Episode Description - How to Create Peace Through Co-Parenting Counseling
When your marriage crumbles, figuring out how to effectively parent with your ex can feel like navigating a minefield. Co-parenting counseling, an approach that helps divorced couples prioritize their children's needs over their own complicated emotions, can help.
In this podcast episode licensed professional counselor Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez explains how.
Co-parenting counselors are licensed mental health professionals who provide expert recommendations and guidance to help parents communicate better and make child-focused decisions.
Unlike court-appointed parenting coordinators, co-parenting counselors don’t have the authority to adjudicate disputes or enforce parenting agreements. They do, however, have the skills and ability to help parents create a functional new family dynamic where both parents can learn to work together for their children's wellbeing.
If you’re searching for practical strategies for navigating common co-parenting dilemmas, such as setting boundaries, managing emotions, and creating actionable goals that prioritize children’s well-being, this episode may provide the answers you seek. Co-parenting counseling can help you transform your contentious parental dynamics into a productive partnership, helping you and your spouse align on critical parenting decisions.
If you or someone you know is experiencing parenting challenges, this podcast episode just might change everything for you.
Show Notes
About Kelley
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez, LPC, is a Licensed Professional Counselor in private practice in Ridgefield, Connecticut, specializing in assisting couples at relationship crossroads, particularly when one party is uncertain about the marriage's future. She offers Couples Therapy, Affair Recovery, Sex Therapy, Discernment Counseling, Healing Separation Support, and Co-Parenting Counseling. Kelley also provides non-adversarial divorce support to divorcing partners, helping them navigate communication impasses to make important decisions during and after the divorce process. Focused on child wellbeing, she aids co-parents in developing a new relationship centered on their kids’ needs. Kelley is among a select group of mental health providers trained in mediation and collaborative divorce, offering cooperative and efficient options.
Connect with Kelley
You can connect with Kelley on LinkedIn at Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez and on Facebook at Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez: Manifesting Positive Outcomes and follow Kelley on Instagram at KelleyHopkinsAlvarezLPC. To learn more about Kelley’s work visit her website at Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez and her YouTube channel at Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez, LPC.
Additional Resources:
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Kelley
- Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez is a licensed professional counselor who specializes in helping couples at relationship crossroads, particularly focusing on co-parenting counseling and divorce support.
- Co-parenting counseling differs from parenting coordination - counselors make recommendations but lack enforcement power, while coordinators work with courts and can make binding decisions on minor issues.
- Co-parenting counselors help divorced/divorcing parents focus on their children's needs, develop communication strategies, and work through impasses without getting caught up in relationship issues.
- The field of co-parenting counseling is relatively small and specialized, requiring professionals to maintain strict neutrality while working with former couples who may be in conflict.
- The ideal candidates for co-parenting counseling are those who can manage their emotions, have external support systems, and demonstrate willingness to compromise and reset when triggered - though those aspiring to develop these skills can also benefit.
- Co-parenting counseling typically lasts up to a year, though clients may return later when adjustments are needed. Services can be utilized even years after divorce or by co-grandparents dealing with family events.
- The counseling process often includes tools like the BIFF method (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) for communication, feelings wheels, anger icebergs, structured goal-setting approaches, and co-parenting apps.
- Parallel parenting, while not a legal concept, is described as a "worst-case scenario" where high-conflict co-parents operate independently with minimal interaction, often requiring intermediaries for communication.
- Co-parenting relationships can extend to grandparenting, with counselors sometimes helping divorced grandparents navigate relationships with grandchildren and family events.
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Transcript
How to Create Peace Through Co-Parenting Counseling
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
neutrality, boundaries, child-centered, non-adversarial
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of talking to Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez, and Kelley is a licensed professional counselor in private practice in Ridgefield, Connecticut. She specializes in assisting couples at relationship crossroads, particularly when one party is uncertain about the marriage's future. She offers couples therapy, affair recovery, sex therapy, discernment counseling, healing, separation support and co-parenting counseling. Kelley also provides non-adversarial divorce support for divorcing partners, helping them navigate communication impasses to make important decisions during and after the divorce process. Focused on child well-being, Kelley aids co-parents in developing a new relationship centered on their children's needs. Kelley is among a select group of mental health providers trained in mediation and collaborative divorce, offering cooperative and efficient options in a divorce situation. Kelley, welcome to the show.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
01:40
Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to our chat today.
