Jason Sposeep has helped his clients get divorced in every way there is to do it. As an experienced litigator, mediator, negotiator, and Collaborative Divorce professional he has guided his clients through almost every divorce process during the course of his career..
In this episode, Jason explains what each different divorce process is, how it works, and (most importantly) the factors to consider when choosing one divorce process over another. [HINT: Not every divorce process will work well for every divorcing client.] He also dives deeply into which divorce process will (or won't) work for which kind of divorcing client.
We also talk a lot about divorce lawyers, and how you can find a divorce lawyer who specializes in the type of divorce process you're interested in using.
If you've thought about mediating your divorce, doing a Collaborative Divorce, or going through your divorce in any way that DOESN'T involve fighting in court, this podcast episode can help you make better decisions about the divorce process that will work the best for you and your family.
Jason Sposeep is a dedicated advocate for high net-worth professionals and their spouses, who prioritizes fair and equitable outcomes in divorce cases. His extensive background in business and finance, coupled with his compassion, allows him to sensibly resolve complex divorce and custody disputes, with an emphasis on always placing the well-being of children at the forefront.
While Jason has substantial experience in litigating such matters, he strives to reach amicable solutions outside the courtroom.
Jason is a skilled negotiator, trained in mediation and collaborative divorce, and holds a 40-hour mediation certification. Additionally, Jason's involvement in Collaborative Divorce Illinois and his role in shaping Illinois Supreme Court Rule 294 showcase his commitment to improving the collaborative divorce practice. He frequently lectures on various family law topics and is actively engaged in alumni and educational initiatives within the legal community.
Connect with Jason
You can connect with Jason on Facebook at Jason N. Sposeep Esq., on LinkedIn at Jason Sposeep and on Instagram at Jason Sposeep. You can find out more about Jason and the law firm where he is a senior partner at the website Schiller DuCanto & Fleck. The best way to get in touch with Jason is via email at [email protected] or via phone at 312-609-5551.
To find Collaborative Divorce Professionals in Illinois, including attorneys, child specialist, financial specialist and divorce coaches, please visit Collaborative Divorce Illinois.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Jason
- There are several options for getting divorced beyond traditional litigation, including mediation, collaborative divorce, and sitting down to negotiate agreements. Jason explains the difference between litigation, mediation, and collaborative divorce. Each has pros and cons.
- Litigation is going to court to resolve disputes. Mediation involves hiring a neutral third party to facilitate negotiations and reach agreements, with or without lawyers involved. Collaborative divorce requires that the parties and lawyers sign an agreement not to go to court, so they must negotiate settlements; it involves a full team including coaches to address emotional issues.
- Jason advocates for alternative dispute resolution approaches like mediation and collaborative divorce rather than litigation in most cases. He says litigation tends to perpetuate conflict and fear, whereas collaborative approaches focus on understanding each person's interests and goals from the outset. This promotes better long-term outcomes.
- Collaborative divorce involves a whole team - lawyers, coaches, financial neutrals - to address legal, emotional, parenting, and financial aspects of divorce holistically. Mediation and collaborative divorce often lead to more amicable, win-win, and cost-effective divorce settlements compared to litigation.
- Good candidates for collaborative divorce are those willing to negotiate in good faith, disclose information, focus on the wellbeing of children, and preserve privacy.
- Tips for finding a qualified collaborative divorce professional include getting referrals, researching credentials/specialization, and utilizing directories through organizations like the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals.
- Overall, Jason argues that alternative dispute resolution processes like mediation and collaborative divorce tend to produce more holistic, amicable, and cost-effective divorce settlements compared to traditional litigation in court.
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How to Choose the Right Divorce Process for You with Jason Sposeep
collaboration, divorce coach, divorce team
Karen Covy, Jason Sposeep
Karen Covy Host00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covey, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show. With me today is Jason Sposeep.
Jason is a dedicated advocate for high-net-worth professionals and their spouses, and he prioritizes fair and equitable outcomes in divorce cases. His extensive background in business and finance, coupled with his compassion, allows him to sensibly resolve complex divorce and custody disputes, with an emphasis on always placing the well-being of the children at the forefront. While Jason has substantial experience in litigating complex divorce cases, he strives to reach amicable solutions outside the courtroom. He's a skilled negotiator, trained in mediation and collaborative divorce, and he holds a 40-hour mediation certification. Additionally, Jason’s involvement in collaborative divorce Illinois and his role in shaping the Illinois Supreme Court Rule 294 showcase his commitment to improving the collaborative divorce practice. He frequently lectures on various family law topics and is actively engaged in alumni and educational initiatives within the legal community. Jason, welcome to the show.
