Episode Description - How Financial Advocacy Can Get You a Better Divorce Settlement
Navigating the financial maze of divorce can feel overwhelming - until you discover the transformative power of strategic financial advocacy.
Certified Divorce Financial Analyst Rhonda Noordyk has created a strategic approach to finance that goes beyond traditional divorce financial planning and into the realm of financial advocacy. Rhonda goes beyond the numbers to actually advocate for her clients, asking tough questions during their mediation or negotiation that helps them uncover details they might otherwise overlook.
In this podcast episode, Rhonda explains what it means to be a "financial advocate" and why her role is critical in high-stakes divorce negotiations.
From questioning the validity of income calculations to identifying gaps in transparency, Rhonda dives into the strategies she uses to level the playing field for her clients.
Whether it’s challenging business valuations, reviewing support numbers, or guiding clients through mediation, Rhonda’s insights shine a light on how strategy—not guesswork—can create better outcomes in your divorce.
Show Notes
About Rhonda
Rhonda Noordyk, CDFA® is a well-respected divorce financial strategist. She is known internationally for her work in pioneering a path for women to navigate through the financial aspects of the divorce process. As a strategist, Rhonda helps her clients determine their next best financial move.
Connect with Rhonda
You can connect with Rhonda on LinkedIn at Rhonda Noordyk, on Facebook at Rhonda Noordyk and follow her on Instagram at Rhonda Noordyk. To learn more about Rhonda’s work visit her website at Rhonda Noordyk Financial Divorce Advocate and grab a copy of Rhonda’s book Bold Beginnings: A Journey of Divorce and Financial Confidence.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Rhonda
- Rhonda Noordyk works as a financial advocate and strategist for women going through divorce, helping them understand and navigate the financial aspects of divorce settlements while ensuring they have a voice in the process.
- She developed the "BRIDGE" method for divorce financial planning which includes: Breathe and build your team, Review financials, Identify gaps, Dial in data, Guide to finish strong, and Exhale.
- Rhonda emphasizes the value of having the right team in place (legal, financial, emotional support) and argues that while it may seem more expensive upfront, having the right experts can actually save money by being more efficient and focused.
- She participates in mediations alongside her clients to help them understand financial implications in real-time and think through options clearly when emotions are running high.
- A key part of her work involves questioning income calculations for support payments, including examining how bonuses, retirement contributions, and other forms of compensation should be counted.
- Rhonda advocates for careful examination of business valuations and other financial reports, noting that "neutral" experts may provide middle-ground numbers that aren't necessarily accurate or beneficial for her clients.
- She helps clients understand if pursuing certain financial investigations (like hiring forensic accountants) is worth the cost by analyzing potential return on investment.
- Through her strategic approach, she has helped clients increase business valuations by significant amounts (sometimes seven figures) by knowing which questions to ask and which financial "levers" to pull.
- She emphasizes the importance of addressing variable expenses for children (extracurriculars, driver's ed, etc.) in divorce agreements, as these can be significant ongoing costs not covered by basic support.
- Rhonda helps simplify complex financial arrangements, such as retirement account divisions (QDROs), to minimize unnecessary costs and complications while ensuring fair outcomes.
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Transcript
How Financial Advocacy Can Get You a Better Divorce Settlement
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
financial advocate, divorce strategy, transparency
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Rhonda Noordyk
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today is Rhonda Noordyk, and Rhonda is a CDFA and a well-respected divorce financial strategist. She's known internationally for her work in pioneering a path for women to navigate through the financial aspects of the divorce process. As a strategist, Rhonda helps her clients determine their next best financial move. Rhonda is also the author of the best-selling book Bold Beginnings and the host of the podcast Disrupting Divorce Conversations for Women. Rhonda, welcome to the show.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
01:14
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Karen. I'm glad to be here.
