Episode Description
In today’s podcast conversation, Karis Nafte, a certified dog behavior consultant and family mediator, delves into the sensitive issue of pet custody during a breakup or divorce. With over 25 years of experience and her deep understanding of dog behavior, Karis has a unique perspective on what’s really best for your dog when you divorce.
Karis explores the challenges of shared custody for pets, the differences in how various dog breeds might handle such arrangements, and the heartbreaking reality that sometimes, the best decision for the dog may require one person to let go.
Whether you're going through a divorce or you’re simply interested in how to make the best choices for your pet in challenging circumstances, this conversation is filled with insights that will make you think deeply about what it truly means to act in a pet's best interest.
Show Notes
About Karis
Karis is the founder and owner of Who Keeps the Dog, Pet Custody Mediation. A Certified Dog Behaviour Consultant & Accredited Family Mediator, she brings 25 years professional experience as a dog behaviour expert into the world of dogs and divorce. A global pioneer in her work, Karis has developed, and teaches, the first accredited pet care education course for divorce professionals to learn best practice for a dog’s best interest.
Karis provides online mediation services to pet owners for custody negotiations that are fair and respectful for both people and ensure the pet's well-being is prioritized.
Connect with Karis
You can connect with Karis on LinkedIn at Karis Nafte, on Facebook at Karis Nafte Pet Custody Specialist, and follow Karis on Instagram at Who Keeps the Dog. To find out how to work with Karis visit her website at Who Keeps The Dog where you can also sign up for a free consultation.
Book Release
Karis has just released her new book: Who Keeps the Dog, Navigating Pet Custody During Divorce.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Karis
- Karis Nafte is a certified dog behavior consultant and accredited family mediator specializing in pet custody mediation.
- Dogs experience stress during divorce, which can manifest as behavioral changes or physical health issues.
- Dogs generally prefer living in one home with a stable routine rather than shared custody arrangements.
- If attempting shared custody, longer visits (e.g. 2 weeks or 1 month) are better than frequent transitions.
- Factors to consider in pet custody decisions:
- Which person the dog is most bonded to
- Living situations of each person post-divorce
- Work schedules and travel requirements
- Presence of other pets or new relationships
- The breed of the dog can impact how well they handle shared custody or transitions.
- Video assessments can be more effective than in-person observations for evaluating a dog's behavior.
- It's important to discuss pet custody early in the divorce process rather than leaving it until the end.
- The well-being of the dog should be prioritized over emotional attachments or using the pet as leverage in divorce negotiations.
- A trial period for shared custody (3-6 months) is recommended before making final decisions.
- Written agreements are crucial for pet custody arrangements, even for unmarried couples.
- Karis offers free discovery chats and has written a guidebook on navigating pet custody in divorce.
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Transcript
Karis Nafte: The Truth About Pet Custody in Divorce
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
pet custody, transitions, behavioral changes
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Karis Nafte
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me. Today I have Karis Nafte, and Karis is the founder and owner of who Keeps the Dog Pet Custody Mediation. She's a certified dog behavior consultant and accredited family mediator. She brings 25 years of professional experience as a dog behavior expert into the world of dogs and divorce into the world of dogs and divorce. A global pioneer in her work, Karis has developed and teaches the first accredited pet care education course for divorce professionals to learn best practices for a dog's best interest. Karis is also the author of Who Keeps the Dog Navigating Pet Custody in Divorce. Karis, welcome to the show.
Karis Nafte Guest
01:23
Thanks, Karen, thanks for having me.
Karen Covy Host
01:27
I was going to say you're not alone. Who is there with you today?
Karis Nafte Guest
01:32
So on my lap I have one of my three dogs whose name is Bear, and Bear being the smallest dog, he's lap size and he loves, whenever I'm on a Zoom or anything, he loves to sit on my lap and be part of the show. So for people listening, there's an adorable little black fuzzy dog on my lap and he'll probably sit here for 10 minutes and then he'll get bored and go to sleep on his bed.
Karen Covy Host
01:55
That's you know. It is perfectly appropriate and totally on brand for you.
Karis Nafte Guest
02:01
Exactly imagine I didn't have a dog, then what would be what would be wrong with that picture?
Karen Covy Host
02:09
Yeah, I know that would not be right on any level. But let's, let's start with. I mean, first of all, what you do is extraordinarily unique. I have never met another person like you, and I was just wondering how did you get started with this, doing pet custody mediation? What's your origin story, so to speak?
Karis Nafte Guest
02:30
That's a great question. So my origin story goes back almost 30 years where I was working, or I still work, as a dog behaviorist.
