Episode Description - The 5 Stages of Divorce Grief You Need to Understand
Divorce can feel like an emotional freefall, especially because you don’t know what to expect or when the pain will stop. That’s precisely the problem that Oona Metz has set out to end in her book on divorce grief, entitled Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women.
As a licensed clinical social worker with decades of experience, Oona shares how her own divorce led her to create structured, therapist-led divorce support groups for women who desperately needed reassurance, guidance, and a sense that they weren’t alone. Through that work, Oona has identified five distinct phases of divorce grief that everyone who experiences a divorce will go through.
Like Elisabeth Kubler Ross’ five stages of grief, Oona’s five phases of divorce grief provide structure to what otherwise seems to be a chaotic experience. Identifying and understanding those phases of grief provides those navigating divorce with a roadmap through one of life's most disorienting experiences
In this podcast episode, Oona walks through how heartbreak, emotional ups and downs, healing, letting go, and moving forward actually show up in real life. She also offers practical insight into boundaries, high-conflict co-parenting, and dating after divorce, all with a focus on helping women regain clarity, confidence, and a sense of self.
If you or someone you love is navigating the choppy waters of divorce grief, this podcast episode will provide you with the structure and support you need to get through your challenges with more confidence and grace.
Show Notes
About Oona
Oona Metz is the author of Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women. She is a therapist with 30 years of clinical experience. For the past 15 years she has specialized in treating women navigating divorce. She leads three weekly divorce support groups and trains mental health professionals to lead them as well.
Connect with Oona
You can connect with Oona on LinkedIn at Oona Metz and on Facebook at Women Navigating Divorce. You can follow Oona on YouTube at Oona Metz and on Instagram at Oona Metz. To learn more about working with Oona, visit her website at Oona Metz.
New from Oona
Oona’s new book is what you need to support you through the emotional side of divorce. Order your copy now! Unhitched: The Essential Divorce Guide for Women.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Oona
- Oona Metz is a clinical social worker, who turned her own divorce into a mission—creating support groups that didn’t exist when she needed them most. Her groups focus on personal growth—not venting about ex-partners—and require clear individual goals.
- She knows what makes a divorce support group work—and why most fail to truly help people move forward.
- Oona explains that divorce grief follows five phases: heartbreak, emotional “roller coaster,” mending, letting go, and moving on.
- Heartbreak occurs whether you initiate the divorce or not, often after repeated unmet needs.
- The “roller coaster” phase involves intense, shifting emotions that must be felt and processed—not avoided.
- Mending focuses on self-care, identity rebuilding, supportive relationships, and setting healthy boundaries.
- Letting go is the hardest phase and involves releasing identity, expectations, and emotional attachment to the past.
- Moving on means reinvesting energy into yourself and life—dating should come after rediscovering who you are.
- The hardest step no one talks about—letting go of the life you thought you’d have.
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Transcript
The 5 Stages of Divorce Grief You Need to Understand
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
divorce recovery, stages of divorce grief, support, self discovery
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Oona Metz
Karen Covy: 1:39
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the extreme pleasure of speaking with Oona Metz. And Oona is a licensed clinical social worker with 30 years of clinical experience. She's also a certified group psychotherapist and a fellow in the American Group Psychotherapy Association with offices in Arlington and Brookline, Massachusetts. Oona has written extensively about divorce, group therapy, and parenting in her and her essays have appeared in publications, including Psychotherapy Networker, Cognizenti, The Los Angeles Review, Social Work Voice, and more. Oona is also the author of Unhitched, the Essential Divorce Guide for Women. For the past 15 years, Oona has specialized in treating women who are navigating divorce. She leads three weekly divorce support groups and trains other mental health professionals to lead them as well. Oona, welcome to the show.
Oona Metz: 3:01
Thank you so much for having me, Karen. I've really been looking forward to our conversation today.
Karen Covy: 3:07
As have I. And I want to start at the beginning, so to speak, and you know, ask you what's your backstory? Why divorce? What drew you to this area of work and study and all the things you do?
