Jaime White – Leading a Business You Run With Your Spouse

Episode Description

Jaime White is a serial entrepreneur, a wife, and a mother of 5 boys. In this episode she talks about struggle, self-doubt, and learning to resolve conflict in both her business and personal life.

Discover how Jaime grew to become the leader of the company she founded, rather than defaulting and letting her husband take over. Learn how Jaime juggles so many things at once, and how you can do the same in your life.

Show Notes

Jaime White is a business coach who is on a mission to create amazing organizations by connecting leaders with the coaches who can guide them and help their businesses to grow.

Jaime is the Chief Belief Officer at “Believe Crew,”  a company she founded with her husband Kevin. Jaime is also a podcaster herself, and she hosts the podcast “Believe Crew” where she interviews coaches, entrepreneurs and authors.

Where to Find Jaime

You can find Jaime at Believe Crew. You can also listen to Jaime on her Podcast, Believe Crew: The Business is You.

Transcript

Leading a Business You Run With Your Spouse

Karen Covy  00:03

Hello, and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck. And more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence.

I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And with me today is Jamie White.

Jamie is a business coach who's on a mission to create amazing organizations by connecting leaders with the coaches who can guide them and help their businesses grow. Jamie is the Chief Belief Officer at Believe Crew, a company she co-founded with her husband, Kevin. Jamie is also a podcaster herself, and she hosts the podcast Believe Crew, where she interviews coaches, entrepreneurs and authors. Jamie, welcome to the show.

Jaime White  00:49

Thank you so much, Karen. I'm excited to dig in.

Karen Covy  00:51

I know. I'm a little intimidated to be interviewing a podcaster, but I'm going to give this my best shots.

Jaime White  00:58

Oh, it's been six months, and it's been an amazing journey. I had no idea how much I love the microphone. Because outside of podcasting, it still makes me nervous to get on stage. It's just a totally different environment.

Karen Covy  01:11

I can completely relate to that. There's something comforting about just being alone in the room with the microphone, even though you know you're not really alone, you're being recorded in the whole nine yards. But yeah, I get it.

Jaime White  01:25

It's more of a conversation. It's more of like, take me wherever you want to go. People expect vulnerability. Versus like on stage, I feel like I still need to be somebody slightly different or like, what are you expecting me to be versus podcasting.

Karen Covy  01:41

I think you put it really well. A podcast is more of a conversation. Being on stage as a presentation.

Jaime White  01:48

Yeah, I'm not ready for presentation.

Karen Covy  01:52

Well, I'm glad you're here with us for this conversation, because I've so wanted to talk to you. I want to start by asking for a little bit about of backstory, because you co-founded Believe Crew with your husband, which to me is a very interesting choice. So, can you tell me a little bit about that? What does Believe Crew do? How did you come to create it with your husband?

Jaime White  02:14

You know, it's beautiful. As you know, a little bit more of the backstory, My husband and I 10, 20 years ago, we tried working together a couple of times, and I was like, the first thing I know is that we will not be in business together. And then 20 years later, after doing a lot of work to get to this point. It's like it just feels so right. And even though there's this intense, constant struggle, I mean, I've literally had to kick them out a couple times. Now, we're at that point where we're willing to do the work that we didn't know we even needed to do. Now, it's like, okay, every time something comes up, who's going to do the work? One of us or both of us need to.

Karen Covy  02:52

I think that's really something people need to hear. I mean, we get this idea from Hollywood movies, romance, blah, blah, blah, that you just, you know, boy meets girl. They fall in love, they get married, they live happily ever after. And it just happens, right? In my experience, nothing about relationships or good relationships just happened. You have to put in the work. So, 20 years ago, you're like, “I am never ever going into business with you.” Now, here we are. How did you make that choice? What brought you there?