02:40
And a dog behaviorist for folks who maybe aren't familiar with that term is someone who's almost like a dog psychologist, and I'm qualified to help dogs with real serious behavior problems, whether it's dogs who have separation anxiety, dogs who are very aggressive, dogs who are troubled in some fashion with their behavior, with their emotional state.
03:12
And so I've spent all of my adult life in the world of dogs and their families and people always call me in some kind of crisis. No one ever calls me to say our life is really wonderful and our dog is fine. It's always they need help with something usually pretty serious So I noticed, probably about 10 years ago, my first inkling that I want that this was a problem. When I say this I mean pet custody and dogs and divorce when I was started to see clients who I was helping their dogs with long-term stress problems and those the reason for the stress of those dogs was that the custody decision was not the best one for the dogs.
03:50
So sometimes it was a compromise between the people to keep the people happy, like in the case sometimes when people share their dogs. That's the way that it goes. Other times I was seeing dogs where the person of the two people who maybe had a better lawyer ended up with the custody of their dog. But they weren't really the ideal owner or maybe they didn't love the dog as much as they thought. They just didn't want their ex to have it, which can happen in divorce. So I was aware of what custody issues could have the effect on dogs in the long term, and I thought someone needs to do something about this in order to bring some more awareness about what is a dog's experience of divorce and long term custody decisions and how can we help them.
04:37
And from my personal side, I have had as someone, the greatest phrase I've heard oh then my dog's barking was I've had two practice husbands myself, so I have been. I thought that's a nice way to phrase it. I've been married and divorced. I've been married three times and divorced twice. This last marriage seems to have worked.
04:58
We've been together for a long time now, but I have been through two divorces and I grew up in a house where my mother was also a divorce mediator, so I was very aware of the conversations around divorce as long as I can remember, and how to help people do it without it becoming a fight and how it wasn't necessary.
05:20
Even when people are so emotional and people feel at odds with each other and they feel like there's no common ground, if you have a skilled mediator and you have people who are willing, you can work through those incredibly difficult times without it escalating, which is so important for people to know. So, even when it's something as emotional as your pets, it does not have to escalate. You can work through it in a way that you and your ex-partner are making the decision about the dog, not a judge and not the lawyers, but the two of you, if you can put the best needs of your dogs ahead of your own, usually can come to the right decision, and so that's now what I do. I'm a mediator and well as a dog behavior person and yeah, that's me.
Karen Covy Host
06:13
So is the only divorce issue that you will, or issues that you will mediate the ones surrounding the dogs or you do you like, will you mediate kid issues, money issues, those kinds of things too?
Karis Nafte Guest
06:27
Nope, I just do the pets. So I work in collaboration with a lot of other mediators and a lot of lawyers, so that my colleagues from all over the world will send me their clients to say help, help these two people please. You know we've done everything but we still have to figure out what's happening with Rover or the Seven Rovers sometimes. So that's all I do. I only do the pets. I'll do any pet. I'll do pigs and parrots and horses and hedgehogs, cats, but it's primarily my work is focused around dogs. That's why I called my business Who Keeps the Dog.
Karen Covy Host
07:01
Wow, this is fascinating to me. So, okay, you said this started because you were working with dogs who had issues. You were working with dog behavior issues, right, and you saw what happened to the dog when the people the parents, the pet parents got divorced. How do you know if your dog is suffering because of your divorce? What behaviors are you looking for to try to figure out? Is your divorce affecting the dog? Would the dog be better with person A or person B?
Karis Nafte Guest
07:37
So it's important to separate long-term stress from short-term stress for ourselves and for dogs. And so when you're in the state, the short-term stress like, let's say, the few months surrounding the divorce process and the inevitable stress that comes with that, as I'm sure everybody listening is very well aware of. So the first thing is your dog will experience stress. The dog doesn't know if you've lost your job or there's a medical issue or there's a divorce. So stress is stress for a dog. As much as we love our dogs and as much as their emotions mimic ours, they don't understand something like the concept of a divorce. And I'm bringing this up because some people, you know we almost think of our dogs as children these days. A lot of people do, but it's important to not really confuse their emotional capacity. They're not children. They don't understand if one person is leaving, but they certainly understand when there is stress in the house. So you will see things like, for example, your dog might start chewing on stuff. Your dog might start maybe they start howling and making noise when you leave them home alone, when before they didn't. Some dogs I work with will. They might become acting almost a little bit aggressive sometimes, like whether with people or other dogs, or they don't want to get in the car anymore. They don't seem to enjoy the things they used to enjoy, like going to the park. Some dogs become quite withdrawn because they're just overwhelmed and stressed by what's happening or the emotional state of the people around them. When their owners are behaving very different, some dogs get very, very overwhelmed by that. Now it's really important I have to put an important note down here that all of the stress signs that dogs can show can also be a sign that they are sick. So if your dog is if like they stop eating can be from stress, or it can be because they are sick and they need to go to the vet, or it can be because they are sick and they need to go to the vet. So anytime you see something dramatically changing in your dog's behavior, the first thing you should do is make sure that they are okay. Take them to the vet. If the vet says physically everything is okay, then it's likely just the stress is triggering these kind of reactions. So in those sort of situations the short-term stress situations, as I call them it's important to keep it really simple Make sure your dog's getting the right amount of exercise for your dog.