Oona Metz: 3:21
Oh, thanks for asking. So, I've been a therapist for about 30 years. And 17, 18 years ago, um, I went through my own divorce. And at the time, I thought to myself, gosh, I wish I looked around and I thought, I wish I could join a support group. I really wanted a support group. Um, I wanted to know I was going to be okay and that my daughter would be okay. And I just wanted to hear from other people who'd been through it. And there was nothing that existed at that time and that I could find anyway. And um, I was already trained in group therapy. I was running groups myself. And so I decided a few years later, after I got some space for my divorce, I decided, you know what? I'm gonna start my own group. And so I started a divorce support group in my practice, and it filled up so quickly that I started two more. And I am happy to say all three of those groups are still going today, meeting every single week. Um, I mean, except when I'm on vacation, but meeting weekly um for the last 15 years. Um literally, yes, so I've literally seen hundreds of women through the process of divorce and finally decided I had so much information kind of in my just bubbling around in my brain that I better write it down. And that's how my book was born. I decided I needed to write this all down, and it was a book that people needed.
Karen Covy: 4:55
That is awesome. And the groups I know they need to, because people come to me all the time and ask for support groups. Are yours virtual or in in person?
Oona Metz: 5:09
My groups are in person, right outside of Boston. I have trained people that are leading virtual groups, and I do have a whole list of virtual groups on my website, which is Oonametz.com. So anybody who's looking for a group, feel free to check out my website, the resource section, and you might be able to find a good group there.
Karen Covy: 5:30
That's awesome. So, if you don't mind, I'm fascinated with by the idea of the group dynamic. And how do you keep a group that's about a bunch of people talking about divorce from turning into just a total, you know, angry kind of bitch session for lack of better words.
Oona Metz: 5:54
That's a great question. And I think, you know, after I graduated with my master's um in social work, I went through a five-year-long certificate program in group therapy. So, I have a tremendous amount of experience leading groups. And I think one of the things that's really helpful is that I always meet with people twice individually before they come in. And we set up goals. I let them know how the group runs, but we also set up individual goals for them so that they are, they have an intention as they are working their way through the group and they know what they're working on. And if they in that session, if they say, Well, I just want to come and listen to how other people are doing it, I say, This isn't really the group for you. And if they say, I just want to be really angry about my ex, then I say, This isn't really the group for you. Like we really need to work, like, what are you gonna work on between you and you? Because you're not gonna be able to change somebody else, right? You could the only person you can change in this situation is yourself. And so, if somebody's, if your ex is being awful to you, it's not that we're gonna sit here and talk about how awful your ex is just on and on and on, but we're really gonna talk about so how do you manage that, right? How do you set up boundaries? How do you respond in a way that takes care of you and de-escalates um the conflict that's going on? And you know, of course, people have to talk about how upset they are and how maybe how angry they are or how sad they are, but we're not gonna stay there on and on and on forever. We're gonna really work to how do we then manage that? Right.
Karen Covy: 7:39
And well, you know, even in some of the presentations that I've given, and I've given a lot of them, there is that tendency for somebody to hijack the entire group dynamic and because they need to vent. They're upset, they've got all this emotion, but it doesn't help them or the group to just go down the rabbit hole, so to speak.
Oona Metz: 8:01
Right. Right. So there's a lot of techniques as a group therapist that I use to make sure that we don't have somebody who just hijacks the group.
Karen Covy: 8:11
I love that. And I think that's so important. And I hope people hear that to find a group. If you're going to go to a group, um, you need someone who's leading it who knows how to do it, right? It's this this isn't something that, you know, somebody that can say, oh, I went through my divorce, now I can help you. And they have they have no other training. I saw the eye roll on that one. Because unfortunately, there are a lot of people who think that that's what that's the only qualification they need. And it that's not that's not true. I mean, you spent years to try to get to this place.
Oona Metz: 8:48
Exactly. Exactly. Yes, I was running groups for 15 years before I even started a divorce group. So, you know, it does, it does take skills.