Karen Covy Host
01:18
I am excited to have you I'm especially excited because you are unique. I have had other financial analysts certified divorce financial analysts on the show, but you call yourself a financial strategist and lately you've kind of owned a new role, which is financial advocate. So I want to know all about that. What is a financial advocate? What do you do? And I know you've been doing it for a long time under the radar but now you're out in the open, so I want to talk about it. Just start wherever you want to start.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
01:57
Yeah, no, absolutely. So. It's interesting, right, because I think, when I look back over my life, right, I've always been the person who really wants to be able to essentially advocate, to fight for what is right, and we could say there's a lot of different. How can you ever do that within the divorce space? Because nothing's ever right and nobody's ever happy, and I don't necessarily totally agree with that. And so when I started my business 10 years ago, I found myself asking the tough questions and pushing the envelope a little bit and challenging the status quo.
02:30
And as time has gone over the last decade, I've really been able to, I think, authentically step into that Like when you're first starting, you're like, gosh, I don't want to upset people and I still don't but at the same time, you're a lot more cautious, you're a lot more hesitant to maybe say what you're really thinking or what you're really seeing. And so, as this says, you know, journey has unfolded. I've been able to, after lots of clients and lots of conversations and lots of interactions. It just continues to further build your confidence where you can say the things that maybe nobody else wants to say, and so that's where I often find myself in these conversations. It's helping ask the questions that again, nobody maybe else is willing to ask.
Karen Covy Host
03:13
Okay. So I have to ask you what do you mean by that? What kinds of questions are people not willing to ask? I mean not only the clients, but also the other divorce professionals.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
03:24
Yeah, absolutely so. One example right is what are we using for income? Because I will always say hey, listen, the output in the support calculators are only going to be as good as the numbers we're putting in. So what are we using? And it isn't, it is what it is. You run the calculations and there's always some wiggle room, there's always negotiating around what are we using? And so, rather than just crunching the numbers and running the calculations and then presenting them to the clients, I will review them, give them some feedback and say okay, can you go back and ask them for this scenario and this one and this one, because I see the bigger picture, and so the attorneys will run them, and then I can help empower my client about hey, here's the range, here's what we're looking at. If it goes down this path, here's what we're looking at, and it just really helps with that. So that would be the first thing.
04:15
The second thing is I see people engaging in what I call the DAM method. Now, I don't swear, so there's an acronym, and the acronym is related to discovery and I'm sure that, like when you were in the legal world, right, that was a process and it still is a process, and a lot of times people think that that's black and white, like hey, it's discovery and everybody's got to be transparent and everybody's got to disclose. But what I was seeing was that that's not necessarily the case, and what I mean by that is there are people that can dodge the disclosure, they can avoid getting assets valued and they can misrepresent information, and the biggest question is who is holding these people accountable?
Karen Covy Host
05:03
Good question.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
05:03
Right That is the frustration part. And I think for me, my biggest thing is with women in particular. Women make really good decisions when they have all the information, not when they're bullied into believing that they have, you know, the transparency. Not till they're bullied into believing that they're getting a good deal or that they're going to be just fine and that they just need to get it over with. And they just concede and all of a sudden they're backed up against the wall and they're like I just feel like you know, I have to agree and I'm like, okay. First of all, how did we ever get to that point? Like, let's just cut that off at the pass, ask, ask the right questions, make sure that we've got the transparency, and sometimes it's a matter of finding the right attorney who's willing to do what they need to do. And secondly, we do actually work with private investigators who can help us with financial asset searches. That then can help direct the attorneys on where to be looking. So it's been a really interesting opportunity and we've been able to move the needle significantly. The one other example around this I want to share really quick because I just think it's so important.
06:08
I just got off the call today with a client and she's on the East Coast. Her husband owns a business, but she was involved with the business, so technically right, I mean they own it together but he was kind of the lead and they had a valuation done by a business valuation expert. Now a lot of times we get those reports back and we're like, hey, they're the expert, here's the number. But what if we know what levers to be pulling in that report? Because it's not objective.
06:34
And if we, so we just moved the business valuation for my client a million dollars because we pulled in the right expert who knew what questions to be asking, that then we moved the needle. And then I take that information and say, okay, now that we have this information, now how does that fit into her picture? And that's when the strategy on my end comes into place at that level. But I'm always strategizing it's the people. Do we have the right people, the right process and the right positioning? And when we have all those things working, you know, in harmony, it really works out well to be able to position my clients to get a better outcome.