10:15
So don't overexercise them, but don't also under exercise them. And I have to make this broad statement because dogs are so different. I mean there's chihuahuas and then there's German shepherds and there's St Bernard's and there's Dachshunds. You know, the amount of exercise a dog needs is vastly different, depending on their physical body and their emotional body as well. So make sure that the exercise is appropriate for them, because that helps quite a lot.
10:44
Make sure your dog's getting enough sleep. I mean, a lot of this is going to sound like I'm talking about people, but dogs need to sleep about half the day, so that's about 12 hours, 15 hours, in order to be a content and happy dog. So if your dog, for example, goes to a doggy daycare all day long and then you come home and you still take him for a walk because he seems hyper, which some of my clients tell me what's likely happening there is your dog is actually very much overstimulated and simply can't calm themselves down and they would need more resting time, not more exercise. So that's another conversation. We can get into the details there.
11:26
So when it comes to things like chewing like if your dog is suddenly ripping up stuff and chewing up stuff. This is not your dog sending you a message. Okay, this is not. And this is something that some people tell me. This is not your dog upset because you went on a date with a new person you've met. Okay, if your dog chewed something up, they're not that complicated dogs and they don't destroy things purposefully to give you a message. They don't understand the concept that something is valuable and by destroying it the person will be upset. That's something a person does, not a dog.
12:03
But dogs will chew up stuff if they are stressed, if they're bored or if they've got nothing better to do and they need a good release. Because chewing on things is a great. It's a natural stress reliever for dogs. So that is something that happens a lot. So you want to make sure your dog is getting enough appropriate things to do with their mouth so they don't go and find something in your closet that they shouldn't be chewing on. So those are some short-term kind of stress signs. Your other question about who should the dog go with is that's a long question and a long answer, because there are so many factors involved in that sort of decision. So the easiest way I can answer that question is that there are often people who try to do shared custody with their dog or they want to do a shared custody plan.
Karen Covy Host
12:59
Right. In fact, shared custody you mean post-divorce the dog will spend a certain amount of time with one parent dog parent and a certain amount of time with the other person in the couple, correct, correct?
Karis Nafte Guest
13:10
Yes, sounds great in theory. Sounds really great in theory. It's a very understandable thing to want to do. Then you don't have to say goodbye to your dog, so it's a very understandable thing. Some dogs find this very stressful in the long run. So we mustn't imagine that this is the best outcome for a dog, because for most dogs and I'm saying most because of course, there's exceptions they're going to have a happier life living in one home where their life is settled and there's a routine that makes sense to them.
Karen Covy Host
13:50
Why is that? Is it because dogs like routine?
Karis Nafte Guest
13:55
Mm-hmm, dogs like routine. And I think that moving between two houses you know every house has sort of a different, let's say, a culture of the house. Let's put it that way. You know different. Even if you talk to kids, it's like moving back and forth between, even if they love both parents. It's kind of tiring for those kids sometimes to have to adjust to two houses. That's just, that's the way that it is so for dogs, the way that I can answer that, because of course dogs can't speak English so they can't exactly tell me why. But the adjustment between the two living spaces always takes a few days.
14:36
Let's say they've been doing shared custody for a year and the general answer is something along the lines of well, I mean, you know it's okay. The dog you know Rover takes a few days to adjust, but then he or she is fine and settles in Rarely. Do I hear oh, the dog is great, the dog really loves it. It's more of a. The dog is okay with it. For some people, if they're honest with themselves, the dog is not happy. But neither person is willing to let go of the dog. So of course again, I'm speaking in generalities here. People might be listening and go no, my dog's totally happy with shared custody and there are plenty of dogs who are. But we have to first check in with each dog to see how they're doing. So I recommend, if people do want to do shared custody, that they do it for a trial period.
Karen Covy Host
15:33
What kind of a trial period, like a month a week, two months, six months? What's a trial period?
Karis Nafte Guest
15:46
I would say usually between three and six months is a good trial period to see how the dog is doing, because in the beginning dogs usually like a shared custody thing, because they like adventures Like wow, we're going in the car. Dogs are so cool. It's like whoa, we're going somewhere, wow, we're doing something. So in the beginning the stress won't usually show up initially. Once the dogs almost sense it oh gosh, this is happening all the time. That's when they, that's when you start to see them not wanting to get in the car, not wanting to go. You know, if they have to walk to a certain place, to go to that person's house, they won't want to go there.