Karen Covy Host
01:42
As have I right, Because I mean, you do a lot of things and we could take this conversation in a lot of different directions, but what I really want to get out into the world and I think you do too is more about you know, it's about co-parenting counseling. It's about what it means to really focus on the children, Because a lot of people going through a divorce. They have their own ideas of what that means, but usually both parents are on very different pages about what's really best. And before we get into that, I know one of the things that you do is co-parent counseling or co-parenting counseling. What is the difference between co-parenting counseling and a co-parenting cohort, or parenting or co-parenting coordinator, which is something that we've been hearing a lot about these days? Tell me the difference between those two professionals.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
02:37
Well, I'm really glad you asked. They seem like they're synonymous or interchangeable, right. It's sort of just like saying, well, let's get a Kleenex, it's just. It's sort of like the brand, if you will. They're actually a little bit different and in some cases a lot different.
02:51
So co-parenting counseling, I would say for the non-adversarial couple that is divorcing or has divorced, is a mental health neutral party is going to give recommendations that are generally developmentally appropriate for whatever ages their children are. These are recommendations generally co-parenting counselors have. Sometimes they have an education background. Before mental health, I had a certified teacher certification, a master's in education, and then I went on to get a certified school counseling. So I had an education background. So one master's in education, one in counseling now since 2009. So we're really focused on kids. We're focused on what they need and trying to get the parents not just talking about their own interests in either the separation or divorce, but we're looking at how will their interests in whatever they're looking to manifest in their new life separately from their partner, but how will it impact their kids, sort of putting the kids at the top of the pyramid.
04:08
So that's co-parenting counseling co-parenting coordinator, I would say, is more useful for people who are at least one member of the co-parents is adversarial, um, and maybe that they had to get to that point. Maybe their co-parenting partner was unwilling to participate. There are many reasons why people get to that point. But a co-parenting coordinator or a parenting coordinator quite often for me is synonymous with the court. So if they're mandated let's say they are litigating against each other and they're mandated to co-parenting, they would need to find a parenting coordinator. Quite often that parenting coordinator is following through on some of the recommendations the judge might have put forth. Sometimes they're working with the judge on language and vice versa, of how to actually actualize what needs to happen. So co-parenting counselor is what I am. I don't have anything to do with the court system. I don't want anything to do with the court system. So I would not be useful for people who are wanting a mental health provider to mandate their co-parent to let's their parenting plan Does that make sense?
Karen Covy Host
05:28
Yeah, it does. Back in the first season of the show I had a couple of people on who were parenting coordinators, right, and as a lawyer I get the difference easily. But that's because this is my jam, right. I work in this field for people who don't, though. It can be confusing.
05:47
So the way that I often describe it is the parenting coordinator is kind of like a mini judge. I hate to say that because I don't want people to get think it's something that it's not. But the parenting coordinator is imbued with, you know, by the judge with a certain amount of authority to make decisions, especially quick decisions when the parents can't agree and they can't get into the judge, Right, and usually they're about things like, you know, does the child get a haircut or does that, you know, like they're. They're smaller decisions that you wouldn't necessarily want to be trooping into court because the judge would look at you like, really, really, you brought me this decision. So the parenting coordinator makes those decisions, helps the parents make those decisions, and if they want to take the parenting coordinator's decision up to the judge later, they can do that.