Karen Covy: 8:59
Yeah. And ask people, if is this a sort of a rolling entry? Like people could reach out to you and say, hey, do you have any spots open? And then they could just come in and start wherever you're at.
Oona Metz: 9:11
Yes. So, I have um, and I keep the groups very small as well, so that everybody has a chance to talk every week. Um, so I only have six people in at once, and they're all women. Um, and then when one woman leaves or kind of graduates, as we say, um it makes room for another person to come in. And it's very helpful to have people at different stages of divorce because the people who are further along in the process really offer so much wisdom and hope to the people who are just starting out. And the people who are just starting out offer a really wonderful perspective to the people who are further along who can kind of look at them and think, like, oh, right, I remember when I was in that stage. And boy, you know, sometimes when you're so close to your own experience, it's hard to see how much progress you've made. But when a new member comes into the group and is just crying, crying, crying, the person who's been there for six months or a year can say, like, oh yeah, I remember that. I remember that. Boy, I have made progress. So it's wonderful to have the um difference, you know.
Karen Covy: 10:23
That that's beautiful. And I would encourage anyone who's in your area to go check out your group because I'm sure it's got to be fabulous. But speaking of crying, that gives me something that I really wanted to talk to you about. And I'm so excited about this because I know you have a new book coming out. Um, yes, yes. And in the book, you talk about the five stages of divorce grief. Can you tell us about that? What is that and how does it all work?
Oona Metz: 10:55
Sure. Um, so as I was writing the book, which is called Unhitched, The Essential Divorce Guide for Women, I was writing the book and I got to this part of the book, and I thought, I really want to provide a map at this point in the book for people so that they know that they're not going to get stuck in the really awful part of the divorce, which is the beginning and the and the middle are can be really treacherous, right? And torturous for people. But I want them to know that there's an evolution and that they can get to another stage of divorce grief. Um, so I looked at all the literature, and a lot of people were still using the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross um grief model, which was um made in the 1970s. And, you know, I think it's a good model, but I don't think it quite worked for divorce grief. And so that's when I really began to think about and develop my own model based on the hundreds of women that I have seen. Um, so my model is five phases, and like uh any model of grief, you know, you don't end one phase on a Tuesday and begin the next one on a Wednesday, you know, and not everybody will go through all five phases, and you may go back and forth a little bit. You may go one, two, three, back to two, three, four, five, back to three, you know. So, but I think in general, people tend to go from the beginning to the end. Um, and the first phase of the model, I think, is really heartbreak. And it's heartbreak whether you initiate the divorce or not.
Karen Covy: 12:38
Now say more about that because everybody assumes that if you're the person who initiated the divorce, you're over it, you just want to be done.
Oona Metz: 12:48
Yeah. So nobody is standing at the altar or walking down the aisle at their wedding, thinking to themselves, gee, I hope one day I get divorced. When you initiate divorce, you're only doing so after a series of heartbreaks. And they may be smaller heartbreaks, like every time you're not seen, every time you're not heard, every time you're criticized, every time you're betrayed, every time your needs are not met, until you get to the heartbreaking decision. Because I think I work primarily with women, I think, especially for women, they do not want to get divorced. They try for years, my experience has been, they try for years to improve their marriage. And so it really is a heartbreaking decision to make that decision, even if you're the one who initiates it. And certainly if you're yeah, go ahead, Karen.
Karen Covy: 13:47
Oh, yeah, no, I was just gonna say that, you know, when you make this decision and you announce it, no one sees the past heartbreak. It's just it looks immediate. It looks like, oh, you just woke up one morning and said, I think I'll get a divorce.
Oona Metz: 14:03
Yeah, which I have never, I have never seen before. I just don't think that's the way people operate, you know.
Karen Covy: 14:13
No, I've never seen it. And I know don't even get me started that the legislators rail against, oh, we're gonna get rid of no fault divorce, we're gonna have waiting periods, we're gonna have all these things that make divorce harder because divorce is too easy. I'm sorry, I don't know anyone who's been through with it that says it's easy.