Karen Covy Host
07:12
Yeah, I There's so much that I want to dig into in what you've just said. Right, because and what I want people to hear is that you get the earlier in the process they can get someone like you involved, the better off they're going to be, because, to your point, the data that goes into any calculation whether it's support, whether it's a business valuation, whether it's the valuation of any other asset, no matter what it is the earlier you can get the right help involved, the better off you're going to be, because, as you said, garbage in garbage out right. So if you put bad numbers in, you get who knows what out right. So let's dig into, though you know. To stay with the first example about the support, for a moment, how can you change the number? Isn't income just income? What do you mean by? What are you using for income? Can you explain that?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
08:11
Yeah, no, absolutely. So let's say, for example right, somebody has a job, right W-2 income and they have a bonus, right. So the question is okay, are they including the bonus, are they not? He's going to say, oh well, it's not guaranteed. We're going to say, historically, over the last 10 years he's gotten the bonus right. So there's some creative ways that we can look at that. So that's one example.
08:33
The other thing is when we look at her income right, if she's working part-time or not at all a lot of times they'll say, hey, we want to impute income to her, which I always say right is like well, either you get a part-time job or you're working full-time and you have actual dollars, or they're going to apply monopoly money to you. What would you rather have? Because either way, I mean they're not going to probably put zero on the balance sheet for income because they're going to say she's got a potential to make something Right. So the question is what is the something? And, furthermore, how much of an impact does that make? Like, if we crunch the numbers and it doesn't matter if she's making 30 or 80 because his income is so much higher, then why are we arguing about it? We can concede on the issue, right.
Karen Covy Host
09:17
That's beautiful. Because the other piece that most people don't include in their calculations of how is this going to go is what is it going to cost you to get that? If you can concede a $30,000 or an $80,000 income whatever it is, because you know the numbers well enough to know it doesn't matter then you are saving a boatload in attorney's fees from keeping your attorney from arguing about that issue and going to court and saying, no, we do impute income, yes, we do, no, we don't. And then you've got this whole big fight. If it doesn't matter anyway, why are you doing it?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
10:01
Right, I mean, and sometimes it feels like a bigger issue right than it is, because we don't necessarily know what the bottom line number. You know what it's going to be, so I totally agree. And plus, I think it gives women the ability to say, okay, I have done my homework, I understand what the impact is and they can decide is it worth? You know, if I'm taking it's a $50 a month haircut right off the top, do I care? Am I going to be okay based on you know my numbers on my budget and things like that? So yeah, it's really an important conversation.
Karen Covy Host
10:32
Yeah, I agree 100%. So you know that I would add as a lawyer is that, yes, every state has a guideline support calculation, but they all define in the statute what they consider to be income and it's not necessarily the same as what your spouse considers to be income. So is that something that you help people figure out?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
10:59
Yeah. So that's one of the ones where I would say, hey, I'm going to throw the ball back to the attorney, but I'm going to give the client the ability to ask that question and say, hey, can you find out from your attorney how they're going to look at? What are they including as far as income? Because I feel like there's a lot of times when they'll say all the income? Well, okay, yes, and then if it's dividend income from investments, well, if those are getting split, I don't really feel right about advocating that that should be part of the income, because she's going to get the assets that then she could derive that income herself from the dividends, for example.
Karen Covy Host
11:30
Right, but some you know, for example in the state of Illinois, just because somebody takes a chunk of their income and diverts it into a 401k every year because that's a smart financial move, that doesn't mean it's diverted for child support.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
11:47
That's right, that's an ad back. So, yes, and that's why the pay stubs are important, right, because we're like, okay, we can't just look at what's being deposited, you know, net into the account. We need the pay stubs so we can see are they diverting it to a retirement? Are they doing a contribution to a charitable organization that their company, you know, is it the United Way? Right, where they're like, oh hey, by the way, you have an opportunity to give, and suddenly we see this large amount that's being donated to another organization.
Karen Covy Host
12:33
So, absolutely, you know, those are all really good questions to be asking, and it sounds like it's the details that you dive into, and what I love about the work that you do is that it's strategy, right?