Jaime White  03:38

Well, part of what's coming up for me, even when you ask this question is recognizing that I am stepping into my role as a leader. For years, I wanted my husband who I thought and believed was the head of the household even though my kids would have probably said it was always me. I believe that that was sort of the position of leadership. And then in the business that I was running prior to this one with my dad, he was the owner. And so, in my mind, he had the position of leadership. I didn't realize that it was my calling to lead. So, I'm hearing this like, I'm pushing up against this like, “Hey, Are either of you guys going to lead?” Because I thought they had the position that was given to them, like this intrinsic male dominated mindset that I may have grown up with, of like, who am I to really lead? And then as I started to do my own work and started to recognize that I'm actually the one that's called to lead and maybe that's not their gift and strength, that was a huge eye-opening moment. And then stepping into that took years of coaching.

So, this idea of starting a business now it's that I am the leader of the business and my husband is one of our coaches. I am the business coach for him. Defining those roles and responsibilities in a way that it's like, these are the lines and separating it and putting on that hat. We might have a personal issue, but what I found is that we can put those personal issues aside for the moment, help the customers, help the clients, help the business and they go back into that. We've really like compartmentalize. Even though everything works together, you just like put that on the schedule. If you want to deal with that, let’s deal with that. Make sure it's on the schedule.

Karen Covy  05:30

That's really interesting. Speaking of compartmentalizing, you and I were talking before the show a little bit about how you're also a mom. I mean, you have kids, you have a three-year-old. How do you juggle that being a business owner working primarily from home? Because I think that's what you do, right? So, how do you do that and have podcasts with a three-year-old running around? How did you decide to do that?

Jaime White  05:56

So, again, my kids have to put time on the schedule. I have some time set aside for them and they know this is the time, this is family time. This is when we all show up and get together. But then if you need time outside of that, put it on the schedule. I know it maybe sounds bad, but I love it. What I'm finding as a mom is that oftentimes kids need five minutes, they don't need five hours, they don't need the same thing adults expect in a relationship and in conversations. They just need a quick hug. And so, what's changing for me is embracing what they need versus what I think they need, and just really leaning into it.

Karen Covy  06:34

That's really, really cool. Along the journey because you've been a part of many businesses, this isn't your first rodeo as they say. So, what led you to say, “Okay. Now, we're going to start this business, I'm going to step into my role as a leader, we're going to do this thing.” Can you explain for the audience a little bit, your thought process that got you to that decision?

Jaime White  07:03

Well, the first things that come to mind are first, apologizing for the things I didn't do well. In that decision making process, I sometimes felt like I was a little dinghy in the ocean, and when the waves were rolling, it was like, where are we going? So, it wasn't this straight-line process to being able to make this decision. Really what it was is I was growing multiple companies, and there were people that were coming up behind me, and they were basically ready to lead. So, it was time for someone to move out and over and create more space for the next person. What I was seeing was just how leadership and how me, I'll talk about me as a business owner, if I'm not growing and developing and lifting the lid on my capacity, then really, there's people behind me that can't grow either. The other companies I was in, they were ready to step into new roles.

My father actually didn't want to grow at the same pace that I wanted to grow. So, it was time. And yet, even though there was that clarity, and there were those moments of clarity, there were doubts, and there was like, logical reasoning for why this doesn't make sense. And yet, I was getting to that point of like, trusting my gut. And then what I saw was my husband starting to come along that journey with me, and we were merging in a new way that he was believing in me, and he was seeing that vision. Sometimes having that other person that starts to see and believe in us, before we believe in ourselves sometimes. And so, there was just this I was growing as a leader, and I was helping grow other people. And I was feeling this calling to more. And yet, making that actual transition feels like the Grand Canyon.

Karen Covy  09:02

Oh, it's ginormous. It's huge. What I really want to dive in a little deeper and dig here, because what you're saying is so, so true. In so many different contexts, anytime you're making a big decision, you were saying, “I knew it. I had the clarity. I was worth it, but I still had doubts.” Can you speak a little more about that? Because I think people think they're going to get to this place where the heavens are going to open, the light is going to shine down, the angels are going to sing, and they're not going to have any doubt at all. And I don't think it happens that way.