Jason Sposeep Guest
Thank you for having me.
Karen Covy Host00
Jason, you and I go back a lot of years.
I'm not going to say how many years, but we've known each other and been friends and colleagues for a very long time and I'll tell you honestly, one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on the show is you are, at least in my mind, a bit of a unicorn. You not only can litigate, what you do very well, but you also have the capacity to mediate and to do collaborative divorce, and you actually believe in those things, which is amazing and, as we all know, not all of our colleagues do all of that. So I'd like to start, if it's okay with you, by diving into process, and by that I mean divorce process. How can people get divorced? Because, as you and I both know, there's more than one way to do it these days. So if you could start, I think most people know what litigation is. It's fighting in court, in a word. Right. But what is mediation, what is collaborative divorce and what's the difference between the two of those?
Jason Sposeep Guest02:53
Sure, yeah. So I'll skip litigation, since people generally have a decent understanding of what that is or what it isn't. And then there are two or three other main options and, of course, hybrids between those other options, one of them being mediation, one of them being collaborative divorce, one of them being two parties sitting down at the proverbial kitchen table and coming up with a resolution. And then there's middle ground between each one of those and some overlap, but I'll get into that in a little bit more detail in a bit.
Mediation is where two individuals in the divorce matter hire a third party, neutral, and that third party neutral helps facilitate the negotiations between the two of them. There is not. It is typically a divorce lawyer, doesn't have to be necessarily, but most importantly they're there to facilitate the discussion. They are not there to provide legal advice. So mediation usually comes in two formats, one being where the attorneys are representing the parties during the mediation, possibly being physically present in the mediation. And then there's mediation where people are negotiating for themselves and perhaps ideally, but perhaps they have counsel outside of the mediation container helping them understand the nuances of the law and prepare for the mediation. There are also mediations where two individuals get together. They just hire a third party, neutral person and there are no lawyers involved. Sometimes a lawyer will draft up the agreement. Sometimes people actually present their divorces per se.
Karen Covy Host04:45
Okay, I want to stop you and interrupt, if you don't mind, right there, because you've said so many things.
Jason Sposeep Guest04:50
There was a lot there.
Karen Covy Host04:51
There was a lot there, right? And you said, ideally people will have lawyers If not sitting in the room with them, at least they've consulted with lawyers Outside of the mediation before they mediate. Why does that matter?
Jason Sposeep Guest05:06
It matters because and I've seen this many times the parties think that they know what they're doing. They don't have the legal advice, they think they've come to a conclusion or a resolution. In fact, it happened to me this morning with a client. They were mediating on parenting issues and thought that they had come to an agreement, but it once. Then it comes back to the lawyers. The lawyers are saying well, what about this? What about that? Did you understand this? Did you understand that? And next thing, you know, the lawyers, the bad guy, so to speak. That's undoing this quote-unquote deal. But if they're prepared before they go into the mediation, the, the chances of having a successful and binding agreement are, you know, substantially higher If, if that's how they go about their process.
Karen Covy Host05:55
Yeah, and so that's mediation and, like you said, you mentioned that there are lots of different variations or kinds of mediation. Can you explain what you think by that?
Jason Sposeep Guest06:07
Sure, depending on how long we talk today, I'll talk a lot about divorce coaches, but divorce coaches are a creature that is a mental health professional that helps deal with what I call the soft issues in divorce, and there are times where individuals in mediation will also use the help of divorce. A divorce coach or divorce coaches and a mediator might be Co-mediating. For example, the divorce lawyer, is a mediator for the parties, but there's also a coach involved that's co-mediating with that divorce lawyer and helping deal with the soft issues together with the legal issues or the harder issues, because both of those, both of those items are happening simultaneously at the same time.
Yeah that's what I was talking about in terms of hybrid, and divorce coaches are something that are used in collaborative divorce traditionally, but I've done many mediation where divorce coaches were involved and there's been some fantastic outcomes.
Karen Covy Host07:15
So just an example of a hybrid and let's talk now then about collaborative divorce, and you mentioned that there are coaches involved in that. Can you explain what is collaborative divorce? Because I think a lot of people think, oh, it's a divorce that's collaborative, meaning amicable, meaning we work together, which it kind of is, but it's really not so what is it?