There's a big difference between looking at numbers and you explaining to somebody what the numbers mean which I know is something you do too but to go that extra step and say, okay, here's what it means, but now what do you do with the information? How do you create a strategy that's likely to get you whatever outcome it is that you're looking for, right? That makes a huge difference. Let me ask you a question. isn't that what a lawyer is going to do?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
13:07
You know, gosh, I get that question quite a bit right, and the way that I explain that is this Like we could all be kind of like reading off of the same sheet of music, right, and I'm going to be singing soprano and you, as an attorney, are going to be singing alto. There are going to be some key things that we're all looking at, right, like I'm not over here doing my totally my own thing. There's still a cadence in which I'm following. However, everything that I'm looking at is through the lens of the financial aspect and also knowing, okay, how is that going to impact? It's the vision of knowing how is that going to impact her after this is over. So, quick example I was part of mediation.
13:44
I do attorney assisted mediations with my clients. We were in one recently and this was where the advocacy piece was coming in, and I said to the attorney I said, okay, I'm concerned about variable expenses for the children, right, because we haven't talked about that. And I said because I don't want her, after this is over, to be saddled with all of those because he's going to say he doesn't have money to pay them, because she's got money and inheritance that he's bitter about, but it was separate right and unfortunately I'm sad to say that the attorney would not address it. So they wrote up the final agreement with nothing in there about variable expenses.
Karen Covy Host
14:25
Whoa. Okay, just for those listening who might not get it. What do you mean when you say variable expenses?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
14:32
So variable expenses usually are, and again each state's a little bit different, but generally speaking it's those things above and beyond the basic needs for the kids. So it could be extracurricular club, sports, you know, senior trip, driver's ed, all of those like bigger ticket items, and that's really important.
Karen Covy Host
14:51
Yeah, it's hugely important because you know child support covers room board, probably even clothing maybe, but you know that's what it's supposed to cover. Arguably, in most places the amount that you get doesn't even cover that, but that's what it's for. But all the extra stuff daycare, childcare, you know, after school, before school, extracurricular, those all are extras, yeah, yeah, and they add up. It is serious Wow.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
15:28
That's sad, you know, and I and I think that's the piece right, like, when we talk about the advocacy component, right it's I always feel like it's taking the headwinds for some of these really challenging conversations and speaking up and having a voice and asking the good questions and, you know, talking about things that maybe people are like, oh, that doesn't matter, yes, it does, let's have the conversation, you know. And so I feel like there's the headway, because I do, I do get the brunt of some of that stuff sometimes, like Rhonda, it doesn't matter, yes, it does, okay, and here's why. And so you have to do it in a way where you're not coming in and ticking people off, but you do it in a way that is okay. Help me understand, right, why you're suggesting that. Help me. Can I share with you a little bit about, from my perspective, how I think this is going to impact.
16:17
Let's have a conversation about it and usually what ends up happening is, at the end of these conversations, the attorney is like, oh, this is really great and I think I have some clients that need your help, but at first they're like, I don't know, because, again, when we were thinking about the rebrand, the word advocacy. I think a lot of times people are like well, Rhonda, are you advocating for divorce? But no, I'm not advocating for divorce. I'm advocating for women to be able to come to the table and have a voice and be very clear in what they're asking so that, ultimately, they're in control of making a decision that's an empowered one.
Karen Covy Host
16:53
Yeah, yeah, that makes all the difference. And I want to dig into something that you mentioned, that you were in a mediation as a financial advocate. This is something that I haven't heard. A lot of other financial advisors, your run of the mill financial advisor, do or talk about in a mediation session with the client and saying, yes, this financial decision makes sense because of this and this one might not be your best option. Are you actually doing that?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
17:25
Yes, yes, so that's been interesting, right. So, because there's a couple things with that. So one is I mean I have to get permission to get to be in there right now. They could technically tell me, no, not because it's not illegal for me to be in there, just because they want to be a pain. However, the goal is to say listen, if the client understands what's being presented, the chances of them saying yes, or even if they said yes, but or no, but we're going to be able to get to.