06:43
But it's more of a decision maker as well as a guide, but it sounds like the counseling is more. Co-parenting counseling is more. How do we put the kids' needs first? How do we interact with each other? How do we communicate? Is that part of what you do?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
07:00
How do we find a way through the impasses? Obviously, something happened in the private personal relationship between the parties which is part of why they're no longer a couple. So it's really I try to put myself in every client's shoes. It's the worst time for them to be partnering on anything, especially while they're going through the divorce. And yet we as co-parenting counselors are there to facilitate, kind of holding a space for them that we're here. We'll help you with the impasses, even though you couldn't necessarily do that in your personal relationship. So it's separating the two and also slowly massaging with certain concepts of there's still a need for family time yes, a child or teen still needs to know they're part of a family and planting those little seeds because there's a lot of boundary setting when people get to the point of divorce right and there needs to be yeah.
08:06
Yep, well, the the difficult sort of mind switch is, even though all these boundaries are being in place with our individual life. The children still need to see the parents together and I generally say you know a cup of ice cream once a week or every other week. It takes about five minutes to eat a cup of ice cream. But for kids and teens to have their family and I do this family because it's from the kids perspective people who are divorcing, as they're mentally changing what they need to change to get through this process, they're not necessarily thinking that they're a family with their soon to be divorced spouse. Does that make sense?
Karen Covy Host
08:45
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. But I have a question for you. Then, if the parents disagree on whatever it is right and they come to co-parenting counseling, will you make the decision for them the way a co-parenting coordinator might?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
09:03
That's a great question and this comes up almost every single time I work with co-parents. I make recommendations. So, Kelley recommends that you don't introduce a new partner from the date of the divorce for at least six months. That's quite often in a parenting plan. That's it right, would you say a consistent. It's generally in there. So that's a recommendation that usually aligns with what they've already done with their mediator or collaborative divorce provider or, some cases, litigator. So I of course recommend that kids need to be able to process the divorce first. Yeah, they don't need new people coming in. It's too much developmentally for them. So that would be something I would recommend.
09:55
And wouldn't you know it, the other co-parent finds out that. Or the kids have said I met so-and-so mommy's girlfriend, daddy's girlfriend and they want the co-parenting counselor to have some sort of teeth in how she or he responds to it, and I really don't. I can only reiterate my recommendation. There is no one mandating or enforcing the recommendations. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
The co-parents are voluntarily agreeing to come to this professional to hear the recommendations and to try to hopefully, if they appreciate the feedback and they think it's valid to follow that as best as they can, which actually is the tiebreaker sometimes. Sometimes people need a tiebreaker, so it's not. Their co-parenting partners say this oh, it's this mental health neutral person. Oh, we'll do that now because they said it.
Karen Covy Host
Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense, right, and sometimes I think people can probably hear you better than they can hear their spouse, even if you're saying the same thing.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
11:03
It's true, and maintaining neutrality in the co-parenting counseling arena is an art, and we should probably talk about how few mental health providers go really to specialize in this work, because you don't have two people who are in a relationship anymore. And so what is our use? What is our value? It's it's a very small field and it's an important one, but it's not necessarily something we train for in graduate school, so it's it, those of us who do it. I'm always trying to talk to other people who I think would be effective, and generally there aren't a lot of takers, because it is very, very challenging.
Karen Covy Host
11:59
That I agree with. I know some people who are not parenting counselors, to your point. I don't know a lot of them. I know actually maybe one, but mostly it's the parenting coordinators, and even that is a small group of professionals, because you're caught, usually in the middle of parental conflict over children and it's hard, it's really hard work to, like you said, maintain neutrality, give the recommendations and then try to encourage both sides to do what's right for the children, and that especially when they disagree on what's right for the children.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
12:40
Yes and, honestly, a good co-parenting counselor is gonna help them identify. More than likely, many of your impasses are fueled from your unsolved relationship cycle and we're not processing that because, even though it's co-parenting counseling here's another confusing thing about this it's not counseling, it's not therapy. We're actually talking about things that only pertain to your children and there's a limitation on. I don't need to know how the relationship broke down. However, I've learned over the years in my intakes with new co-parents to meet with them first together, so there's always a together of them, knowing I am impartial, and then I will meet with each one individually, generally just one time, so I can they really feel like they have to let me know about the affair. They have to let me know about the breakdown of the relationship. So I've learned over time. That is an essential component and very rarely will I ever have an additional session with each of them individually. That's only reserved when it looks like our process is going to end prematurely by one of the co-parents and I will facilitate an individual discussion.