Jason Sposeep Guest07:39
Yeah, certainly. I mean there's obviously a lot of on a stereotypical level. There's a lot of discord or lack of trust and things of that nature coming into a divorce or a divorce process. And collaborative divorce doesn't just automatically mean that stuff's not in the picture.
Collaborative divorce is a it is a statutory creature, meaning there is law that lays out what this process is and you had mentioned as part of my bio there's a Supreme Court rule that tells lawyers what they can and what they can't do in the collaborative divorce process. And the main aspect of collaborative divorce is that the parties sign what's called a participation agreement. It's a contract that says that they cannot go to court they or their lawyers or their teammates in this process. They cannot go to court to resolve their dispute, and what that does is it takes the, the proverbial gun out of the holster of the lawyers if things aren't going well. In the collaborative process you can't just go to court to get what you want, and that's a big distinction from mediation, where a mediation, if things aren't going well, there's no preclusion for their lawyers to go in and file and do what they need to do in the courtroom setting.
Karen Covy Host09:02
Well, let's just say, playing devil's advocate here, that I'm a litigant in the collaborative divorce process and I've just had enough. It's not going anywhere. I want out, I want to go to court. Have I permanently given up my right to go to court by no participating collaborative? How does that work?
Jason Sposeep Guest09:21
That's absolutely not. They're not precluded from going to court. However, if they are in the collaborative process and they've signed that Participation agreement, they cannot go to court with their original chosen lawyer. They must start over in many respects and they have to hire new counsel, new counsel outside of my firm, for example. So if I take a collaborative case, no one in my office, none of the other lawyers, can actually take that case and litigation. They'd have to go elsewhere and so would the other party in the process. They too would have to obtain new counsel if they were moving from collaborative into a litigation setting.
Karen Covy Host09:59
So if I'm a person listening to this who doesn't know anything about collaborative this sounds really awful to me, like why would anyone do this? Why is this a good thing, or is it a good thing?
Jason Sposeep Guest10:11
No, great question. I consider this process to be the golden apple of processes. If you are a ripe candidate for this process you and your spouse and your family. I have seen Many litigation cases and many collaborative cases, and the outcomes that are in collaborative cases are traditionally more holistic, long-term, focused, teaching people how to communicate and resolve problems that arise in the future post-divorce. So, if, if you are a proper candidate for this process, collaborative is absolutely the way to go.
The main thing that changes is how we negotiate, right in litigation format or even in mediation. What ends up happening as we take positions. We might take something that may even be an extreme position to eventually, you know, make some compromises and reach some sort of a middle ground. Whereas in collaborative divorce, we start with the initial meeting, going through each person's goals and concerns for the process, for their children, for the finances, and we all negotiate, trying to tie their goals and interests to the actual outcome. And so it's a lot less positional.
I can't say it's completely not positional. Ideally, it's not positional, but it's a lot less positional because we're focusing on the underneath, the why. Why do you want the house, why do you want to have the kids more than 50% of the time and really getting underneath of things? And one of the ways we're able to do that is to have these divorce coaches involved in the process, because the legal aspect, the financial aspect, are the easiest parts more often than not and that that's not always the case. But more often than not, it's the water under the bridge that gets in the way of the business transaction, and so having a divorce coach be part of that process really helps eliminate or substantially reduce that friction that gets in the way of the actual deal.
Karen Covy Host12:22
Okay, I've heard you say if you are a candidate for collaborative divorce. How is somebody supposed to know if they're a candidate for collaborative divorce?
Jason Sposeep Guest12:34
Well, one is that you want to put your kids first to you are believed that, even though there may be discord, that both parties are going to put all their financial information and all the necessary information on the table.
In collaborative divorce we don't traditionally issue subpoenas and do formal discovery, so there has to be enough trust in the process that, if that, if a document is needed, even if it's not asked for, for example, it's produced in a collaborative setting so that automatically eliminates probably a pretty fair chunk of individuals in in the divorcing process.
But if there is two people that want to get divorced, maybe one wants to get divorced more than the other and we deal with that. But two people that want to do it amicably, that they that they want to preserve their estate, they want to maintain privacy, they want to be able to maybe try things without a judge interfering or weighing in or making decisions about a 15 year marriage in 15 minutes. Where collaborative divorce can help solve those kinds of problems. And one of the ways we determine whether or not a candidate is a good fit is we have divorce coach involved to make an assessment, to help the lawyers make an assessment, is it possible that, notwithstanding the discord between the parties and their issues that there is a good likelihood that we can complete this divorce collaboratively. So that helps tremendously.