Oona Metz: 14:30
Zero people. It is not easy, it is not easy, and those laws that are gonna make it harder are just gonna put people in danger. It's just gonna put kids in danger and people in danger, you know, as they're staying together to wait out the period, but having to tell, you know, oh, it's awful.
Karen Covy: 14:48
I know. So the first stage is heartbreak, and it sounds like that can last for quite a long time.
Oona Metz: 14:56
It can, it can. And I think, you know, it's more or you're feeling more or less heartbreak. It's not that you then don't feel heartbreak and move to the next stage, but I think it's the primary thing you feel right there in the beginning. And again, if you're not the one who initiates, and I've seen many women where all of a sudden there's kind of an abrupt initiation or they find out about an affair or a financial betrayal, and that can be an enormous heartbreak as well, right? So whether you initiate or not, it's a heartbreak in the beginning. Nobody wants to get divorced, nobody plans this for their life.
Karen Covy: 15:37
Right. And once people start moving out of that heartbreak, what's the next phase?
Oona Metz: 15:43
Then I think the second stage is really what I call the roller coaster. And I took that directly from what the women in my group have talked about in this stage. The roller coaster is the roller coaster of feelings, where you are feeling sad and you're feeling mad and you're feeling confused and rejected. But you know what? Oh, maybe a little bit of relief too, but then sad and then mad and then oh, a little empowered when you actually fix the faucet on your sink for the first time. And then, you know, so I think like a real roller coaster, you're going up and you're going down and you're going up. And what I want to say to women and I talk about in the book is like this is normal. It's normal that you're feeling this much and this intensity, and this will not last forever. But it is normal to have all of these feelings right now. And some of them are expected and some of them are unexpected, right? You have a big court date coming up. Of course, you're gonna feel fearful or anxious, right? And then sometimes you wake up in the morning and like it's a sunny day, um, and you feel like a little hope. Great.
Karen Covy: 16:59
Yes, you know, right. Yeah, it's it it's very up and down. And but people's tendency when they're when they're on the up, okay, I can maybe I can do this, but when they're on the down part, the tendency is to deny the feelings and say, no, no, no, no, no, I can't feel this. I'll deal with it later, I'll deal with it later. Talk to me about that. I mean, how do how what's the healthiest way to deal with the ups and downs?
Oona Metz: 17:26
Yeah, I think that's so true, is that I and I also think people are busy, they feel like they don't have time for their feelings or they're taking care of their kids, they're at their job. It's so important that you allow your feelings to come, you know, like a wave, you know, as I always say, like feelings aren't gonna kill you. Um, and I also say you have to feel it to heal it, right? And so I think we're so important not to criticize your own feelings, not to deny your own feelings, but really to allow them to either talk about them, journal about them, see a therapist and talk about them. But really that that's a way to process them is acknowledging them, talking about them, writing about them, making sure that you are understanding what they are and knowing that your feelings have something to teach you. They're not there to, you know, drag you down, they're there to teach you something. You have something to learn from your feelings.
Karen Covy: 18:27
How do you but how do you not get stuck there, right? So we feel the feelings, but the tendency is to you know just get dragged down in the muck, get depressed. Life sucks. This is always going to be this way. I mean, we immediately catastrophize. So, what can somebody do if they're feeling those negative emotions? They don't want to push them away, but they don't want to stay there either.
Oona Metz: 18:53
Right, right, right. Great question, which actually brings us to phase three. So phase three is what I call mending. And that's really a time where people are turning their attention away from their ex and their divorce because, as you know, being in a divorce takes so much attention, and there's so much attention spent on what is the ex doing and what is the ex saying, and what is going on with the divorce. And I think mending is a time to really turn your attention either back to yourself or to yourself for the first time. Sometimes, especially women, we're so socialized to be thinking about the other person constantly, right? That it's oftentimes we come last. And I think the mending phase is where we're really thinking about how do we mend those little holes in our heart? You know, what are the things we need, who are the people we need to surround ourselves with who give us good energy? What are the activities that we can go to or get back to that we may have lost during our marriage or during our divorce that bring us some sense of meaning or purpose? You know, what other relationships do we need to maybe um renegotiate some boundaries on?