14:06
Clearly, I don't think you've accomplished the goals that you set forth, but that's important. To keep reminding the details of why they're getting to the impasse is not relevant and it can sort of just spontaneously pop up in one of their disagreements Well, that's because you had an affair and you're a liar, for instance, and I have to stop our discussion and I'm both a therapist and also this neutral party and I have to sort of not put my therapy hat on and say, oh, how did that make you feel? Of course I'd love to do that, but this is not my role. My role is co-parenting counselor and I have to say I hear what you just said and I'm going to bring us back to the actual agenda item for your child. That's what we're working on. That is my only role with you. There's a lot of that.
Karen Covy Host
15:02
You mentioned goals. What are their goals for the co-parenting counseling? What are appropriate goals for co-parenting counseling? Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
15:15
I am so glad you asked. There is a book by Bill Eddy. You know the Biff, brief, informative, friendly and firm. I usually teach people how to write the goals. They usually know what their goals are. It's the way that they're written is usually with a lot of emotional language and blame. So when I recommend that Biff book and there's one for social media posts, not social media, excuse me texting and email, which I don't recommend texting your co-parent unless there's an emergency, because that's showing that there's no boundaries. We really want to move this relationship to more of child-centered, which is communication. Put your agenda items through email or use the co-parenting app. One of them that I interact a lot with is Our Family Wizard.
Karen Covy Host
16:20
Yeah, I love that one.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
16:22
At minimum at least rename an email that says co-parenting business at I don't know, gmailcom. So it's not filtering into your individual, so you're not seeing that. So, trying to teach the couple what goals are generally, they come in and they want fairness. Like I mentioned, they might want the new boyfriend not to come to the soccer games. So there's, I have to massage the goals and honor them and also help filter them through that BIFF strategy. So midway through co-parenting you'll see co-parents start to transform in how they're writing and I teach them very succinct, numbered, brief. Generally one to three goals are put in a group communication with my co-parents before we meet so everyone knows what they're walking into. That's important to gear up for the session. The goals are presented to each other ahead of time. There are no surprises, less possibility of reenacting that automatic negative unsolved relationship cycle. So there's a lot of tools. There's a lot of structure in working with people who are no longer in a relationship that have children.
Karen Covy Host
17:38
Yeah, because see and I would challenge you on that I would say they are still in a relationship. They may not be in the you know, they may not want to be, but for better or worse, when you have kids together, you're stuck together for the rest of your life on some level.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
17:57
And how do we communicate in this? The product of the relationship is solely the kids. And sometimes they'll see my background as a couples therapist and they'll want to process and I'll say I really have to be clear on what my role is. I mean, I'm a couples therapist. I love couples therapy. I've been married 32 years. I love to save relationships. I also have to be careful of what my role is Ethically. We have to know what we're doing at all times and I would say there is a little bit of processing. That happens in co-parenting, when each person is learning to regulate their own personal therapist to support them while we go through this process, because it's very hard to collaborate when each of them have very different viewpoints.
Karen Covy Host
18:59
Right. So that brings me to my next question, which is who is this good for? I mean, , we all know and have worked with the super high conflict couples who are at each other's throat. You can look at them and when they I mean they fight about, is the sky blue or pink today, right? And so, of course, those kinds of parents, when they have you know, if they are parents together, you would say obviously they need co-parenting counseling because they can't agree on anything. Okay, fine, but are they the only ones who could benefit from, or should think about co-parenting counseling? And, if not, who should think about this?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
19:40
This is a wonderful question. I, of course, as a therapist, as a mother, as a human being, would like everyone to try to learn the new tools with their new relationship. I would love that. It just rings true to me. The challenge is high conflict persons, whether it's both or one, really do struggle with co-parenting counseling. And in the intake process, when I am working with them, both initially and learning about their goals, if I have a sense that they are better off with a co-parenting counselor, I will let them know, because some of what they want is enforcement.
