When Kathryn Hoffman had to sell her home in her divorce in late 2009 she quickly discovered that her realtor didn’t have the divorce expertise required to answer her questions or help her make the best decisions.
Fast forward to today and as a Certified Divorce Real Estate Expert Kathryn now helps her divorcing clients get the information and support they need to sell their homes for the best price possible. Kathryn likes to say that in a divorce, she represents the house, not one particular spouse. She helps her clients deal with court orders regarding the house, and navigate the difficulties involved when one spouse wants to sell in the house, and the other spouse does not.
Kathryn holds the designation of an Accredited Buyers Representative (A.B.R.) as well as a Graduate of the Real Estate Institute (G.R.I.) and the prestigious designation of a Certified Residential Specialist (C.R.S.). Only 2% of Realtors across the country have earned the C.R.S. designation.
Graduating from Ilumni Institute’s master level training, led by family law attorneys, judges, Certified Divorce Lending Professional’s (CDLP) and divorce real estate experts, Kathryn “represents the house” as a neutral third party. Her extensive skills, training and education ensure the process is streamlined, fair and amicable for everyone involved by balancing neutrality and professionalism. She is also an affiliate with Collaborative Divorce Illinois (CDI), The DuPage County Bar Association (DCBA) as well as the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals (IACP).
Kathryn has earned the S.R.E.S. designation - Senior Real Estate Specialist- to assist with the needs of homeowners who may need extra care to prepare for the sale and move from their home. Other qualifications include C.N.E., Certified Negotiation Expert and P.S.A., Pricing Strategy Advisor designations.
Where to Connect with Kathryn
You can learn more about Kathryn on her website Realtor Divorce Expert and email her at [email protected]. You can also find Kathryn on Facebook at Kathryn Hoffman, Century 21 Circle, on LinkedIn at Kathryn Hoffman, Twitter at Kathryn Hoffman and her YouTube channel at Kathryn Hoffman.
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How a Certified Divorce Real Estate Agent
Can Help You Get More For Your House
divorce, house, realtor, attorneys, work, sell, person, process, catherine, karen, resources, emotional, items, real estate, living, divorce attorney, spouse, situation, Illinois, trained
Karen Covy, Kathryn Hoffman
Karen Covy 00:03
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so that we can find out what keeps us stuck. And more importantly, how do we get unstuck? I'm your host Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer and mediator turned author, coach and entrepreneur.
With me today is Kathryn Hoffman. Kathryn has worked in the real estate industry since 1993. And she's been licensed since 1999. She holds the designation of an accredited buyer's representative, as well as a graduate of the Real Estate Institute. She holds the prestigious designation of a Certified Residential Specialist, which only 2% of realtors across the country have earned. Kathryn also has a master's level training in divorce and real estate. And can, I'm using air quotes here, “represent the house as a neutral third party in the divorce.” Her extensive skills, training and education ensure the process is streamlined, fair and amicable for everyone involved. She balances neutrality and professionalism.
Kathryn is also an affiliate with Collaborative Divorce Illinois, the DuPage County Bar Association, as well as the International Academy of Collaborative Professionals. Kathryn, welcome to the show.
Thank you, Karen. Thank you for having me today.
It is absolutely my pleasure. If it's okay with you, I want to dive right into what you do and what makes you special? I mean, lots of people they know that in a divorce, you got to do something with the house. Right? People have the house and they have a retirement account. Those are the biggest things they're dividing, but why might they need a realtor, particularly someone like you who's got training in divorce?