Karen Covy Host14:17
So what I'm hearing you say and you tell me if I'm if I'm getting it wrong. But that if I'm a client and I come into you and I say my spouse was hiding money, I know that there are assets. Maybe he has a business, he makes money in cash or I think he siphoned off money for years, can I do collaborative?
Jason Sposeep Guest14:36
So the question is maybe my probably a red flag is being raised, certainly immediately for me, that there's fear of non-disclosure. There's a lot of fears that are not necessarily real, but there's suspicion. So one of the things that we do, or one of the things that helps make a decision for me to make recommendations to a party, if collaborative is a possibility, is who ultimately they retain as their counsel. So if they go out and hire Joe Schmoe, who doesn't know collaborative but says he or she does collaborative, that's an automatic no for me in terms of saying you should sign that participation agreement. If they hire somebody that I've collaborated with, that I know is above board, that knows how the process works and as a leader in the collaborative world, then I would have a conversation with that attorney in terms of the fears and the concerns that are being raised by my client before we enter into a signed agreement and determine collectively is collaborative law possibility.
The other thing that we have in a collaborative divorce is and I mean I have very, extremely complicated financial divorces in collaborative and more often than not, in fact almost every one of my collaborative cases we have a financial neutral that is part of the team and the financial neutral is usually a CPA. Usually if there's a business involved, that financial neutral is someone that can do neutral business valuation work. They can do forensic work and follow the dollars from account to account to do the necessary due diligence. So there's a lot of protections in the process in place that can be utilized.
But if that person does say I don't trust my spouse to produce this information and he or she has accounts in the Caymans that I know I'll never know about, that's a pretty big strike in my book for having a chance of being successful in a collaborative model.
Karen Covy Host16:49
I'm going to ask you a question that is totally unfair. So let's say you've got a complicated financial situation. You've got somebody high net worth individual. They're very, very complicated finances and they want to get a divorce. All other things being equal, let's say that producing information is not an issue. Everybody is going to be above board. Where would that person be best served in getting a divorce? Would it be through mediation, collaborative or litigation? And why?
Jason Sposeep Guest17:24
I said, the collaborative divorce, in my opinion, is the golden apple of processes, and if there is intention to continue co-parenting, for example, if there's kids, if there's intention to want to keep your dirty laundry private assuming that there is, and usually there's something then I would say collaborative is the best approach. Rarely are you going to hear me say that litigation is the best approach to reaching a divorce agreement or order. There are situations where there are, but if everything is above board and somebody wants to get a, when you say good deal or the best deal, the ones that I see in collaborative are the ones that have a lot more win-wins tied to them than having a true winner and a true loser. Again, just by function of those cases that I've been dealing with for the last 20 years.
Karen Covy Host18:43
What I'm curious about, though, is whether your decision of whether or not to use collaborative divorce is that related to the size of your estate, because it sounds to me as a consumer hearing this the collaborative is expensive. So is it better to only do collaborative divorce or consider that as an option if I have a lot of money? Or if I have a lot of money, will I be better served by going to court? How does the size of my financial picture, the size of my marital estate, affect my choice of process, or does it?
Jason Sposeep Guest19:27
So to have a full team, there are certainly a number of upfront expenses. I kind of use the pyramid as an example of the costs in collaborative. I do consider it to be an upside-down pyramid. There are upfront costs for paying for a coach, there are upfront costs for having the financial neutral, but as time goes on, including post-judgment, the costs decrease because you've set up a very solid foundation for not only settlement but for future resolution of problems that can typically arise, especially if there's young kids or there's financial entanglement for years, whereas on the flip side, a traditional litigation is more a standard pyramid where the costs just continue to mushroom and continue to grow.
And so the short answer is that you have to have some means in order to be able to afford the collaborative process and the teammates.