And, Kelley, what will you do if, if this person who's not supposed to be at the pickup or drop off they actually might have that in their parenting plan Like this particular person they've agreed to it will not be at the could be a family member or a friend, something, whatever it is. When that is violated, I can see that in my intake with them and I will let them know I'm probably not the right professional. You really do need someone that could work with you on that sort of more legal turf. This would be myself facilitating a conversation between you and your co-parent about that. But if they disagree about what was in the parenting plan. Nothing in co-parenting counseling that will enforce that. This is a process where each of you has to voluntarily want to keep coming back to that proverbial table and discussing, because you know that if you're not in a good place with your co-parent, everything is bad.
21:36
Every drop-off, every pickup, yes, yes, co-parenting counseling is really good for those persons that can manage their own emotions, have additional support outside of co-parenting. Just seeing the face of their co-parents can be triggering. And that will lead me to how I facilitate co-parenting. Prior to COVID, it was always in person. I'm an in-person couples therapist.
22:05
I am now a Zoom co-parenting counselor. The reason is it affords the mute button and it affords that has been incredible to help parties where at least one of them it's usually both of them taking turns at different times, taking a break and sometimes I've had to very rarely conduct co-parenting with I'm on zoom, but they're not and because the triggering of looking at each other and the yep when the other one rolling the eye I will adjust and modify my protocol to the degree that I can. I still have to have a process that I can support and that I'm comfortable with, but that is a way to facilitate achieving some of those goals and maybe casting a wider net to see who is a couple's counseling candidate. Does that make sense? To answer your question, it's a very multi-layered answer.
Karen Covy Host
23:07
Well, and I'd like to add another layer to that, just because if people are coming to you looking for the heavy, the enforcer, right, which is not your role at all. But here's the other thing people don't understand. This is probably not going to be a popular opinion to voice. However,
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
Go for it, Karen.
Karen Covy Host
Look, lawyers. When you go to a lawyer and you want to get a divorce and they're writing up your parenting plan right, often their focus is to get it done, right? Write the parenting plan, find something that the two of you agree on. So very often they will put things in there that are completely unenforceable, like you would never be able to prove it in court. To your point, the example did the boyfriend or girlfriend show up at the pickup or drop off of the kids, right? Let me ask you a question If you're going to in court to enforce that provision that's admittedly in your parenting plan, how are you going to do it? Who are you going to have testify your children?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
24:21
Yeah, and there is no judge on the planet that wants that, yeah, and hearing that just as a co-parenting counselor, that just hits me like right in the chest, like boom. Yeah, it doesn't always have the same impact when you're speaking with co-parents that feel like they spent. I might be quoted we spent $40,000 on mediation and we created this parenting plan, or we spent two years in litigation. That is honestly a reasonable statement. From the point of my co-parents, I understand who's going to enforce this. It's so frustrating, it's so hard and my heart goes out to them because they're living a life where they feel like their child sometimes is at risk, sometimes is not getting the best that they should have had, and they want to advocate for their child. And now they're learning. In some cases, like this one in particular, like you're citing, they have more of a limited role. The other co-parent has to want to want to compromise on that particular issue.
And if they don't, there's really not, I don't think, a lot of paths. And I have to be very clear. By the way, I should say this. I say it in my intake paperwork, I say it when we meet quite often. I'm a mental health neutral. I am not a legal professional. I work interdisciplinarily.
25:49
We were chatting about the Connecticut Council for Non-Adversarial Divorce. They are a nonprofit in Connecticut. That's an interdisciplinary group of mediators mental health providers, collaborative divorce providers, certified divorce, financial analysts, mortgage providers that work with people who are divorcing, and so I hear things in the legal realm, they might hear things in the mental health realm, but we all are very careful not to go out of our license or out of your lane. And to be clear with people. That's how I think clients trust you. When you can say that's actually a legal question, please ask. Sometimes it makes them upset because they really want the answers now. But as a mental health provider I am not a licensed attorney I cannot discuss why this wasn't in your parenting plan. I cannot even discuss actual language that will go into your parenting plan. Mediators don't really appreciate that they will have to rewrite a lot of what a mental health provider would write.