Karen Covy: 20:16
I love that you said renegotiate the boundaries on because divorce is a great sifting of your social circles, so to speak. And a lot of people, I mean, that for so many people is as hard or harder than losing their spouse because they're losing this whole cow cadre of friends as well, or other relationships.
Oona Metz: 20:40
Sometimes they're in-laws, yep.
Karen Covy: 20:43
So, how do you go about renegotiating those boundaries in a healthy way? Because I think a lot of people think that a boundary means no, stay away. Don't ever say that to me again. And that's not exactly my idea of a boundary, but you're the expert. Tell me, how can people renegotiate boundaries in a healthy way?
Oona Metz: 21:05
Right. Great question. And I love um, there are two books that I love about this, um, that are both, I included both of them in my book. One is Melissa Urban's The Book of Boundaries, it's called, um, and one is Nedra Tawab. Um, I think it's called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, both wonderful, wonderful books. Um, so one of the things that I think is so important about boundaries is that you're not telling the other person what they can or cannot do. What you're doing is telling the person what you will or will not tolerate. So you're not saying to the person, you're not allowed to insult me on a phone call. What you're saying is if you insult me again on a phone call, I'm going to hang up. I'm happy to talk to you when you're not being um insulting to me, but I'm not going to talk to you while you are being insulting to me. So I think that's one really important part of boundaries. I also really encourage people to set boundaries when they're in a calm place, a reasonable place, you know. So if somebody's insulting you on the phone and you're screaming at them, I'm hanging up on you, you know, that's not really the greatest way to do it, but rather to say, I'm gonna hang up now and really collect yourself. And then to say, from now on, when we're talking on the phone, I'm gonna hang up if I hear you insulting me. I'm happy to talk to you if we can talk in a reasonable, rational way.
Karen Covy: 22:41
That makes so much sense. Okay, so we're up to the third phase or stage. What's stage four?
Oona Metz: 22:46
Stage four is so important. It's the letting go stage.
Karen Covy: : 22:52
Okay. How do you do that?
Oona Metz: 22:53
Yes, how do you do it? There is so much to let go of in a divorce, right? You're letting go of your spouse, but you know, you're also you're letting go of the hope that things are gonna get better, but you're also letting go of your identity of being a married person. You're letting go of your identity of being part of an intact family. You know, there's so many things to let go of in terms of identity pieces, too.
Karen Covy: 23:24
Yeah, and you're letting go of the dream that you had that you were gonna live happily ever after. This was all gonna work out, and right, we all want that.
Oona Metz: 23:33
Yes, we carry a myth, especially when we're married. We carry a myth that we know what the future is gonna be like, right? So if you ask a married couple, so what is what's happened in your future, they'll say, Oh, right, well, we're going, you know, we're gonna travel and we're gonna retire together. And they and we all do it, right? We all have a myth about what we're gonna do in our in our future, and divorce kind of shatters that, right? So it brings reality in in where you don't really know what's gonna happen in your future.
Karen Covy: 24:11
Although it's so interesting how the human mind works because we all think we know, but we don't know.
Oona Metz:
Exactly, it's a myth. That's what I'm saying.
Karen Covy:
We could, you know, you could be happily married and you know, get up one morning and one of you has a heart attack, and that changes everything, or you know, you never know what's gonna happen, and it can happen like that in a heartbeat. So, but we like to think that we can write the script and right, right? I wish we could, but yeah.
Oona Metz: 24:35
And I think you know, you asked how do you let go, right? And I think letting go, first of all, you have to do the first stages first, right? Like you have to do all the feelings, and it's hard to let go if you're still so angry, but you're not allowing yourself to have that feeling, or you're still criticizing yourself for having that feeling, or if you haven't done the mending yet, it's very hard to let go. And I think, you know, if you think about like being on a trapeze, right? Like when you're on a trapeze, you don't let go unless there's something else you can hang on to, right? Like the whole point of a trapeze is that you then you let go only so that you can catch something else. And so, I think it's similar in a divorce. There has to be other things that you're holding on to or you're investing in, which brings us to the next phase. The final phase, which is the moving on phase. And I think moving on doesn't mean you've forgotten that you're divorced. It doesn't mean you know you never think about it again. It's always going to be part of your story, but it's about in taking your time and energy and investing them in something else.