16:18
And it's not because they don't love the other person, it's just because it's like the transitions, especially if the people are emotional with each other, especially if when the person gets the dog back, they are too emotional. So if someone is very attached to their dog and when their dog arrives back at them, you know for their week or two weeks or month with the dog, if the person receiving the dog is just too emotional and too unable to contain their emotions, that can be very stressful for many dogs. There are some dogs that are sort of natural therapy dogs that will almost absorb those emotions like a sponge. But not all dogs. Many dogs just find that a very overwhelming thing to deal with from a person.
Karen Covy Host
17:05
So what I'm hearing you say, if I'm getting this right, is that if people are going to try a shared custody arrangement, it's not going to be like, okay, you have three days, I have four, you have four days, I have that. You need a longer period of time for the dog to be with each person. Is that? Am I hearing this right?
Karis Nafte Guest
17:29
That's correct. So generally longer visits are better because you minimize the handoff days, you minimize the exchange days. So sometimes I talk to people, they who you know, they exchange the dog every two days, for example, which is just really, really overwhelming for a dog, not to mention the fact that you're seeing your ex every two days, which is in a whole other conversation which is, I mean, connected to all of this. But that sort of sharing becomes a way to almost not really finish the relationship, because you're in touch all the time and you're in contact. So people should be aware of that for themselves, that if you set up that kind of routine you're still in a relationship with your ex, so to speak. But going back to the dogs, so longer visits are better than shorter ones for most dogs. So I usually recommend something like two weeks, two weeks or one month. One month rather than week on week off, or shorter visits.
18:28
Now it's different if there's children. Some dogs are very attached to the kids and will go wherever the kids go regardless. That can be easier for the dogs because first of all, the parent's focus goes more toward the children and so it's easier for the dog to just be sort of in the background and not be the focus of all the attention in the household. And especially if the dog is very bonded to the child, the child kind of becomes the anchor point for the dog, if that makes sense. But if we've got no human children in the picture make sense, then it's think more longer visits rather than shorter ones.
Karen Covy Host
19:10
You know that's interesting because I've been involved in cases where the two parents have decided to do exactly that with the dog. It's the child's dog and the dog is going to go with the child. And I often wondered, you know A is that good for the child? You know it seems to be, because then the child is bonded with some, you know some creature, some life form that's going with them and makes their transition easier. But I didn't know if that was any good for the pet.
Karis Nafte Guest
19:39
It depends on the dog. It depends if they really do love the kid as much as the parents think, or some dogs are really more attached to one of the two parents and then it's harder for that dog to move with the child.
Karen Covy Host
19:53
Okay, how do you tell who the dog is really the most attached to.
Karis Nafte Guest
20:00
So there's different ways that you can assess this and look at that. One of the most simple ways you can wonder how a dog feels about someone is who does the dog choose to sleep next to? This is, provided the dog has access, you know, the dog can make their own choice about it. So dogs who always choose to sleep with a child, first of all they feel safe with that child, they feel comfortable with that child, they're enjoying the scent. There's quite a strong bond there.
20:26
So that's the first question.
20:27
It's like if the dog is always trying to sleep with mom, for example, or dad, and not the child, it's very possible the dog is more attached to that particular person. The other question is when everybody is home, like sleeping, where does the dog want to be? Now, I don't mean if you have snacks, because all dogs love snacks, as we know, and so do I. So, like when the child comes home from school, if the dog runs to greet the child and says hello, hello, welcome home from school, and then goes straight back to dad's office to spend the day sitting with dad, the dog's probably more attached to dad. To spend the day sitting with dad, the dog's probably more attached to dad, whereas if the dog, by choice, spends all their time following the child around, sitting with the child on the couch going outside when the child goes outside, then that dog is focused and bonded there. So in a way, it's a very simple sort of thing to look at. Who does the dog want to hang around? Very simple sort of thing to look at. Who does the dog want to hang around, and that is one of the easiest ways to tell?
Karen Covy Host
21:26
Have you ever had situations where the dog is really kind of with both people, right? So let's say there's no children involved, it's a husband and wife couple or a couple and the dog spends time with both of them sort of equally? Does that happen?
Karis Nafte Guest
21:47
It's rare that it's completely equal. So typically, if people are really honest with themselves, dogs do have one person that they anchor off of. More it can be, you know, call it 40, 60%. It's not always completely obvious or completely swayed one way or the other, but they do typically have one person that they're anchored off of. But for dogs where the dog clearly is attached to both people and both people are attached to the dog, then we have to look at the other factors. So what is the living situation post breakup? What kind of house is everybody going to be living in? What is your job situation going to be? How many hours a day will you be out of the office? Are you going to be traveling for work? You know, is there a new relationship in the picture and do they have animals? If so, how does this dog feel about those? You know the new factors coming in. So all of the whole situation is part of answering that question.
