that we can verify, you know concerns and determine if it's an actual valid concern or not.
Karen Covy Host
36:59
Right, and I think you know for the people listening, it depends a lot on your circumstances, right? If you and your spouse are W-2 employees, and you've been W-2 employees your whole life, and you've got a house, a couple of cars and some retirement accounts, can your spouse be hiding money? Of course anybody can do anything. Is it likely?
Cary Jacobson Guest
37:23
It's really hard to hide money these days, unless you are a cash business, right? Unless you're operating. You're a self-employed and you are operating a cash business of some sort. That's a different scenario, but even in litigation, you may not necessarily be able to find it either.
Karen Covy Host
37:41
So yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. People assume that when you go to court, they, you know. First of all, no one lies to the judge, Everybody comes clean with everything right and you have a way to find all of the information that you need right, and that works really well, doesn't it?
Cary Jacobson Guest
38:01
Yeah, and you spend tens of thousands of dollars finding what may equate to $5,000,. Right, like you may have found it, but it really wasn't beneficial for you.
Karen Covy Host
38:12
Right, or you may never find it at all. It's like I tell my clients you know, okay, you're in whatever state you're in, or city or near. Let's say, you're in Chicago and you think your spouse hid money in some bank in Chicago. Do you have any idea how many subpoenas you would have to send and, by the way, every single one of them costs money right To try to find something that's a needle in the haystack. It's kind of challenging. Okay, I know that you have a book coming out. Can you tell me about that?
Cary Jacobson Guest
38:47
Yes, I'm very excited. I am a co-author of a book called Divorce Decoded a Manifesto For Women, and so it is written by I think it's 13 of us authors who have written a different chapter, basically for women who are going through the process, either from the contemplative stage all the way through post-divorce. My particular chapter is on divorce mediation, so keeping the drama out of divorce with divorce mediation, and so I'm super excited to now be able to say that I am an author as well.
Karen Covy Host
39:26
That is wonderful and for those people who are listening, we will link up in the show notes to the places where you can go and get Cary's book. When is it actually coming out, Cary?
Cary Jacobson Guest
39:39
Yes, so the pre-launch pre-orders will be available on August 19th 2024, with the official copies to come out, we think, sometime in September.
Karen Covy Host
39:52
That, congratulations. I know. As an author myself, I know what that takes.
Cary Jacobson Guest
Yes, Thank you, it is.
Karen Covy Host
It's a lot of work, but I think you have a beautiful message to get across to people. Is there? Is there anything else that you'd like to add or throw in here before we wrap today?
Cary Jacobson Guest
40:10
No, I greatly appreciate all of the time that you have spent today and have this opportunity.
Karen Covy Host
40:16
Well, thank you for sharing your wisdom and sharing your approach, the different alternatives to doing divorce in the typical way in many senses of the word. So, thank you so much. And, for those of you who are listening or who are watching, everything that Cary has talked about, everything is going to be linked up in the show notes and if you liked today's episode, if you want more of this, then do me a big favor like the episode, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