Karen Covy: 25:52
Okay, so this brings up a question I just have to ask because so many people are they're in going through a divorce and they say, when can I date it again? When should I date again? And there's a whole range of opinions about when that's good and when that's not. What do you think?
Oona Metz: 26:10
Um, I have some opinions on that. I think uh I think that um if you're early on in a divorce, I think if you feel like your heart is tender, I really encourage you to wait. But actually, I not even wait. I encourage you to date yourself first. I encourage you to buy yourself flowers, I encourage you to get dressed up on a Friday night. I encourage you to go out and do things that you like to do and rediscover. Because a lot of times, especially if people have been in long-term marriages, they almost don't even know what it is they like to do. So, in my marriage, I always watched football with my husband every Sunday. That's what we would do. But I don't really like football. But so what do you like to do? Well, what I really like to do is I love to be outdoors and I love to, you know, whatever the thing is, right? So, can you figure out what it is that you love to do before you jump into dating somebody who's gonna have their own agenda, right? Can you figure out do you like pizza or do you like Thai food, right? Before you're dating somebody who says, Oh, I want to go to this pizza place, and you realize I don't like pizza. I don't want I'd like I'd rather go to a Thai place, right?
Karen Covy: 27:34
Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think you know, another tell for me is when if you're going out on a date and the only thing you want to talk about is your ex.
Oona Metz: 27:45
Oh yeah, no, right.
Karen Covy: 27:47
That's right, that doesn't go well for anybody.
Oona Metz: 27:50
No, it really doesn't. It really doesn't. And if you're going out with somebody who only talks about their ex, red flag, red flag, right, yeah.
Karen Covy: 28:00
Right, 100%.Because they have, I mean, that to me is the behavior that tells you they haven't done the work, they're not right over it yet, right?
Oona Metz: 28:09
That's right, that's right. And sometimes people will say, Well, I just want to casually date, but they can get, you know, drawn into, and one of the things I see is sometimes people repeating patterns if they date too soon, and they're suddenly dating somebody who's so familiar to them and very similar to their ex, or going in completely the opposite direction, which is just really more of a reaction to the ex than a real centering and grounding of like, who am I and what do I want and need in a relationship right now?
Karen Covy: 28:45
How do they go about breaking the pattern? Because the problem is when we're in it, we don't see it, right? So you as an outside therapist can look and go, you're dating the same guy in a different skin, right? Yeah, but they can't see it to them. It's just somebody that feels good, that feels familiar. How do how do you as a human identify whether you're just doing the same thing over again or whether this is, you know, got potential?
Oona Metz: 29:13
Right. I mean, I would say one thing is to go slowly. Oftentimes people are in such a rush when they get out there and date. And I always say it takes a very long time to know somebody, right? You have to know somebody. I mean, when you first meet somebody, they're showing you their best self, right? But to really know somebody, you have to know them when they're sick, right? Or when you're sick, or when you have something you're excited about you want to celebrate, or when they have something they're excited about, or when you have a real disappointment, you know, that something happens, or when there's something really stressful that happens in your life. Like there's a lot of different scenarios that it takes to get to know somebody because they can be wonderful when everything's great, but all of a sudden there's a stressful moment and you see a whole different side of them, right? So that's why I would say like there's no rush here. You can just take things really slowly and get to know somebody over time.
Karen Covy: 30:21
Okay. Let me play devil's advocate with you. What about the woman who says to you, but Oona, there, I'm getting older, my clock is ticking, and there aren't so many guys out there. I've got to, I've got to get out there now. I I can't let this wait. What do you say to that?