Kathryn Hoffman 01:56
Well, that's a very good question, Karen. It's what a lot of people are still asking, including a lot of attorneys that I do run across that I'm working to introduce myself to. But what I've come across is it started from my own divorce. I started going through my divorce process in 2007. It took three years to go through that process. At the end of it, we had a marital home to sell. Now, if everybody remembers what was happening during that time, we were in a major recession, major recession. Even as a realtor, I'd go on Zillow, and I would watch my value take a nosedive, and it just panicked me because I lived in a small community. So, there wasn't a lot of homes being sold for to watch my value. So, I was very nervous about it. And when it came time to sell, I had my divorce attorney, my husband had his divorce attorney, and the kids at that time we had both of them in college. So, it was not a perfect world for either one of us or any of us at that point. I had a neighbor who was the top producer in our community that we lived in. He was also had been our realtor, and he's a very good friend of mine, still to this day. But many people don't realize, I could list my own house. But if somebody wanted to see it, you need somebody else to do it. Well, anybody that is currently going through a divorce or has gone through one, you just aren't having the best of time. I was very depressed. I wasn't thinking clearly. And I just thought to this nice gentleman here. You help me sell the house. And he did. He did help me through it. But there were times where I had questions. I had questions about the process pertaining to the divorce. Now, I'm a realtor. So, I know the real estate process. I know how to help people sell a home. But through a divorce, I was very conscious of calling my divorce attorney because I knew that that clock would start ticking. And that would just be more money to just answer a simple question. Even if it took 30 seconds, I'd probably be billed for a quarter hour. Asking that wonderful realtor friend of mine about it, often he didn't know the process of a divorce because he hadn't had one. He still hasn't. He's very happily married. So, I just had a lot of questions out there and there weren't divorce coaches. I was visiting a therapist. But again, there wasn't a real estate aspect to any of this. We muddled through. We had an offer. We accepted the offer. I moved out and started on my journey for the rest of my life. Thankfully, the recession ended and things picked up until we're here today where we're at with a crazy real estate market. But it always stuck in the back of my mind. It's like well, there should have been a better way. There should be help out there to get through this.
Well, ironically, people started asking me to help them sell their house while they're going through a divorce. My very first one was through a financial planner, that is also a good friend of mine. She gave me heads up. She said, “This could be challenging. There's a lot of animosity on both sides.” And I'm like, “That's fine. I'm actually very good with that. I'm patient. I understand emotions. I'm fine with that.” So, instinctively, I went to visit the wife first because they weren't living in the home together, visited her visited the home and took notes. And then later on, I did visit with the husband separately. She had her story, he had his story, and that's fine, the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Even then, I knew that I couldn't take sides. Absolutely, I couldn't take sides. It's different than when you're working with a couple that is together on their endeavor, they're looking forward to selling their house, or looking forward to buying a house or looking forward to moving even with all the craziness out there with a move, they're looking forward to it and they're looking for my guidance to get through it. This is not a happy situation. She wanted to be divorced and they both knew the home had to be sold, but they didn't know what to do.
So, I worked with each of their attorneys. And ultimately, it took about two years. We had the home sold and closed. And we had to navigate things such as we actually had to have a court assisted person come in to meet him to go to the house to pull his items out because she was upset that he would damage something of hers or take something of hers. She only trusted me, so I was also there that day as well. So, it was a very dramatic time. I was very happy to know that the person from the court actually said this would not have happened as smoothly if you had not been here and participated in this. And that really meant a lot to me. I really thought you know what, I think I have a gift for this.
Yeah, that sounds like it. Let me interrupt for a second because there's so much good stuff in what you said that I want to dive into. I mean, it sounded like in that situation, both people understood that the house had to be sold. What happens when one person maybe understands intellectually, but disagrees. They don't really want to sell the house. They don't want to be out of the house. What happens then?
Oh, absolutely. This is actually the most common occurrence. When I will get a call or sometimes a referral from one of my lending partners, there's a certified divorce lending professional out there or also perhaps another financial person, a certified divorce financial, and they’ll call me or they'll email me and say, “I got somebody. They can't decide. They want to keep the house, but they may have to sell it.” That's actually the most common scenario that happens. In fact, I've got paperwork over here. I did a market analysis yesterday. I'll do one again tomorrow. Often, they want to keep the house because they've got children at home and there's an emotional, whether you're celebrating birthdays, or holidays, or whatever, they want to keep that continuity, especially for the children. I can understand that and I appreciate that. But the first thing they have to figure out is whether they can, and so we're going to send it right back. If they contact me, we're going to send it right back to the lender, or the financial person and just see if they got enough income, wherewithal, if their debt-to-income ratios can make it happen. And Karen, that's even harder right now. Because we know what interest rates have done in the last 12 months, they'd gone up. Now, they’re starting to go down, and up and down a little bit but they're not going to be at 3% likely ever again because that means something's really wrong again with our mundane situations in our country right now. We just don't want it to be back at that way. We're in a pretty healthy situation, except for the amount of inventory that we have out there. So, again, going to the lender to work out those numbers and see if that person can buy out the equity of their partner, or if indeed they need to sell.