Jaime White  09:40

Well, I haven't found that to be true. I mean, even in the previous businesses that I was involved in before, my dad was what I would call the visionary and I was the implementer. What we found is that one day one of us would have clarity and then the next day, the other person would have clarity. What we found is that having the two people are having this ability to kind of like wait in timing? Like, how do I manage and navigate these decisions of like, is this the right time? I mean, sometimes it's literally, just a gut feeling of like this isn't the right time or this is the right time. And then being able to actually navigate. I just am thinking about all the big decisions that we made, and sometimes they're not clear. I know that action, even if it's the wrong action, helps create clarity. I need you to ask the question again, because all I'm thinking about are the huge decisions, and the huge waves that come with that.

Karen Covy  10:52

Yeah. I mean, the question is just about self-doubt, because so many people think that they're going to get to a place where there is no self-doubt, and then they'll move and they'll take action. And what you said is so, so critical. Because sometimes, if you want to know which direction to go, you take the action first and you kind of figure it out afterwards, or am I not getting it right?

Jaime White  11:21

Yeah, no, absolutely. In this particular instance, with this particular question, what's a little bit easier for me to look at is the experience in working with my dad, where he had been a business owner for over 30 years. And I thought he, at this point, is going to be super comfortable making decisions, super comfortable knowing, trusting, and then we would run into the same walls. I was like, “Haven't you done this before?” So, it was a little bit confusing, even to be the person next to him. Like, if you've had experience with this before, why is this still coming up? But being that person in the visionary role myself, or being in a relationship role where things aren't always clear, time, space, grace, like those are words. They're real. Breakdown before the breakthrough.

Karen Covy  12:18

Oh, yeah. Those are really fun, aren't they?

Now, working with your husband, that's a big deal. Like a lot of marriages wouldn't survive that. I know your marriage had its ups and downs as well. If it's okay, I'd like to dive into a little bit more about that and find out like when things were going south on you, what turned it around? How did you decide to say, “No. I'm going to stay with this marriage. I'm not going to do something else.”

Jaime White  12:54

Well, I love the questions. And there's clarity on some of the moments and some of the commitments that each of us made along the way. Obviously, we had that initial commitment, the marriage vows, that I didn't realize were this great commitment at the time. Today, I would do more of a marriage agreement, make it look more like a contract.

In Believe Crew, we have a different style of partnership agreement. You're required to work on your junk. That's a business agreement. Just saying.

Karen Covy  13:26

Interesting. I like that. I really like that.

Jaime White  13:28

Yes. Like a conflict resolution policy, as like, how are we going to deal with this because business, it's partnership, marriage-partnership.

Karen Covy  13:39

That’s golden. Honestly, I'm just trying to visualize in my head, people walking down the aisle, the bride and groom, they're in love, everybody's sitting there. And then the officiant, whoever it is, rolls out the scroll that just gets rolling and rolling that this is your agreement. This is what you're going to do and this is what you're going to do and the horrified look on the couples face when they realize this is really what they’re signing up for.

Jaime White  14:12

Yeah. So, I didn't have any of that when I signed my name. I thought I was changing my last name. And we were riding off into the sunset. I was pregnant right away. So, we had our first son within the first year of marriage, and I was somewhere in 19, 20, you know, age range. And then not that long after I knew that my husband had had an addiction, but I didn't realize that it would still come into the marriage. I didn't realize what addiction was, I didn't have experience with it in my family, I wasn't trained on it. So, as it kind of plagued our marriage and he wasn't able to be present in so much of life being available for the kids. We didn't know it at the time, but we were running into belief systems, right? Like, that's obviously what belief is all about today is the belief systems and the programs that are behind all of the reactions that we have to things.