18:10
A couple of years ago, and they had set aside two full days for mediation, well, I got approval to go in there and we got it done in six hours and everybody was like, what the actual? Like this was awesome. And again, I don't come in there like I know everything. I come in there like I’m going to think through what's being presented, I'm going to crunch some numbers, I'm going to use my brain, right, like there's only so much you can do to prepare to go in those.
18:37
I could run every angle and then, all of a sudden, you're like, oh well, now they presented something that wasn't. So I love the real live, real time strategy, you know, and like, a lot of times, when we finally get to the end during mediation, the attorneys will, you know, pull up, either print off or send me a copy of the MSA and we walk through it and I'm like, okay, what about this? How about this? Can we tweak this? I think we may be and they're like, oh yeah, this is great. So, like, I love working as a team because it's better for the client.
Karen Covy Host
19:10
You know that makes so much sense and I don't think people really understand what's going to happen in a mediation until they are in there. And I've seen it happen so many times that a person goes in and they maybe have, let's just say, three options there's A, B and C. You prepped them on what's going to happen. They feel real strongly about one of those options, but then in the mediation their spouse or the lawyer or the mediator or somebody else starts saying okay, we're going to take a piece of C and put it with A and mix it with C and do, and all of a sudden they look like deer in headlights.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
19:51
You could not have said that better, because that's exactly what happens. And then you're like I don't know, I'm confused, like you know. What is the long-term impact of whatever it is in front of me? Because I don't get it.
Karen Covy Host
20:01
Yeah. That's right. And the other key thing that I hope people are hearing about what you just said is that you get in there and you like to think. You can think on your feet. You can think through the implications. I don't care who you are or how resolved you are to the divorce and how much you think you've dealt with your emotions. When you are in a mediation and it's your life they're talking about and your financial future, you're nervous, you're emotional, you've got the jitters right and so all the stress hormones in your body are flooding your brain. You can't think. So the value of having somebody like you who's objective in there, I just I can't believe. No one thought of this before.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
20:51
I mean, right, I think it's great, and you know. The other piece of it too is you know, a lot of times right again, having been in the financial industry, I understand you know how that works. Having left there and I'm not no longer doing investments, I'm not doing insurance, so I don't go in there with like okay, I got to get the assets for me to invest in the backend, or I have to sell insurance right now because I can't, I don't have those licenses, I would be in big trouble if I did and so it just really allows me to go in and advocate for, you know, what's in the best interest of my client and be that sounding board. Like there are times when they feel like, oh my gosh, Ron, I don't think this is a good deal. Like I feel I'm like, okay, well, let's look at this. Actually, it is, and here's why, right. And so it's not like I'm saying no to everything that you know comes across our, our table right when we're in the live negotiations. But yeah, I mean it's, it's an important piece of it, for sure. And kind of to circle back on your point, Karen, I think you know the attorneys again they're looking at listen, yep, this looks good. Is this better than your, you know, worst day in court? Okay, yep, we think you should take it. And again, sometimes, like there was a, this was a client again. There's times when people don't listen to me, even when you advocate for them. There are going to be times which is frustrating for me, but it's okay.
22:11
A Client in Illinois. Okay, the bottom line is nothing absolutely terrible happened. It was just annoying. They had seven retirement accounts, seven. So we were talking with the attorney in Illinois and we said hey, listen, here's a couple of different ways we could do this. Rather than splitting every single account via quadro, we could. She could keep this one, he could keep this one. Here's what we're thinking here. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We advocated on her pension, because there were no survivor benefits available. If he dies, she's not going to get that income anymore. We advocated up down around the hill, whatever. And the attorney was like I don't understand it. And he admitted later he didn't understand it. He said I don't actually understand some of the pieces with her TRS, blah, blah, blah. And despite all of our efforts to educate him. And he said the judge would just divide everything 50 50. So that's what we're doing Cost her almost $5,000 and I got a discount for her because I negotiated $5,000 for to quadro all of those accounts, because they, I'm just like yeah. I just want to pound my head against the wall.