Oona Metz: 30:39
Well, you know, uh you can, I mean, I think it's a little bit different for women who are in their 30s and their biological clock is ticking and they really are invested in having kids. And I've had a few of those people in my group, and that can be like a double heartbreak if, you know, the woman who gets divorced and she's 38 and a half, you know, and then feels like, oh my God, I want to have kids. I need to date somebody and get married and then get pregnant. And, you know, that that's one thing. And the other thing is, you know, when I say go slowly, I don't mean have one date and then wait another year to have the second date. I just mean, you know, be measured, be measured. And it's better to take your time and find the right person than to go quickly and find the wrong person. And I think, you know, taking time to date yourself first is also another great way of making sure that you're gonna pick the right person. Because I would say the other red flag, in addition to like the ex all I mean, the your person you're dating only talking about their ex, the other red flag is if you're your primary concern is whether or not that person likes you rather than do you like them? Right? Do you like them? Not just do they like you, right?
Karen Covy: 32:08
Yeah. That's and that's such an interesting question to ask yourself because I think a lot of people they just don't. They have to gloss over that part and say, oh, but he's wonderful, he's this, he's that, you know, and right. It's almost like they're talking themselves into it.
Oona Metz: 32:29
Right, right. I also ask people to think about what um what does the person you're dating bring out? What qualities do they bring out in you? You know, are you do you become more anxious because you don't know if they're gonna call? You don't know if they're gonna, if they're, you know, are you becoming more anxious or are you becoming somebody that you really like? You know, are you becoming more free or more um generous or more, you know, what are the things that the what qualities kind of bubble to the surface when you're with that person?
Karen Covy: 33:03
I love that because some, you know, sometimes people bring out the best in us and sometimes they bring out the worst in us. And I think we've both seen relationships on both sides of that, and you definitely want to be with somebody who brings out the best in you, you feel good in, good with.
Oona Metz: 33:19
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Karen Covy: 33:21
So you've laid out these five stages of divorce grief. In your experience, where do people get stuck the most?
Oona Metz: 33:31
I think people oftentimes get stuck with letting go. That's where I see a lot of it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, heartbreak, you know, moves into roller coaster and people still have roller, you know, have a heartbreak in the roller coaster phase. It's not that the heartbreak goes away, but they might move into a roller coaster phase. And I think, you know, many, many people move to mending. Sometimes people get stuck in roller coaster and they don't do the mending. Um, but I think the letting go is can be really hard for people. And you know, if you don't let go, you can end up kind of bitter and giving your ex even more power than they already had, right?
Karen Covy: 34:12
Yeah.
Oona Metz: 34:12
So, so important.
Karen Covy: 34:14
They don't think about it that way, that their ex by them hanging on, right? They're giving their ex power even longer.
Oona Metz: 34:23
Right, right, right. You know, and sometimes people are in, I mean, I want to acknowledge that sometimes people are in a high conflict custody situation where, you know, the ex makes it nearly impossible to let go because every, you know, every handoff is full of conflict, and every drop-off is full of conflict, and every time you're trying to set the calendar, it's full of conflict. And so that can be really hard. It's so hard to let go when you're in a high conflict divorce and you're um co-parenting with somebody who's still high conflict.
Karen Covy: 35:00
Yes, right, right. So, what do you do when you find yourself in that situation? Because I know so many people who are, and it's how do you pull yourself away, let go of that relationship, protect yourself and your kids when you have to deal with this like a couple times a week or every other week, however, often you have to deal with this person.