Karen Covy Host
27:01
So, my gosh, there's so much in there because people think they're going to go to you. You're going to write, you know, a bullet point list and then, my favorite, they're just going to take that to court and the judge is going to enter it and I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, each professional writes from their own perspective, but it's the lawyer that's going to write the legal version of that. But you know, and this is where it takes a team, right, people can't go to you and expect you to enforce their parenting plan.
27:41
However, the point is for them to perhaps understand even though they don't want to hear this, that maybe that particular provision is unenforceable. Or, if you did enforce it, what's the penalty? Okay, your co-parent, maybe your spouse, former spouse, says yeah, I did that. Okay, now what Do they not get? To see the children for the rest of their life? I mean, what's the penalty, right? So, the point is to then go to a someone like you, who is the parent you know, who can help them figure out the co-parenting through counseling and make each parent want, give them a reason to want to participate and follow the rules. That's the beauty of what you provide and holding a space for them that they can do it.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
28:20
Sometimes I'm actually in a mediation where I'm the co-parenting counselor and after that session you know you were talking about the writing, I can write the summary of what we discussed and I do. That summary gets sent to both of them. If they are working with an attorney, I will, and I have consents or I was in the mediation I will forward the summary. So everyone knows what we talked about. Everyone knows what the recommendations are.
28:53
In order to think logically about being on a team, we have to have persons be able to manage their emotions and stay present. So I will show them. When I meet with them individually in the intake, I'll give them a feelings wheel. I'll give them tools, an anger iceberg, and I'll say when we're doing our Zooms, have it next to you, have it in your phone. When you're in your car and you got an abrupt text, open the photo that you took of this feelings wheel or this anger iceberg or the BIFF strategies and look at it. Take a breath and don't respond.
29:29
I have been on the receiving end of a barrage of emails on our family wizard a barrage of photos and emails that's telling me that the person is in their emotions, they're in fight, flight or freeze and they're reenacting the unsolved negative marital cycle and I have to let them know that and help them reset. You don't have to be perfect to come into co-parent. Back again to your question who is a good candidate? Someone that says I'm still getting triggered, I caught myself, or thank you for helping me catch myself who sometimes can apologize to their co-parent on the session. Sorry for cutting you off, sorry for blurting out Well, you did this because you had an affair and reset. If they can reset, those are excellent co-parenting counseling candidates and that's very hard to do, very hard, a lot of work.
Karen Covy Host
30:24
Well, what if somebody isn't there? They can't hit the reset button yet, but they aspire to be able to. Would that be a good person for co-parenting counseling?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
30:34
It would, and I might pause co-parenting and say, why don't each of you meaning really it's for that one person? But I'll say, why don't each of you take a few weeks, do some of the individual work? I will personally help them find providers that are trained in things that I am trained in. It's not just more of a typical individual therapist, it's someone that has worked with people who've gone through divorce Hopefully people who've had some mediation and collaborative divorce training anything, anything counts and do a few weeks there. Let's come back to the process, right, and sometimes people will sign a release that I can speak to their individual therapist and when I do that, here's another surprise to them because I have the co-parenting counseling hat. I am not. I'm only speaking about the child focused goals. I'm not going to say, well, this person has better self-regulation skills and in, your client interrupts a lot, or your client does better than the other one. They're expecting that.
31:39
Yeah, normally, if I'm either doing couple therapy or an individual therapist and I speak to let's say I'm a couple's therapist to one of my couples I'm working with, I speak to their individual therapy therapist. I am doing those things. I'm saying, wow, your client does this great with their partner in session. This is something you can work on with them individually and, because I have a release from their partner, let me share how they interact and communicate as well. That's a real team around the couple Co-parenting. There is a lot more boundaries, and the boundaries of my speaking to their individual therapist is these are the goals that your client has brought forth for little Johnny about. This is what transpired when they tried to speak about it. These were my recommendations. Here's the summary from the session. I have to be careful about my neutrality.