But at the end of the day, I've got some really cool examples where I've represented brothers that were in one was in litigation and one was in collaborative and they both resolved their disputes in those processes and they both had the same job. They both had the same, essentially same lifestyle. It was a fantastic comparison. The person who resolved their divorce in collaborative was tens of thousands of dollars less expensive than that which was in litigation. So I would say that if you had the more money you have, the more appropriate it is to be in the collaborative process to save money and to save resources. But yes, the smallest cases probably can't afford to have that full team. However, the Collaborative Divorce Institute does have a pro bono or low bono program for those individuals that can't afford all the different team members, but they'll do it at lesser hourly rates. So I think there can be any size of state at the end of the day that can benefit from the collaborative process.
Karen Covy Host21:49
Now, and just to sort of clarify too when you say the Collaborative Divorce Institute, that's in Illinois, correct?
Jason Sposeep Guest21:56
Yes, correct the Collaborative Divorce Illinois
Karen Covy Host21:59
But are there similar types of institutions in other states as well? I would think there must be.
Jason Sposeep Guest22:09
There are. I don't know them all as we sit here, but I believe every state has a central body organization that oversees collaborative divorce work and I'm familiar with many of them. I just can't, as I sit here. I don't know if it's every state, but I would be shocked if it's not every state. And there is also the International Collaborative Association, IACP. I can't remember the exact acronym, but there's an international governing body with respect to the collaborative process as well.
Karen Covy Host22:43
Yeah, so the International Association of Collaborative Professionals, I think is it, and you're right, and they have chapters all over the world for people. So what I want people who are listening or watching this to understand is that, even if they're not inside of Illinois, there are options, there are organizations, and it's just a question of doing the legwork to find them, and you could probably, I would think, start at IACP.org, and if they would have lists of where you could go in your state, whatever that is to try to find professionals right and I'm happy to also be a resource to help find who's who in every state, in every country.
Jason Sposeep Guest23:28
I'm very closely networked with individuals all across the globe that do this type of work, especially in the high-net-worth space. And what's really great about collaborative divorce is because you're not in a courtroom. I can be working with people in different states and different countries in the collaborative process, coaching or helping in any way, shape or form, because there's such a small aspect, frankly, to the process. That's law. I mean, I'm not minimizing it because it's certainly important, but the collaborative divorce skills can apply to any divorce in any jurisdiction.
Karen Covy Host24:07
Yeah, 100%, and I think you raise a really good point. It's something that I've told my clients for years, which is that the law in most divorces is just a small percentage of what you have to deal with. The rest of it is what sounds like is so much better dealt with in a collaborative situation or mediation, which is it's the emotions, it's the finances, it's the kids, it's all the other things that a divorce entails, because it's not just a legal part. The legal part is super important and you don't want to, like you started off, saying not getting a lawyer especially if you've been married a long time, you have kids or you have a lot to lose makes no sense because you're going to make mistakes that can come back and bite you.
Jason Sposeep Guest24:59
But it's pennywise pound foolish for most circumstances.
Karen Covy Host25:05
Can people do a collaborative divorce without a collaborative divorce lawyer?
Jason Sposeep Guest25:09
Can people do a collaborative divorce without a collaborative divorce lawyer? The answer is no. It wouldn't be a collaborative divorce if there wasn't collaboratively trained lawyers as part of the process. I've never been asked that question. I'm not familiar with any jurisdiction that promotes or supports collaborative divorce without collaborative divorce lawyers, but I would liken that to be something more like two people sitting down with either a mediator or sitting down at the kitchen table to come to resolution.
Karen Covy Host25:49
Speaking of collaborative divorce lawyers, let's say there's somebody out there listening who said, yeah, this sounds really good to me and I understand that I need a collaborative divorce lawyer. How do I find one, and how do I distinguish a true collaborative divorce lawyer from one of those people that you mentioned earlier who says they're collaborative but they really aren't?
Jason Sposeep Guest26:11
Yeah, great question, and that's a very difficult thing for the consumer. My recommendations usually are try to get a number of referrals and potentially interview a number of individuals and ideally if you could get cross referrals. If two people recommend the same person, that's usually a decent sign. Also, look at their websites. Look at what they're writing about. Look about what they're communicating about. If their blog articles are about litigation and about destruction, I would veer away from that. Attorney. If you're looking for collaborative, if they're talking about collaborative, if they're teaching collaborative, if they're blogging and writing articles and speaking about collaborative work, that's a way to start distilling whether or not this person really walks the walk, because it's not very difficult to just say I'm a collaborative divorce lawyer. There's no collaborative divorce lawyer police out there that enforces somebody, whether they can or can't do it, but word of mouth is huge.