So, I created workarounds when he didn't have the same financial budgeting desires that I did, or the ability to manage money the way that I was interested in. I just created little hidden accounts and hid money so that it wouldn't be a problem. All these little work arounds that worked for a while “worked,” and then it was in a cycle of we're not growing, we're just existing. And eventually, after a couple of kids and doing the same things over and over, I remember turning to him and saying, I recommitted to the marriage. I don't know, my timing on this. Let's say it was 15 years in, maybe it was 10, actually. I remember turning to him and saying, “It doesn't matter what you do, I'm not leaving. And it doesn't matter what you put me through.” I was in blame. I mean, I was blaming the other person. Same with the business owner AKA my dad. I was like, there's two problems in my life, when they're on each side of me, and it's not me. And so, taking ownership of that and saying, “I'm committing to these relationships, and I'm committing to seeing what I can do to be the best version of me,” was the shift that happened. That was the beginning of the shift. And then as I started growing, and started understanding my own values, who am I? What are my core values? What am I doing? How come I don't know what boundaries are? How come I talk like this to myself? The things that working with coaching and books and acupuncture, to be honest, coaching is the best, but I did all the other things, too.

Karen Covy  17:11

Of course. We all do.

Jaime White  17:13

As I was starting to learn and discover who I was, and I'd show up for myself, it made the people around me decide, “Do I want to still be the same person? Or do I want to be somebody different?”

Karen Covy  17:29

I need to stop you right there. Because I've heard this from so many of the people that I work with. They say, “Okay. Well, if you're just working with me, how does that change the marriage?”

Jaime White  17:42

Changes the world.

Karen Covy  17:44

So, can you talk about that?

Jaime White  17:47

Everything around me changed. The entire circle. I realized that my friendships were venting friendships. If I stopped venting. When something goes wrong for the day, I had certain people I would call based on what went wrong. I knew who was going to sympathize with me in that environment. When I stopped complaining and venting and having those relationships where that's what I was doing, then I had to change friends.

Karen Covy  18:20

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it is true. It's like Napoleon Hill says, “You are the sum total of the five people who you spend the most time with.” It's interesting that you realize that as you were growing, you are outgrowing your friends.

Jaime White  18:44

And family, right? That’s super hard, especially in the Midwest, especially these are what lifestyles are created around. I mean, I grew up in the community where that was the lifestyle. And so, my line, especially in the last couple of years, before coming out of it was embrace loneliness and reinvent yourself in the process. It took a bit. But now, we have a whole new circle, a whole new community. And I feel so supported in a way that I've never felt supported before. And part of that was learning to accept support.

Karen Covy  19:18

Yeah. That’s another thing that us good Midwesterners are trained to do. Especially as women, we're taught to support not to let ourselves be supported. And it's a skill. I mean, I would argue that it's a skill to learn to allow people to help you.

Jaime White  19:43

Yeah, for me, giving and receiving love is a two-way street. So, all part of the journey for sure. So, going back to the commitment that I made, and then the circle changing and then I didn't know, but I was actually an enabler. And so, I was enabling bad behavior. How do I say this in maybe a different way or a new way? Whether it was employees or whether it was my spouse, if I try and take away the consequences of his actions, or of their actions or make it easier for them, it's really a form of enabling, but not just enabling it also is my way of saying, “I don't actually believe that you're capable.”

So, when I actually started putting it back on him, and saying, “This is not my problem. This is your problem.” And believing and saying, “I believe that you're capable of overcoming this problem without me. Find your own friends.” It was like a wake up, whoa.

Karen Covy  21:01

That's so interesting. I mean, what you're bringing in here is something that I haven't heard a lot of people talk about, which is the role of belief in decision making and in change. I mean, if you don't believe that you are going to be successful at doing something, most people won't even try. So, can you talk more? I mean, your whole company is called Believe Crew. Right? So, clearly, this is something near and dear to your heart. Can you talk more about the role of belief in decision making and change and the whole thing?