Karen Covy Host
You know people who might not understand what a quadro is. Can you explain that?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
23:23
Yeah, Qualified domestic relations order. Okay, qdro. It is a method that we use to be able to split retirement accounts, so it's 401k s, 403 bs and pensions. We don't have to use those for IRAs or brokerage accounts, right? So it's really intended to be a document that's drafted that is sent to the plan provider for the retirement plan and tells them how to split that account. So they get those instructions and then they split that retirement account based on those instructions and then one party you know has their original and then the other person who's the recipient, will have an account at that same plan provider as well, and then at that point, depending on how it's structured, they can decide what they want to do with those funds. So, yeah, it's an interesting process, but I mean each plan is different, so there's a lot of research that goes into making sure that that stuff's done properly and thankfully I have somebody on my team. He's like a quadro geek and loves doing it, so I let him do that, because I would rather be talking to people and strategizing than crunching numbers on quadros numbers.
Karen Covy Host
24:34
You're not alone. A lot of lawyers, I know, will outsource the quadro drafting because they are so technical and so specific. And the deal is, if you screw it up some way and it might not be obvious, like you think, that it says everything it's supposed to say, but the plan administrator says no, you didn't dot the I across the T, they bounce it and you got to do it all over again and every single one of them costs money to your point. So splitting seven retirement accounts via Quadro is going to cost you way, way more money than splitting one.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
25:13
I mean, at the end of the day, apart from that additional expense, it's not like the outcome is. I mean, it's not like she was getting, you know, taken advantage of. When it's all said and done, it's more of an expense and a headache and an administrative nightmare on the back end, you know. So that was kind of unfortunate. But it's also one of those things where we do our best every single day to give these women a voice and to stand in the gap. And there's a lot of work to be done in getting people on board to work together as a team to be able to help the clients.
25:53
The attorney that she was working with wasn't somebody that I had recommended. You know she had worked with him prior to us working together. Um, I probably would have recommended somebody else, but at the end of the day, right, you work with what they've got and he didn't do a bad job until the end, when I was like, wait a minute, like this is, you gotta look at the big picture. Sometimes, you know I can't control everything, but we do our best, influence, you know, as much as we possibly can, and she got a good outcome. Yeah, I mean it's just there was an extra expense that didn't need necessarily to be incurred had things been done differently.
Karen Covy Host
26:24
Yes, yeah, but tell me about this you seem to you're really big on working as a team. Now, personally, that's something that I've always advocated for and think is a really good idea. Why do you think having a team matters?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
26:48
You know, I think at the end of the day, having the right team of people is certainly important, and it's been how I've built my process. From the very beginning. You know, I saw the value of having a team. I saw the value of making sure you've got the right people leaning into those conversations and I don't know I guess part of it is the selfish part for me is I just love being able to link arms with people that are aligned, because I see how much it's fun, Like if we're going to be in the space, like can we just have fun on behalf of our clients and make sure that we're enjoying what we're doing, because we know that we're helping them, not because they're going through something difficult, but because we get to be one of the strongest, finest, most positive people that they can find as they're going through a really challenging time. So I have developed my bridge method, which one of the very first things we do is breathe and build your team. So the essential part of that is legal, financial, emotional. You got to have those three people in some form or fashion, whether it's coaching, whether it's therapy, whether it's combination there of. Like you need those people.
27:53
And then we move on to review the financials. So that's where we gather and organize the documents. We also lean into the budget and current and projected expenses, which helps us in the support negotiations, identifying gaps. So those gaps come in gaps in transparency, which we talked about. That's our DAM method. Gaps in income so we talked a little bit about that. And gaps in expertise. So do we need a business valuation expert? Do we need a forensic accountant? Do we need a PI? And not just somebody who's going to come in and rack up the bills, but somebody who's committed to getting a result. What's the scope of what we're looking at? How much do we think it's going to be and can we get an ROI? Like that's what we're looking at. And then the D dial in the data. So that's when we're looking at property division and support Guide. To finish, strong is going to be, I's dotted and T's crossed on that final agreement, like the example that we've, some of the examples we've given, and then E is exhale, Like okay, we're to the end, it's all done. I’m exhausted and now what?