Karen Covy 09:33
Let's say they do need to sell. The couple has just run the numbers. They've done all the crunching and it's just they know it's not going to work and they have to sell. Are you able to also help them with the buy? Like they've got to move somewhere, and that's what I keep hearing. I'm not an expert, but I keep hearing it on the real estate world. There's a lack of inventory. So, the realtors are looking for people who want to sell but then the people who are selling, you're saying, “Where am I going to go?” Can you help people, especially in a divorce? And would you help both people in the couple to find another place to live?
Kathryn Hoffman 10:16
Absolutely. And that's a very good question. Part of my training is as CDRE, a certified divorce real estate expert, which is through the Alumni Institute, we are trained, while the home is being marketed, while I'm working as a neutral for both the husband and wife or whatever marital partners there are in the home, that I will not work with them to help them find their next house. I will refer that out. One, because it could be a conflict of interest or I could ask both of them, both of them might say, “Oh, yeah, I'm fine with that.” The human nature as it is, you don't know that she might get upset because I'm working with him or vice versa, that there might be some favoritism. And what I need to do is I do need to be the neutral in the case. So, as you explained earlier, I represent the house. I'm representing both of them to get their house sold to move it forward.
Now, after the home is sold and closed, if one of them wants to come back with me after their divorce, and would like me to represent them on a purchase, I would be more than happy to do so. If it needs to be done prior to that, I'm going to still represent the house on the sale. But I've worked with a team of people through my office that are very well qualified to help on that instance. And they will be right there.
Karen Covy 11:43
That makes sense. So, let me take you back again to that last story when there was somebody from the court who had to be present. If there's a lot of animosity between the divorcing couple, is that ever a service that you provide or do people need an outside person to be there to walk through the house, to make sure nobody takes what they're not supposed to take or ruins or destroys anything? Is that something you can do?
Kathryn Hoffman 12:18
I do that, yes. If it's requested of me, and I have no experience as let's say, a mediator, a trained mediator, I do not have that. I'm looking into it, but I do not have that. This case was a court appointed person. But the wife was so unnerved with her soon to be ex-husband there that she trusted no men, and the fellow from the court, very nice fellow, but he was a gentleman. And I'm obviously not, so I was there representing a neutral again. I followed him around as he worked with the husband to write down the notes of the items that would be removed from the home. And at times, I would just go check on her, and we got through it. It was a very emotional process. But yes, I would be willing to do that. Frankly, I think going above and beyond what the court ordered person in there, because again, that was a fee that both of them are going to have to split when it comes time to pay their expenses to their attorneys.
Karen Covy 13:26
100%. What you're saying is at least there was a court appointed person who doesn't sound like he was a lawyer, right?
Kathryn Hoffman 13:36
He was not a lawyer. He was strictly someone from the court. I don't have a title. I'd have to look back through my paperwork, but it was through one of the attorneys, because the attorneys at that point, we've had three-way calls, deciding how to best handle everyone and keep everything emotionally smooth and keep moving forward.
Karen Covy 13:56
That's something that I really want people to hear and let sink in. I mean, attorneys these days, especially in the Chicagoland area, which is where we're both located, right? They're going to start at 350 an hour, most of them and go up to 700, $800 per hour. This is not a job you want your attorney handling. You don't want them at the house for four hours. So, this is beautiful, that that's a service that you could provide to people as neutral because just having another human there can keep things from getting ugly, shall we say.