Jaime White  21:39

I'd love to. So, a couple years ago, when after I'd been doing the work, after I was starting to set some boundaries, after I was starting to say, “I believe that this is something you're going to deal with. I'm here for you, and you're going to have to find your other support team.” There was a, I guess, they maybe say, come to Jesus moment, where I basically said, It's time for you to either commit to dealing with your junk, or it's time to go move out. And he started to walk out. And I said, “Okay. I'm just curious, before you go,” because I knew that he loved our lifestyle. I mean, we have six kids. I knew that he loved everything about what we had created and who we are. But I also knew that there was this shame and guilt and some of these other unhealed things that were making it so that there was this conflict of where he didn't even believe he deserved what we had. It’s almost like self-sabotage, watching it happen in real life. I've seen that happen with successful people where if they hit that I did better than I ever thought I would do, or my life is better than I ever thought, it seems mind blowing to be like, ‘Well, success can be too much.’ Right? So, I knew that him starting to walk out, was really coming from that shame and guilt space, because I knew he liked everything that we created and everything we were. And yet, he was he was willing to walk out. I said, “I'm just curious. Why are you going to walk out right now?” And he said, “Because it's too hard to change.”

We came from a Christian based perspective. And I was like, “Okay. So, I'm just going to ask you one more favor then, I'm going to also ask you to leave the church because basically, Jesus preaches and teaches transformation is possible. And if you believe it's too hard to change, then do you really believe.”

Karen Covy  23:47

That’s a really good point.

Jaime White

This is me being straight out. This is exactly what happened. So, then he kind of sat back down, right? He wasn't quiet like maybe his fault.

Karen Covy  23:58

I’ll leave you but not the church. You pushed too far.

Jaime White

It was going to look bad. Now, I’m going to really look bad. So, the work that we do is around belief system changing. And I was like, “You know that this is possible to change the belief that it's too hard to change. You have to want something else. You have to want to believe that it is safe to change, and that it is possible to change.” And so, he that day, worked on that belief first, and then made the commitment to stay and do the work.

Karen Covy  24:36

Wow. That is a tough decision on his part because I know that beating any kind of addiction isn't easy. This isn't a, “Okay. I decide and now it's over and life is grand.” It's a daily recommitment and recommitment to getting past the things, getting past your addiction, getting past the things that were holding you back. So, that was quite a commitment on his part. But it also had to be on your part too because as the wife of someone who is an addict, you've got to know. You know it's not a straight line from here. It's up and down and up and down and up and down.

Jaime White 25:25

Right. Patience for the plan.

Karen Covy  25:28

What did you draw on from inside of you to be able to make that commitment and stick with it?

Jaime White  25:42

Once he was willing to commit to doing the work, then I'm all in. My gifts and strengths, see people's potential but the real strength for me was in prayer. I mean, I learned to pray differently, I learned to say thank you for taking care of the situation before it was even taken care of, shifting my energy to believing it was possible. To really hold space, and be really, really clear on my boundaries, and really trusting my gut and intuition. If something felt off, I'm trusting that. The energy doesn't feel right, I'm trusting that, like, over and over and over again.

Karen Covy

That's really amazing. It's beautiful. Again, there's just so much in this conversation I think, for people who are struggling to make a decision, because we all think that we make decisions here, right in our head. That isn't really the way it goes. The decisions come from our heart. You've got to listen to your heart and listen to your gut. And if you don't do that, it's like you're cutting yourself off from so many sources of information, that you wonder why you made a bad decision. It's because you weren't listening.

Jaime White  27:14

Right. Sometimes we're trying to solve illogical problems with a logical solution.

Karen Covy  27:19

Yeah. Whoever said human beings were logical? I mean, I would love to meet that person. That's not been my experience.

Jaime White 27:27

That's like saying, take the emotion out of business.

Karen Covy  27:30

Oh, yeah, that one's good, too. Make a decision just with your head, just business decision. Decisions in life don't work that way. But the other thing is, is not just that you had the courage and the strength to listen to your gut, listen to your heart, listen to your head too. I mean, I do want to be clear, making decision without your head is also a bad idea.

Jaime White 27:58

There’s three brains. You got to use them all.

Karen Covy  28:01

So, you got to use the whole set of tools if you want to make the best decision. But also, you said something that is so important, and that is you trusted yourself. How did you come to do that, to have that trust in yourself?