Karen Covy Host
28:58
Right, and they can really kind of start to focus forward. But all right, let me just throw the question out that I get from people all the time because they hear the word team and they feel, oh God, what's this going to cost me? They immediately think in terms of dollars. So why would you advocate for a team? Doesn't that cost them more money?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
29:19
So in theory, right, you would think that it does, but actually no, and I'll give you a quick example. So there was a client out of California who had hired and again, everything's more expensive in California, but whatever. So she hires a forensic accountant, spends five figures to hire this person. A year goes by. They still don't have a report. Okay, because they didn't have the documents. Everybody's kicking the can down the road. They're waiting on this person, they're waiting on that person, blah, blah, blah.
29:45
I believe that part of the issue was that the scope was too big, so they had expanded the scope. We need all the documents, we need all the things, and it's just too overwhelming. Rather than coming in and saying what are we trying to accomplish, what's the goal and what can we be looking at, that's going to move the needle. So I have found a couple forensic accountant business value agents. I've got excellent people.
30:04
We come in and we say, okay, let's diagnose what the issue is and how do we solve that problem. And then do we feel like the investment is enough to, can we get a high enough return on investment that it makes the investment worth it? And so the people in my network are less than most other people. But part of it's because they know I'm working with them and we're going to have stuff organized and all of that. But also, you know they're experts. They should be able to come in and their trained eyes should be able to look at a few things and give us some direction, without having to go through 10 years’ worth of records to come up with a preliminary report Like I could spend all day on that topic, Karen.
30:46
It makes me so frustrated because I realized that one of my clients, actually from one of the forensic accountants she was working with, never actually got a report 50K in no report. Because, husband wouldn't cooperate, attorney wouldn't subpoena. It's just like we could go off on this whole thing. It's absolutely obnoxious. So if we're even considering it first of all, we have identified that we think it's worth it. How are we going to approach it? What's the game plan, what's the turnaround time and what's the investment? So my clients go into it asking the right questions so that we make sure we've got the right people, you know.
Karen Covy Host
31:23
That makes so much sense and I know that because I talk with my clients about similar things right, and the team seems like it would be so expensive. But when you have the right person in the right chair doing the right job, you end up being laser focused and you can actually get the information that you're looking for. And you know I really hope people listen to what you said Is it worth it? You have to diagnose in the front end what are we looking for, what's the problem, how much are we going to spend to find it and how much are we going to potentially get if we do find it? I mean. Everybody wants a forensic accountant these days.
32:07
They all think that somebody is hiding money. Well, that's great, but a forensic accountant, depending on where you live in the country, is probably going to start cheap and would be 5K, more like 10K and up, right. So if you're only looking at finding $10,000 and it's going to cost you 20 to do it, it just doesn't make sense.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
32:31
No, I think you know a lot of times, right, I think it's that we have seen more like, oh, you need a forensic accountant. Well, first of all, nobody even knows what that means, like, what do they actually do and what are they looking for? And I think sometimes it's the attorney's way of just kind of like deflecting, like, oh, you need a forensic accountant. And so they've got their people that they work with, but they don't really understand how to read the reports, and so, or they say and this is like a whole separate podcast but they say, hey, let's get a neutral. And I was like okay, so you get one person who's going to come and crunch the numbers. That sounds fine. But here's the problem with the neutral they don't want to come in too high and they don't want to come in too low because they're neutral. So now we get a middle. So now they're not advocating, they're presenting data, and if we don't know what we're looking for, we're accepting a subpar number potentially.
Karen Covy Host
33:19
Right, 100%. I'm not a big advocate for financial neutrals, especially, like you know, the collaborative process. That's the way the structure is set up. You use a neutral. There's a lot of benefit to that, but you have to remember that they are neutral and hopefully they come in with a couple of scenarios. A couple of scenarios. Some are better for one side, some are better for the other, some are maybe in the middle, but their job is to present data, not to advocate for anybody.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
33:50
Yeah, and I think sometimes it's good to just even I mean again, within the collaborative. I get that Like that is their role, and a lot of them that are selected as part of the collaborative process provide a lot of value, because they've kind of weeded out the people that you know aren't don't really see the picture right. So the neutral role is not an easy one to play, in my opinion. As much as we want to think that the data is going to be objective, it isn't necessarily so. Even if you have that, there's nothing to say. You can't have somebody else look at it and give you some input. And that's how we moved the needle.