Karen Covy Host
22:51
To figure, out what the but what do you do? So let's say the dog is clearly bonded with the husband, for example, but the husband is moving into a studio apartment and doesn't have the space for the dog post divorce. So the wife is then going to take the dog because, let's say, she's keeping the house, the kids are there, blah, blah, blah. Just a very traditional kind of situation. Then what do you say? Because the dog is going to see the dad coming back to pick up the kids from time to time, he's going to like what's best for the dog in that situation.
Karis Nafte Guest
23:32
So in that situation, if the dad really can't have the dog where he's living, then of course in your example it would have to stay with mom. So when dogs are so, first of all, dogs are very are more adaptable than we think. So life doesn't always work out the way we want. It's not always possible for exactly the right thing to happen with a dog.
23:52
So, let's say the dog is going to live with mom and that's, and that's just the way it is. For whatever reason, the dog will settle into the new routine, especially if he's seeing dad on kind of a regular schedule. Let's say he's seeing dad twice a week when dad picks up the kids. Initially, what's likely to happen with that dog is he would be very, very, very excited to see dad and really, really excited. But after some weeks, or even maybe a couple of months of the routine, the dog would understand the routine and he would say hi to dad and he would go back to his routine with mom. When it is a real problem is when, let's say in the same example, but there's no children in the picture. So let's say the dog's bonded to dad but dad is going to go work on a fishing vessel. Let's say he can't take the dog with him. He's moving to Alaska and that's what he's doing, and the mom has a house and she can keep the dog. So in this case the dog would also settle in with mom and he would adjust and he would. You know, it takes a few weeks but dogs are very adaptable to new situations.
24:59
However, if dad were to come back after six months and visit the dog. Then of course the dogs have great memory. So of course the dog would be over the moon and so excited to see his dad and completely hysterical with happiness. And then dad would leave again to go back on the boats, on the boats and that is where it's harder on dogs to have visits, kind of just random drop-in visits after a very long time, if the visits are not going to be regular. If the visits are regular the dog gets used to the hello and the goodbye. But if it's not, it's a worse heartbreak for the dog because that dog will have adjusted to life with mom and he'll probably be completely fine, totally settled in his house and suddenly this other love of his life reappears and heartbroken dog because dad leaves again. So in that situation I don't advise visiting the dog. As harsh as that sounds, it's kinder for the dog to allow them to settle in with the new person that they're going to live with. On the other hand, if the visits are going to be regular and consistent, the dog will get used to that routine.
Karen Covy Host
26:14
That is really fascinating. So let's talk about the circumstance where a couple they really can't decide. They come to you and they're like we both want the dog. How do you? Because, as a mediator, you're not making the decision for them, you're trying to help them come to terms with to make the decision and come to terms with it, whatever that decision may be. So really, even though you may be a dog behavioralist, you are working with the human and the human behavior to get them to do what you and I would probably say is the right thing. How do you do that?
Karis Nafte Guest
26:58
So when I do tell my clients is when I first see them, is that I will sometimes put on my dog behaviorist hat. So if they're proposing, you know, for example, let's fly the dog across the country four times a year, and it's a dog who's very stressed in small spaces I would say listen, dog behavior is talking here. That's not fair for your dog. So I will deviate from my role as a mediator to advocate for what's best for the dog, and that's why people want to work with me. So in that sense I do deviate and I will offer suggestions just based on my understanding of dogs and their behavior.
27:51
You know, the art of mediation is allowing a space for a creative solution or, and maybe old emotion, or maybe an emotion or a feeling that you didn't know was there, to come out and come to the surface. And I find that with enough wise conversation and holding the two people there when I say holding, I just mean holding the space as we all have the conversation the right decision, or at least a good enough decision, it does eventually get made. There's usually one person who says something, like you know, I've realized after we've spoken that it's actually right for you to keep the dog for this reason or something along those lines. That's kind of the magic of it, it does emerge and sometimes it doesn't, and we say, fine, let's share the dog for six months and then we revisit it. Sometimes it's too soon to make a decision, like if the divorce is just too fresh or the breakup is too fresh, cause I work also with people just who aren't divorcing but they're just splitting up.
Karen Covy Host
28:52
Yeah, so I would assume it’s the same kind of situation. If you've been living together, you've been married, the dog doesn't care.
Karis Nafte Guest
29:01
The dog doesn't care. No, definitely, yeah, exactly. So a lot of my clients are just breaking up from living together. So with enough time, a decision will emerge between the two people about what's right what's right for them, what's acceptable for them, and it's also okay to take it slowly. So I've many times proposed let's meet back in six months and see how we're feeling, and sometimes that's what it takes in order for something, a creative when I say creative, I mean something no one had thought of or a perspective that one of them hadn't thought of to emerge.