32:34
It can really devolve quickly with even the co-parenting counselor contacted the therapist and said you do this. So yeah, I don't want to do any harm, I only want to help. So I have these policies that are in place to make sure that I'm really helping.
Karen Covy Host
32:55
Well that that brings up another question that I've been wondering, like how long does this last? Typically, is this a lifetime commitment? Is it six weeks? Is it? Does it depend on the couple? What are people looking at and globally reaching out.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
33:20
Generally, it's up to a year. Then they will generally leave the process, go out and live a little bit, get into new relationships and then maybe come back when their tweaks needed. Generally, this is more of a shorter term process. Period of time leading up to the divorce. Quite often I'm getting people who've never had a co-parenting counselor and I'm the first one and they've been divorced for 10 years. So it's not like an individual client who comes in once a week for two years. Generally, they need to go back out and live. They've spent a lot of money on this team. They're divorced, they're individual therapists, they're co-parenting counselors. There's sort of a break from co-parenting. That's been my experience.
Karen Covy Host
34:06
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and you also. I want to highlight, for those who are listening, another point that you just made, which is that people can come to you long after their divorce is done if they're still having issues relating to each other as it pertains to the child. It sounds like you would be an appropriate professional to help them with that. There's never too long of a time in between the end of their marriage and when they can work on being better parents.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
34:38
I have something interesting to share with you. Okay, I have had co-grandparents come in. Imagine a scenario where you had a very divisive divorce. You've only had your own children, these co-parents. Now you have grandchildren and, say there's a I don't know a special event for your grandchildren that you may not be invited to, both of you because of your behavior and how you make everybody feel uncomfortable. It could be a wedding, it could be anything. So you're off the list and my job is I'm getting you back on the list. Let's get back on the list. Let's show everybody you can do this, that you're the matriarch and patriarch of the family. You want to hold those grandbabies.
35:22
And I've also had situations where it's been sad going away from co-grandparents, where parents who have children who are like 30 or 40, who are now parents themselves and one of them gets cancer, and those very divisive parents now have to do shift work with their daughter and the grandkids. I'll be there from eight to one, all right, I'll be there from one to seven until the spouse comes home because there is a need or a handicapped child. So, This co-parenting relationship extends to co-great great grandparents in some cases.
Karen Covy Host
36:02
Yeah, our face drops.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
36:07
A lot. But when you really think about people have an expectation that you can manage yourselves, and I want those grandparents to be at those events. I'm like we have to get you back on the list. They get excited for the first time and they begin to say, yeah, let's go out to lunch, all of us. And slowly the grandkids start to accept them. Now, their children that they've long since alienated and will only see individually, start to have little forays and like we'll do a barbecue and we'll do this, and it starts to build. So I've done that work too. I love that work.
Karen Covy Host
36:38
I mean, that sounds so cool to me. But, like I know people, I've had people that you know when they get married, it’s a struggle to invite both mom and dad. There was a situation where the grooms parents had a bitter divorce, and literally at the wedding, which was small, which made it even harder they had to sit, mom, at one end and kitty corner at the far end was dad, and meanwhile, their entire wedding, these young people, was dominated by the fear that there was going to be an explosion and it was going to ruin their day. Right, nobody wants to have to do that you don't want to do that to your kids.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
37:21
I'm hoping that future clients that are listening and other professionals as they hear us. We can tell you so many stories and examples and we do that and when I do it, I feel my body getting like I really want to make this change for them. I really want that couple former couple that had these kids, that made these kids, to be able to have a life with them and to be able to enjoy everything that they did as parents. Because I'm a parent, I know how difficult it is to manage it all. I really want to convey to them please do this, but, as we know, or please don't do this. Oh, our clients have to want to want this and in this case, for co-parenting for it to really work, both people have to do it. We should probably talk about parallel parenting.