34:21
Seven figures for my client was because they hired a neutral who did the work. And then we came back and we said, okay, well, here's a couple levers. We're not exactly sure why you did this and this and this. Can you help us understand that? And you know that's what I have to say about that. I mean I just think we've got to make sure that again, there's a balance to that right, I'm not saying, like you know, there's a balance, but I just want to make sure that for me, that my clients are well educated on you know what they're looking at and what it means for them and, at the end of the day, asking the right questions so that we understand those reports, so that we're not just accepting at face value you know, somebody's report so that we're not just accepting at face value. You know somebody’s report, right?
Karen Covy Host
35:05
I love that. And I love that you are empowering people to ask those questions, because so many times, especially if you're the person who wasn't doing the finances in the family right, and you're looking at a report and you're too embarrassed to say I don't get it right so what would you say to those, particularly women, because it tends to be the woman who isn't doing the financial end of the family responsibilities, right, and they're looking at a report and they don't want to admit they have no clue what they're looking at.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
35:43
Yeah. So I've been in this space in a different context and what I did was I said, hey, help me understand X, Y, Z. And so a lot of times people are happy to share with you what they mean. Now, if we're looking at the expert to explain stuff, it still doesn't necessarily mean we're going to understand when they're using their lingo or their jargon. So it may involve asking questions kind of outside of that, like finding another expert that could help you understand what those pieces are or what questions to be going back. So we did that with a client and they had a neutral. We had somebody else review the neutral report so we could go back and we had five questions. We asked them, we again moved the needle like 800,000, because when you know what levers to be pulling and what the subjective pieces are, we now can start dialing in.
36:28
And why did you use that number? What data did you pull? Where did you get that from? And sometimes they're like, I don't know, I just always use that number. Well, that's not acceptable, like, oh, that's not good enough, you know. And so now it has ruffled feathers because you got to remember a lot of times, these people that do these reports, they're used to everybody saying, oh, thank you. This is amazing, and when you start to ask questions like, they don't necessarily like it all that much, but that's okay. You know what? We have a right to ask the questions and you have a right to answer them, and that's the way it goes.
Karen Covy Host
37:03
And again, it just highlights to me why people need someone like you by their side to help them understand and to give them the right questions to ask. Because the problem is, if you don't even know the questions to ask, you're never going to get to the right answers ever.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
37:22
Yeah, and it's what questions I think that's the other thing too, like sometimes we know what questions to ask, but if we don't know how to ask it, there's sometimes it's also a myth, so it's what am I asking and how do I ask it? And so we've got some, some strategies we use there for clients too.
Karen Covy Host
37:44
That is awesome. Well, Rhonda, I just want to thank you for sharing all of your knowledge and wisdom with us here today. I mean, you have been a fountain of information and I love that you're a financial advocate. If people say, yeah, I want that, where can they find you? Where can they learn more?
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
37:57
Yes, absolutely so. My website wfwcdivorce.com. I know you're going to put that in the show notes, but they can go there. And then in the upper right-hand corner there is going to be a pink button that says mini course and that's going to be a free mini course that they can take. That really is going to learn six tips and strategies for getting a fair divorce settlement.
Karen Covy Host
38:21
That is awesome. So, for those of you out there who are watching or who are listening, if you are interested in financial advocacy, for sure go check out Rhonda's website. Get her free stuff. I mean, why not? Right, it's free, and so you know, Rhonda. Thank you again for coming and for sharing all your knowledge. This has been awesome, Thank you.
Rhonda Noordyk Guest
38:41
Thank you so much for having me my pleasure.
Karen Covy Host
38:47
The pleasure has all been mine and, for those of you who are watching or who are listening, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you'd like to hear more episodes just like this, do me a big favor, like, subscribe wherever you're listening, wherever you're watching, and I look forward to seeing you again next time.