Karen Covy Host
29:38
Yeah, so how does the breed of the dog affect this kind of a decision or this kind of situation, or does it?
Karis Nafte Guest
29:49
The breed of a dog is a huge factor in this sort of discussion because, like I said earlier, dogs are so different I mean they are the most varied species that has ever existed on the planet probably that ever will exist I mean, who knows what the future holds but they are so very different because of their genetic, how we've bred them, what we've bred them to be good at and focus on their size, their energy levels. So the first, the easiest way to talk about breeds, or the most general statement to make, is that when you're looking at shared custody or not, it's going to be much more of a challenge when you have dogs that are bred to either be guard dogs or that were originally bred to work on a farm. So even my little picture behind me, that's my Australian cattle dog, who was drawn especially for me, so cute, and Sam is like a bluey that cartoon everybody likes. And Sam is a cattle dog. So he was bred to work on a farm in Australia and move the cattle around. But what comes with farm dogs is an intense bond with one person. They're sort of shepherd, the person that they anchor off of. So for a herding breed or a guarding breed, because their origin was for many of those breeds was quite similar. Moving between two homes is going to be harder for them in general because they're bred to focus on one person, even though they love the whole family, and they're also bred to be very kind of aware of their territory, whether that makes them a guard dog or just very cognizant of their space. So moving back and forth is going to be trickier for those sorts of breeds. It tends to be easier if you have a dog that is maybe more from like a gun dog background, a hunting background. Some of the retrievers have an easier time because they're more easygoing, naturally dogs. But if you have a very anxious retriever it's not okay for them. So any dog who has anxiety sort of issues, if you have a dog from a shelter that was a rescue dog, if there was any abuse in a dog's background, shared custody can be very hard for them.
32:02
Similarly, the toy dogs, the little, tiny ones, the sweet little sweethearts. They're very varied in their characters, so some of them are a little bit more shy, some of them are quite outgoing.
32:15
We've all heard the stories about little dogs who act big. Some of them are a lot more confident little guys, but small animals are also more susceptible to physical stress. They don't have as much as much body to sort of you know, take on stressful sort of situation. So you have to be very careful to watch that they're not getting a little bit sick or, you know, if they are stressed about something that it's not pathologizing in their body in some way, if they are stressed about something that it's not pathologizing in their body in some way. So that's sort of my main advice is, if you have a dog that's a purebred, if you know its breed, look at what that dog was bred for way back, what was its original purpose, and that might give you some sense of whether or not it'll be okay, moving between territories and between people, okay, so you just said something very interesting that I'd never thought of before that the dog can internalize stress and become sick.
Karen Covy Host
33:14
Have you seen that happen?
Karis Nafte Guest
33:16
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it happens for us as well. I mean, imagine a person under a very stressful situation. You know it can certainly pathologize. So I'm not a vet, so I don't want to make you know a broad statement about that. But I have seen I don't know countless dogs who, because of stress, have become so anxious that their hair starts falling out, they don't want to eat. And again, these are dogs who've been to the vet and we've gotten them checked out. So it can be skin issues from the dogs, it can be the dogs who stop sleeping, dogs who start sleeping all the time, where something in their body just is not able to cope with the amount of adrenaline running through their system all the time. And, yeah, a whole lot of challenging things can happen for dogs.
Karen Covy Host
34:06
So it sounds like if you are a dog owner and you are going through a divorce and you see your dog exhibiting these behaviors, any of them, or becoming physically ill, that that might be a sign for you that, whatever your current situation is, it's not working for the dog.
Karis Nafte Guest
34:24
Exactly.
Karen Covy Host
34:26
How do you figure out what will. Do you say, okay, you know, especially if the couple is still living in the same space and they're going to move, but there's so much tension in the house. Would that be a situation where one spouse might want to say look, I know we're still in the process, this isn't done yet, but one of us has got to move out because it's too much tension in the home for the dog. Does that happen?
Karis Nafte Guest
34:53
I haven't had that myself specifically, but I can imagine that happening. Definitely, If people are really volatile living in the same house together is that if they're in that situation it's a good time to call a dog professional like myself. You need to get someone who is qualified. Don't just Google dog expert, because anybody can call themselves a dog expert, but ask your vet for a certified dog behavior professional that they can recommend, who can actually come in with their expert eye and offer you advice. I don't recommend just Googling or just asking the internet what to do, because the advice people tend to get out there it can just be really atrocious.