Kathryn Hoffman 14:40
Yes, absolutely. Karen, it goes from a couple like that to a couple that I've had where I don't know why they were getting divorced. They were very amicable with each other. They were still living in the same house. She had originally called me but they were meeting with me at the kitchen table together. I gave them my ideas for a few improvements to the house to get it ready. They said they do it, they did everything. And it broke my heart because all the way through, I'm not going to be nosy. I wasn't asking either one of them what is going on here? What's happening? I knew she was wanting to move away. She was going to move south. Eventually, she did. She signed off power of attorney for the closing. He was left in the home. Very nice gentleman. And it wasn't until I was coming back from the closing. And he was literally like sweeping out the garage, and going to be pulling away in the U-Haul. He thanked me for my help. He'd been pretty gruff and never a smiling person. And he finally looked me straight in the eye and he says, “I don't know how I got here.” I just went, “I'm so sorry.” That was how we parted ways. I think he just showed the first emotion that he had been with and it probably been a four-month process from originally meeting them to when they fixed up the house. And it was a nice house that sold right away until he drove down the driveway and drove away. I think I was just that last emotional contact with him. And I was glad I was there. I was really glad I went back to check on things and tidy it up for the family that was going to be moving in. So, I just feel like I want to be there for these folks. Because I felt like, again, it's not a diss to my realtor when I was selling my own marital home. It's certainly not that, but I just felt like I can and I know to do more, and I know how to handle it without being biased with one side or the other. So, you asked me earlier, what is it that I bring to the table other than the other 19,000 agents that we have and just my board alone here in Northern Chicago, it's my training, definitely that that comes across there. But it's also these folks are just not another transaction. They're not just a deal to have on a tote board somewhere for an award at the end of the year. I'm really invested in their well-being. And to get the most value that is out of the house that can be. Sometimes it's just a matter if somebody can clean up their house, sometimes that's all it takes. People get used to living a certain way and they don't see things anymore. they don't see that the ground is a little dingy or even a little moldy. They don't see that the fingerprints around the door handle and where you pull out the glass and coffee cup every morning. Those are just tiny little things that can really shows care for the house. And these buyers appreciate that. They'll pay more for a house that's clean, is freshly painted, carpets shampooed or your hardwood floors all shined up. I have resources for people that can help that in that way too.
Frankly, I've been known to cut down a shrub or two in the front yard, or polish up a front window to get ready for an open house. I just want to do everything I can because it is a lot of emotion when a person gets divorced. I can't stress that enough that sometimes the thing that happens is nothing. Everybody kind of freezes and they're paralyzed, and they just don't know what to do. I think they need, again, somebody that's not going to charge on the quarter hours to just say, “Okay. I'm lost. What do I do next?” Or maybe they're looking for a coach, and I've got names of people certainly.
Karen Covy 18:49
Yeah. What you said is so true, because the two things that people have going on then, at the same time, are selling a house, which is emotional and dealing with a divorce, which is emotional. Actually, I can throw in a third, which is getting rid of or downsizing their stuff. Especially now with the advent of more gray divorce, more people getting divorced after 20 years of marriage, 25, 30 years of marriage. If people have been in the same house for that length of time, that's a lot to deal with and a lot to manage. So, I'm assuming you have resources that you can bring to the table that will help people organize and downsize and cut through the clutter and that kind of thing.
Kathryn Hoffman 19:43
Oh, absolutely. It depends on what they want to do. If they already know the furniture that he's going to take, she's going to take and we've just got kids to pick up their stuff, I always recommend, put it in the garage, pick a weekend and a future date and say, “Okay. This is the weekend. If you don't come and get it, it's going to get tossed out.” They'll come and get what's important to them.
As far as resources as far as distributing items, I have people that are organizers that will help you sort through that, what you can keep, what you can donate and also places to donate to, and then place items that are just junk. And then when it comes to hauling the junk away, it could be just a few weeks of extra items at the corner or at the curb, or it could be that maybe you need one of the refuse haulers who also then most of them have gotten on board with not just taking everything to the dump. They themselves will sort out the items that maybe a donation place will take, usable, firm furniture. And again, you need to be careful with that, because you just can't assume that goodwill or any of them, because they don't take a lot of stuff anymore. They're very selective on their own. Especially something like a mattress, it has to be clean, and newer, and even a sofa, it has to be stain free. So, they might know resources that we don't even know. So, the good ones out there doing that. They're separating it. They're not just taking everything up and loading it into our landfills and filling that up. So, I do have those resources. I'm always looking for new names. I'm always adding to my list of people and resources for that. But yeah, that's another service that is provided and helpful.