Karen Covy Host
38:18
Yeah, let's hit that as well before we wrap up, because I think people have. They might have heard the term parallel parenting, but they're not really sure what that is. So, from your perspective, what is parallel parenting?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
38:32
Well, it's the worst-case scenario when at least one of the co-parents cannot co-parent effectively and at least one of them has to make a decision that we're going to have to use a co-parenting coordinator to be our intermediary. We will not have any family time, we will not attend parent conferences together. In the case of abuse, let's say there's a partner that's been abused. That person is certainly not putting them in a situation to experience that abuse again. A lot of co-parents have called the police on each other. They have boundaries of you can't even step on my driveway. So, in those instances we see sometimes it's for the best for at least one of them for protection not being sued or the cops showing up Two parallel parents. It's sad when that happens.
39:29
I remember having an individual therapy client a long time ago who had no choice but to co-parent sorry to parallel parent. And I said, as a therapist and in my other work, collaborative work with co-parents this isn't the Kelley. You would see that Kelley is. Let's do everything we can. Let's go out for ice cream, for you know it takes 10 minutes to have an ice cream. You know, have some munchkins with the back hatch of the car open at the end of the soccer game on the field. Five minutes. There are cases, though, Karen, as you know, that parallel parenting is what they need, and that's it's important to be able to speak honestly to people and give them guidance that they need, and also to let them know the limits of what we can do for them.
Karen Covy Host
40:07
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think from to just chime in from the legal perspective, parallel parenting is like you're parenting, you're each parenting your kids on your own track, right, and never the two shall meet. So, you parent your kids your way when they're at your house, your spouse does it or your ex does it their way when the kids are at their house, and there really is no building of the family that you spoke of. But what's important for people to realize, when they hear that a lot of people latch on and they go yeah, that's what I want, I just can't interact with this person. And they go into court expecting parallel parenting. And it doesn't exist as a legal concept. Got to tell you it's something that you know, it was sort of I don't know who made it up, but it came up in the context of trying to work together as parents or not but it's not a legal thing. You can't go to the judge and say I want parallel parenting. It's you're either co-parents or you're not right, and really, as parallel parents you're not, and it's a, and when you're doing that, you set up all kinds of guardrails and boundaries about. You know this is what's going to happen in this play in this household. This is what happens in this household, this is how there's interaction and everything.
41:20
It could be those parents where the exchanges of parenting time happen at the police station, and I mean it really is a worst-case scenario, but I suppose it's better than the child not having a relationship with one parent ever.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
Absolutely, I agree.
Karen Covy Host
That's all you can say about it. I think yes, Thank you, so this is all right. We could go on, and what I love about this conversation is that it's not only very helpful, I think, for people who are thinking about divorce, going through divorce, already divorced. It's not just about the clients or consumers, but it's also about the professionals too, Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about all of these different topics that we've talked about, and I think that professionals could get a lot from this conversation as well.
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
42:17
Well, thank you for having the forum. Thank you for providing this forum. I really appreciate your work. I've been following your work, so I was really happy to be invited to be on the podcast.
Karen Covy Host
42:29
And I'm very happy to have you. But, Kelley, before we wrap this up, where can people find you if they want to learn more about you, or your work, or parent? You know, parent coordination, co-parent counseling, all the things? Where's the best place for them to find?
Kelley Hopkins-Alvarez Guest
42:45
Of course, I have a website that would have sort of the complete list of everything KelleyHopkinsAlvarez. com. I also am on Instagram, Kelley Hopkins Alvarez LPC. I'm on Facebook, I am also on LinkedIn and I'm also on the Connecticut Council for Non-Adversarial Divorce website as well. So, I love questions. I have people who contact me from around the country and sometimes around the globe, and I'm happy to provide answers to some questions that you might have.
Karen Covy Host
43:17
That is lovely. And for those of you who are watching or listening, we're going to link to all of Kelley's places in the show notes. We're going to link to our family wizard. We will everything you'll be able to find right there. Kelley, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. This has been an amazing conversation. I really appreciate it. Thank you, you can, and for those of you who are out there watching or listening, if you enjoyed today's conversation, if you'd like to hear more conversations just like this, do me a big favor. Give this episode a thumbs up like subscribe. Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to seeing you again next time. Thank you.