35:36
So find a human being who is qualified to help you deal with the stress that your dog is going through. But you can always deal with the dog's stress. You first have to acknowledge that it's happening and then take the steps necessary to fix it or to help the dog. And sometimes that means okay, the dog is not happy living in my house, Maybe it's got to go back to the other partner or listen. We tried to do shared custody. It's super clear that the dog is just not coping. And then there has to be a real love enough for the dog and an adult conversation where somebody has to make a choice to allow the other one to keep it.
Karen Covy Host
36:17
So it sounds like what it's really about is one person letting go and really putting the dog first. I know that that can be heartbreaking, especially if you, as the human, are bonded to the dog, but I love the way you put that. It's about being an adult. Yep, so, and I'm curious because I happen to know that you are currently living in South Africa, but our listeners don't know that, and so that fascinates me how can you, how do you, work remotely with a couple that's got adult? Like you can't see the dog, you don't observe its behavior. How does that work?
Karis Nafte Guest
37:02
So what I get from my clients cause I do my behavior consultations online, mostly now as well, which I've done since the pandemic. So what I get from my clients are video of the dog. I get video tours of the house and I ask for specific moments where I need the dog's behavior to be videotaped. Now, the reason why this actually works better than being in person and I found this with helping with dog behavior is that anybody who goes to your house to observe the dog will affect the dog's behavior because there's a weirdo in your house Like who's this person? Whether the dog is happy about you or scared of you or everything, the dog will not behave the same as it would if it was just with their people. So it's a more honest assessment of the situation to see the behavior in that way and other than that, the pet custody work is much more about talking the people through. What does the dog mean to them? What do they want going forward? Who's got the best life situation for the dog? What are the underlying conversations and emotions that have not been expressed? And instead there people are just thinking well, at least I'm going to keep the dog. You know you took everything else from me and you broke my heart while I'm keeping the dog. And if you're in that mindset, you're not thinking about your dog, you're thinking about yourself. So that's the mind shift that has to happen. And then, other than that, because the conversation is a lot more about going forward in the future, I don't need to see the dog and touch the dog in order to know or offer suggestions about what the best thing to do is.
38:41
And when I do see people nearby me because I work with people all over the world, when I have an office and we do a mediation, I don't want the dog there, because the dog thinks they're at the vet and the dog is just suddenly terrified being in this weird room. Everybody's talking and acting weird. I mean the worst thing like. I heard this awful story. I think this has happened many times, but someone told me who'd seen it firsthand where there was a couple in front of a judge and I can't remember it was in the States, I don't remember which state and the dog The judge didn't know what to do. So the judge said let's go to the parking lot. Both of you call the dog, let's see who he runs to and that's the person who kept the dog, which is just an awful way. Oh my gosh, it's not, it's not, it's not the right way to make that sort of decision. So seeing the dog actually stresses the dog out If you're trying to talk about its future and people tend to sort of um, you know, when I've talked to mediators who have their clients bring the dog into the office, both people are just there trying to like prove the dog loves them more. You know, like, come here, rover, come come, and they probably put some cheese in their pocket or something.
Karen Covy Host
39:48
That's a really good trick. I'm going to have to remember that one.
Karis Nafte Guest
39:59
Yeah, cheese is magic. It's really good. Dogs love cheese normally, so that is why seeing the dog in person and me touching it is not relevant for all the other human conversations. The dog is almost the least complicated part of the conversation. It's about the people and their emotions and their plans for the future and the history of the dog and I also getting a long history of the dog. Whether I'm sitting with it or I'm talking to people on Zoom won't make a difference.
Karen Covy Host
40:26
That is amazing and I don't know where that story took place. But I have my own dog story, which is horrifying, and this wasn't my case, thank God. But it went all around the courtroom. I mean, this was in the days pre-COVID, when I mean, the lawyers were all over the courtroom all the time.
40:46
I was there every single day and there was a particularly high conflict couple and they were fighting about everything and they were, of course, fighting about the dog and so had witnesses and testimony. I have no idea what they did, but the judge ultimately said, ok, this spouse gets the dog, and I think it was. He gave the dog to the husband, although I'm not 100% sure and the husband and the wife were fighting. It was exactly as you said, that it wasn't really about the dog, the husband just wanted the dog because the wife loved the dog and the wife was bonded to the dog. And the judge made the opposite decision and said no, husband gets the dog and two days later he had him put down. It was horrifying, it was just so and that, needless to say, when the judge discovered that it did not go well for the husband. But even still, that's just. It's heartbreaking to me when people really are fighting about their own stuff. It's not about the dog.
Karis Nafte Guest
42:06
And if they are fighting about the dog, it's not about the dog that is so hard to hear.