Karen Covy Host27:23
Yeah, I agree. And what about the organizations that are out there, the collaborative divorce organizations? Do they also provide directories of attorneys and coaches?
Jason Sposeep Guest27:36
Yeah, I can speak specifically for CDI, the Collaborative Divorce Illinois Institute. They have a list of all people that have been trained in the collaborative process. They've been trained in mediation and they continue with their legal education collaborative legal education requirements every year. So there's a website where you can see the lawyers, the coaches and the financial neutrals for Illinois and for many other states and their respective organizations.
Karen Covy Host28:08
And I think what you've just said I'd like to highlight because it's so important, is that when divorce professionals, of whatever variety, are in collaborative divorce Illinois or in any organization like that, there are continuing education requirements. So you really want somebody who is trained, who knows what they're doing and who continues to keep up on changes in what's going on in the divorce world, because there's changes all the time, right and the people on the website are all people that have done those things, otherwise they would not be allowed to be on the website.
Jason Sposeep Guest28:47
So that's a quick and easy box that can be checked from that perspective.
Karen Covy Host28:54
So it sounds like we've talked a lot about mediation and collaborative divorce. Both of those are what's known in our world as alternative dispute resolution, because they are alternatives to going to court. I know you're a big proponent of ADR in general in a divorce. Why?
Jason Sposeep Guest29:16
Because the outcomes are so much better. This is a perfect example on something I've been jumping up and down lately that in a collaborative divorce we prepare parties for the first meeting with the help of a coach preparing them, the lawyers preparing them, and our very first meeting we're having conversations about what they want, what they want to accomplish, what they're concerned about. In a litigation setting we may never have that conversation, and if we do have that conversation, it can be 18 months or two years later, and not knowing those things out of the gate is a huge roadblock, and so doing something where you're talking about your goals and interests out of the gate is a tremendous way to get started in a divorce process whether it's mediation or a collaborative compared to litigation where no one sees my cards until they absolutely have to and that just perpetuates more fear and more angst and more fees I mean traditionally speaking.
Karen Covy Host30:26
So that just brought to mind a situation that I've dealt with so many clients, typically who are in litigation, who go to a lawyer and the lawyer says don't talk to your spouse, that's right. Is that good advice or bad advice?
Jason Sposeep Guest30:39
It depends on the situation. I mean, I know I'm answering like a lawyer, I appreciate that, but one of the things that we do in collaborative, certainly, and oftentimes in mediation, is we help educate that individual so that they can advocate for themselves in many respects, they can articulate what their actual needs are. It has a lot more gravity for a party to say this is why I want the house, as opposed to the lawyer, to posture and say this is why we want the house. It goes so much further. So giving the clients, giving the individuals a voice in the process, cuts through a lot of red tape.
Karen Covy Host31:26
Yeah, yeah, Jason, this has been such a helpful conversation. I know a lot of people are going to get a lot out of it, and if they want to follow up, if they want to find you and ask you questions or hire you, where can they find you? Where's the best place to reach you?
Jason Sposeep Guest31:44
They can reach me through my website, through my firm's website. It's www.sdflaw.com. My email address is JSposeep.sdflawcom, or 312-609-5551. That's my direct line and I'm happy, like I said, if I'm not the right fit. One thing I always offer is I will help you find the right fit. It's worth it to me for people to get into the right hands to the right individuals across the board. It's just I see the underbelly of this process and part of what I'm trying to do is to brighten that up a little bit, make things better for families, because 98% of the situations, this acrimony, this level of acrimony and secrecy and three years of litigation is just not necessary.
Karen Covy Host32:43
Yeah, Jason, thank you so much for your generosity and sharing your time, sharing your advice, sharing your willingness to help other people, even if you're not the right person. I think that's huge, because I deal with people all the time who are like where do I find somebody I don't even know where to look.
Jason Sposeep Guest32:59
Right, it's hard and it's a dark place out there in the worldwide web.
Karen Covy Host33:04
That's for sure. So thank you so much again for being here. I really appreciate it. We'll put all the information where to find you in the show notes. We will also link to Collaborative Divorce Illinois. So for anyone out who's out there looking for, you know, a Collaborative Divorce financial, neutral or a coach or someone else all of that will be linked. And for everyone who is watching, who is listening. If you enjoyed this episode, if you found that it was helpful, please do me a big favor. All you got to do is hit that like button, hit the subscribe button, and I look forward to talking to you again next time.