Oona Metz: 35:25
Right, right. I mean, part of it is time, right? But I think part of it is also, do you know the work of, I'm sure you do, the work of Bill Eddy, who has the BIFF - brief, informative, friendly, and firm. I love that framework for conversations. And I think that is a really helpful sense of letting go. Um, so when your ex is sending you a text that's you know, four paragraphs long, and one paragraph is about the schedule, and the other three paragraphs are insulting you, you know, to really this whole practice of really responding to, no, I can't pick the kids up on Tuesday and change the schedule. And ignoring the other three paragraphs that are full of insults and criticisms, you know, and it takes a lot of practice to not engage because sometimes people like that will just try to hook you in, you know, over and over and over again, which is a form of control, right? To hook you in. And so for you to unhook, it takes a lot of practice. And I help women do it all the time in the group, you know. Um, one of the things I do is I say, I want you to use your powers of prediction because you know your ex better than anybody else, right? And so what do you think is gonna happen if your ex sends you three paragraphs of insults and you defend yourself and say, no, actually, that's not true. I didn't do that, I never was like that. I, you know, and then besides, you did this and you did that. I said, use your powers of prediction. What do you believe is going to happen if you send that text? Is your ex going to say, Oh my gosh, you're right. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to insult you. And you know what? I'm gonna really pay attention to that in the future and not insult you anymore. Is your ex gonna say that? Or is your ex gonna double down and be even more insulting? So, think about what you want your goal to be. And you know, it may be sometimes you want your goal to be that you want to vent and just tell your ex like it is, but if you want the goal to be less conflict, then don't respond at all. Just ignore all of those insults.
Karen Covy: 37:51
It's like pouring fuel on the flame, right? It just makes it, it just makes it worse, but it's so hard to do because you take those insults in and I this is so unfair. I didn't do that, or I did and that's our natural tendency. And it's so hard to break that.
Oona Metz: 38:09
It's so hard to break it, but practicing really helps. And again, it's that boundary setting of I will not respond, or you may send me your, you know, sometimes like uh I have people where on the telephone it gets really nasty, and so those people I say, you know what? Do the scheduling over email, don't do it on the telephone because it just gets too nasty. And sometimes with email, people can slow down enough to know, and sometimes they know if there's a record of it, they're not gonna be quite as nasty, right? And there it is on paper. So, when they say, I never said that, you know. Well, actually, look at our, oh excuse me, sorry. Look at our um, look at our email from you know, yeah, last Thursday, and you'll see it.
Karen Covy: 39:01
Which is why I am such a big proponent of the co-parenting apps, because they keep a record that can't be changed. Like nobody can go back into an email and tamper with it and say, you know, that it wasn't this, it was that. No, everything is just set. And so, and they even Our Family Wizard is one of the it's my personal favorite, and it's got I love the tonometer, right? When you're sending the text or whatever, to do you really want to say it that way, you know, warning, and you get the little red light, and you're like, oh, okay, all right, maybe not, and cooler heads can prevail. So that's yes, but uh continuing to co-parent with a high conflict person, it's a challenge, and it it's a challenge until your kids age out and even beyond. Um I think all that changes is that you have to deal with them less after your kids are 18. But Oona, this has been wonderful. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy of your book. Um it sounds so helpful. If people want to learn more about you or your groups or your book or anything, where should they go? How can they find you?
Oona Metz: 40:14
Uh, thanks so much. Um, so the book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I'm really encouraging people to go to their independent bookstores who need our business. Um, but if you don't have an independent bookstore, um, you can get it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or order it from Target. Um and um my website is Oonametz.com. That's o-o-n-a-m-e-t-z.com. And I have a lot of free resources there. So, if you are interested in a group, you can certainly go there. And I have a lot of podcasts there, and this podcast will be there, and um articles that I've written, and um legal, financial resources, mental health resources, and it's all free. You don't have to put in your email or anything to get any of my resources. So, I encourage people to go hang out there, you know?
Karen Covy: 41:05
That's awesome. And I would encourage everyone listening to do exactly that. Go hang out there. Everything is going to be linked in the show notes. So, you can go right to Oona's website. You can go right to her book. Oona, thank you again for sharing so generously on the podcast. We really appreciate it.
Oona Metz: 41:21
Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure talking to you.
Karen Covy: 41:26
You're welcome. And as I've had as much fun doing this as you have, I'm sure. Um, I love picking your brain. But, anyways, I digress. So, for those of you who are out there, if you've enjoyed this conversation as much as we have, do me a big favor. Give the podcast, give this episode a thumbs up, like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to hearing you're to talking with you again next time.