Jaime White 28:19

Coaching. I mean, do you want a different answer?

Karen Covy  28:24

You weren't born that way?

Jaime White  28:26

No, I actually was not, no. I actually am coming from a place where I felt like a confident person. I know my personality assessments at this point. In the personality profiles, one of the “stronger, more courageous,” that type of stuff but it didn't matter. I still had feelings of worthlessness or belief systems that were running programs that I didn't even know. And I was reacting to situations and triggers that I didn't even understand why I was reacting. I didn't hear that stuff. We went to Landmark Forum. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. This was in 2013. And this was, after I'd made the commitment but before I really asked him to make a commitment. I turned to him in one of the sessions, the only one that we were sitting next to each other, because that's part of the program, right? You don't sit next to each other. And I said, “I love you.” And that was a big deal for me, because it's not a big thing in our family. And so, he could not say it back. I knew at that moment that there was a deeper issue. And yet, we didn't know what it was or how to find it. So, the work that we started doing in this mix of healing and coaching was transformational. The reason I bring up landmark is because they talk about blind spots. So, I started to recognize that I might have some blind spots, but I still didn't quite know what they were and I didn't know how to hear them. So, when working with a coach or healer, they're hearing things that I don't know I'm saying. That was the transformation for me.

Karen Covy  30:03

That is so interesting. So, it was through the working with the coach and having them, as we say, hold the mirror up to you.

Jaime White 30:11

Yeah. He asked me questions, I was like, “What are you seeing? What are you hearing? Because I didn't hear that.”

Karen Covy  30:20

I think it's so critical if you want to do something like change a belief, because it's interesting, but most of us don't even realize we have them. We just think that this is the way things are, right? In fact, it's not a belief. It’s a fact.

Jaime White  30:40

Yes. And that's the wording even that we use sometimes. This is fact we get from your perspective. It is totally.

Karen Covy  30:49

Yeah. It takes a lot of courage to be able to stand there and say, “Okay. What do you mean this isn't a fact?” And allow for the possibility that there may be another way to see the world. But it sounds like what you're saying is that by working with coaches, and becoming able and being open to being able to look at the world differently, you were able to shift your belief system and shift what was possible for you and for your husband.

Jaime White

Yes. 100%.

Karen Covy

And also, for your kids. I mean, six kids is a lot of kids,

Jaime White 31:29

Six boys, I would have a lot more. This maybe sounds ridiculous, but it's that last six minutes of labor gets me every time.

Karen Covy  31:37

Well, you've done it enough time. So, I'm going to give it to you on that one.

Jaime White  31:42

Yeah, six minutes. The other piece that comes up, when we think about this a little bit in the work that we've done in the last couple of years, is after he made the commitment to change, and after he made the commitment to stay. And then we felt this calling of like, maybe we're going to have to share our story. And we were like, “No, not that.” You know what, anything but. And so, we started a podcast a year ago, that's called Business Addicts. A little inside secret, it's not much about business. We started interviewing business owners that had overcome addictions and gone from struggle to superpower. What we learned along the way is that there was a lot of trauma behind the addiction. So, now, we're entering season two, and we're talking about trauma. And through that process of being willing to be vulnerable, be willing to put our story out there, not only did that help other people get help and realize that it was possible. But my husband ended up going through healing to see what he could find for the trauma, because there was trauma behind the addiction that we didn't even notice.

Karen Covy  32:50

Yeah. Of course, that makes total sense. It kind of shows you how life takes you on this journey. You don't know all the time where it's going to lead or what it's going to call you to do. The question is, are you willing? Are you willing to step up and do the work? It sounds like we've come full circle. It comes down to are you willing to do the work? And if the answer to that question is yes, sounds like amazing things can happen.

Jaime White  33:24

Yeah. And I can tell you, from my perspective, I really tried hard to let it be the other people that did the work, because I really, really thought they were the problem. It was true and yet it wasn't. I mean, I still don't even know how to explain that.