Karen Covy Host
42:14
Yep, but okay, we've got it somehow. We've got to end on a more cheery note here. Okay, that was just like oh, downer, okay, so how about this? Can you give if people, if there's there are couples out there who are listening and they have a pet and they're trying to make this decision, do you have just a couple of tips that you can give them about how to handle pet custody in their divorce?
Karis Nafte Guest
42:42
My first suggestion to couples and any divorce professionals listening to this is try to talk about the dog as soon as possible, because if, the longer it is left, and it's a very hard thing, so most people don't want to talk about it. And then suddenly you're at the end and you're gosh, oh, my gosh. Now we have to address this huge, big, complicated, emotional thing. So talk about the dog as soon as possible so that you can do it with a clearer head and also so that the fear of the dog or the sort of dog doesn't sit in the background of the rest of the divorce negotiations, because it will. So that's my first thing is have an adult conversation about it. And the other thing is, especially if you do it early, it's perfectly okay to think of something to exchange for the dog. So the emotional realities of the dog are there and for some people like, let's say, maybe you know, okay, the dog should probably go with your husband, but maybe it's hard for you and it's emotional for you. If you can be really present with that in yourself, ask for something in exchange. Maybe there's something else that you can say okay, I'm going to give you the dog, which has that kind of emotional value In exchange. I would like this, whatever it is, to balance it out in my heart that I'm giving you this very important thing.
44:05
Some people, I think, feel embarrassed about doing that or they feel like it's wrong. And it's not wrong Sometimes. That's what we need in order to peacefully let the dog go, if you know your spouse is really where the dog is bonded and you know the dog will be happy with, or your ex-spouse, sorry and you know the dog will be happy with that person and there's no doubt about it. But it's hard for you to do that. Maybe there's some other way that you can offset that for yourself and feel okay about it. So get creative about what else could be offered. So that's something that's really helpful.
44:39
And then the other thing which I mentioned earlier is if people want to do shared custody, do it for a trial period and enter into that aware of the fact that it might become stressful for your dog. Some dogs are fine. Many dogs are not, and if you love your dog enough, you will not force them to live a life going back and forth between homes. Have that adult conversation with your ex. Say let's try this. Maybe the two of you need a period to sort of calm down and let the dust settle after the divorce. It might be an easier conversation later, or it might become crystal clear that the dog isn't coping, and then one of you will have to let it go, and that's just the way it is.
Karen Covy Host
45:26
Yeah and just sorry. The lawyer in me coming up says if you are going to do that, it is entirely possible in your divorce paperwork to set up a situation that says this is a trial period and after six months we will go to a mediator and definitely make the decision, but provide a mechanism by which you can make it, because if the two of you can't come to terms, the last thing a judge wants to see is to have you back in their courtroom, right? So finding a mediator you know, care as you, would be perfect, or even just anyone who can deal with that issue and is willing to do that for you after the trial period, would be so helpful.
Karis Nafte Guest
46:15
And you absolutely get everything written down. Don't ever do a verbal agreement. That is the worst thing. Yes, Even if you're, if you're not married but you're splitting up, get this part of it written down.
Karen Covy Host
46:27
Yeah, A hundred percent. This part of it written down yeah, 100%. As lawyers, we like to say an oral agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on and with that, which is definitely a happier place to wrap this up, Karis? I could go on and have another two, three hour conversation with you. This has been so amazing and so important. If people have questions, if they want to follow up with you, where can they find you?
Karis Nafte Guest
46:55
They can go to my website, which is whokeepsthedog.com, and what I offer to all my prospective clients is a free half an hour discovery chat with me. So if you're thinking about maybe going looking at mediation, just schedule a time with me. We can chat about it, see if it's a good fit. Whokeepsthedog.com. And also I'm very excited to say on my website yay, my first book is now available for purchase and there is a link on the website and it's a guidebook for people going through divorce. So it's a lot of what we've discussed here. Start there as well. Buy the book. If you're a vet, buy the book so you can help your clients. If you're a lawyer, buy the book. It's a guideline for anybody from any side of the circle of a pet custody matter. It's a really helpful thing.
Karen Covy Host
47:44
That book sounds like it will be so valuable and, just so everyone listening knows, everything is going to be linked in the show notes, so you'll have links to get to Karis's website to get to buy the book. I encourage you, please, if you are thinking about divorce or getting a divorce and you have a pet that you care about, for sure, for sure, get the book, because even if you're not fighting over who gets custody, understanding how you can help the dog transition and adjust and get through this time period has got to be a good thing. I'm thinking I don't know, maybe I'm crazy.
Karis Nafte Guest
48:19
Absolutely.
Karen Covy Host
48:20
Karis, thank you so much for being here on the show and for sharing all your wisdom, and for everyone out there who's been listening, I encourage you if you enjoyed this conversation, give it a thumbs up like. Subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you again next time. Thank you,