Karen Covy  33:44

Well, let me poke you a little bit and see if you can try. What do you mean when you say, “It was true, but it wasn't?” They had to change, yes. But how did you get to the point where you were willing to say, “Oh, maybe I have to change a little too?”

Jaime White  34:05

In the end, I wasn't changing for them. I wasn't changing because I wanted a better relationship with them. I was changing because I wanted a better relationship with myself. I wanted a better future for myself. And so then through that process, I started to weed out what relationships do I still want to work on? Which ones are not worth it? And so, setting those boundaries, I mean, it's just like starting a business and learning what are the clients I'm called to serve? Which ones am I not? And all those boundaries they say like in business or like that's when my business started to take off is when I started to say no to things that weren't the right fit. I feel like it's the same thing in our relationship and in our marriage and in what we've created now in our home, it's saying no. That's made the biggest difference.

Karen Covy  34:51

Yeah, I know. That reminds me of back in the day and I will not tell you how many years ago it was because I will so date myself. But years ago, when I started my own law practice because I had been a lawyer in a firm and in the government and started my own business. And back at that time, there weren't a billion business books, right? There was exactly one book for lawyers who wanted to start a law practice. It looked like a legal book. It was like one of those big green things. So, I read it and it was pretty horrible. But the one sentence that I remember that made reading the entire book worth it was this and it said, “Your business success will depend on who you say no to, which clients do you not take.” Because the ones that aren't a good fit are going to be the ones that keep you up at night that cause you problems, that costs you money, that all the things. I read it, and I don't think you really get it until you do it once. And then you're like, “Oh, so that's what you meant.” So, yeah, I can completely relate about learning to say no. If you can do nothing but that, I think that will help a lot.

I want to raise one final question, which is, I admit, it is totally unfair but I love to ask this question, what is the best decision you've ever made?

Jaime White 36:21

That is really interesting, because I'm a very high D in the disk, and I love to make decisions. So, first, I have to define best.

Karen Covy  36:37

Now, you sound like a lawyer, just so you know.

Jaime White  36:41

I'm going to say the best decision that I've ever made was being willing to go where I was being asked to go. I'm going to choose, this is in all cases meaning, when God asked me to go to another level, or go farther, go one step farther, making that decision to continually say yes to that growth, choosing growth has always been the best decision. The one decision that if I have to pick if I have to pick one is adding three more kids to our family. So, we had three and I was maxed out. I was like, there's no way I can do more. But I had lost my sister at the time and I was like, ‘I'm not ready to make a permanent decision either.’ And so, when we felt like we were being asked to have more, and again, this is my husband was not super present for the first three. And I was just like, ‘Oh, no, look,” but going that second mile and having three more, I highly, highly recommend it. We've had to become way better people than we were before.

Karen Covy  37:48

Well, I think you're pretty amazing human as it is. I really appreciate you telling your story. I think you're going to touch a lot of people's hearts. I hate to leave you like this. I've made you cry.

Jaime White  38:06

No, it's good. It's touching, right? Touches our heart.

Karen Covy

Yeah, that's for sure. So, why do we end it with this, Jaime, can you tell people where they can find you? Where they can connect and learn more about you and Believe Crew and all the things you do?

Jaime White  38:21

That’s awesome. Thank you. So, Believe Crew, obviously is online. Google us. My name is Jamie White, but if you Google Jamie White, you won't find me. I mean, you'll find hundreds of thousands of other people. So, Jamie White and Believe Crew and then you start to find me.

And the podcast, I'd love to have people follow our podcasts as well. I mean, these conversations helping just open up, expanding our thinking by listening to what other people have gone through and experience is beautiful. I'd love to have people share that with us.

Karen Covy  38:49

Yeah, that is beautiful. So, we can find you at Believe Crew and the podcast and the website and all the things. And for everyone listening or watching, if you like what you've heard, if you want more of these conversations, please like and subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel. It all helps. So, Jamie, thank you again and I look forward to talking to you again some other time.

Jaime White

Thanks, Karen.