Now, am I physically in there helping them do it? No, I'm not. I've done that one time with a very lovely lady who had a dining room table full of paperwork. And she really just needed somebody to sit beside her and help her sort that out. We just had an iced tea that day and sat there and chatted. A couple hours later, she'd gotten through it. I didn't touch a thing of hers. I just sat there with her. I think that was my aid that day was to help her. But no, I will find you people that will physically help you with that. But that's part of something I'm not going to do.
And that I totally understand, and I think everyone can respect that. The point is just giving them the resources, getting them the help that they need for whatever the task is. Sometimes, like to your point, just sitting with the person, sometimes it's just somebody being with them to help them get through. There's a lot to do. There's a lot of emotion involved for a variety of different reasons.
So, for example, if you're coming in with, let's say, I'm part of a couple and we're getting divorced, and we need to sell the house and we're kind of sad about it. We're not really excited about this, but we know it's what we have to do. Right? What would you tell me to do first, second? And third, do you have a process that you use to work with people? Or is it just, “Sign here, and I'll list your house or how people have to do?
Kathryn Hoffman 23:21
Well, yes, there is a definite process. People would say, “Well, there's always a process.” I mean, I've sold my house before the realtor comes in, we're sitting at the kitchen table. Well, yes. But keep in mind that there probably isn't going to be two people sitting at that kitchen table in the same house anymore. So, one of the first questions depending on who I'm contacted, and it could be through an attorney. One of my attorney referrals, they may contact me and it’s usually an email. And they'll say, I have a client. It’s usually a she. Not always but usually a she, will call. For instance, let's just say that. And so, we'll set up a time to do either a Zoom or a phone call, or generally that's the way it is initially. I'm not going to go over to their house initially, because there is an interview process prior to that. In some cases, they don't want the children to know yet, because the children don't know yet. That's why sometimes it's not always a Zoom. It's a phone call, because it's more private. So, it's like, “Oh, mom, who's that lady or something?” First question I will ask, and this is something that no other realtor is going to ask anybody, is are there any restraining order against the spouse that's no longer living in the house?
Now, there is not an agent that goes into a market analysis to sell a property and ask that question, but that is the first question that we ask. And you get a variety of, “Oh, no,” or “No.” And just depending on how that answer comes across tells me a lot about the relationship that's going on. So, there might be some abuse or something going on. So, I have to be very careful how I move forward into that. So, then it starts with some of the steps of, tell me a little bit about what's going on. They will often talk about the length of the marriage, or maybe he's just at work that day, or if he's moved out, or if there was some violence, or some of the children might have had some abuse against them, whatever reason that there is a divorce, I don't ask the specifics. I don't need to know that. Because again, I'm working up. I'm talking about the house here. But I need to have some personal background, because again, if they're in Illinois, both people will need to sign the listing agreement, because of our homestead relations here. So, even if one person bought the house, and there's one person on the title, the spouse does need to sign off on that listing agreement. So, I do you have a process and I have a selective amount of answers there that are kind of about the house, but also about them. And then I'll ask permission to say, “Well, if we are going to move forward with selling the house, I will need to speak to the other party.” In this case, let's just say it's the husband. “And would that be all right with you? Is that going to upset you? Because I have to include him on this.”
Well, let me stop you there because that's really important point. Sometimes people think, “Well, the house is in my name, so I can just sell it.” I don't need to tell my husband or my wife or my whoever, right? What do you do as the realtor? I mean, maybe I'm wrong. But don't you when a married couple is living in a house, do you need both people to agree it needs to be sold or can you start the process before then?
Kathryn Hoffman 27:09
I can start the process before then. But both parties would need to sign the listing agreement. And they need to be clear on that, that both parties have rights in Illinois, may not be that way in California, because there are different types of state out there. But in Illinois, the spouse has rights even if the other spouse, if they bought the house after they were married, that's still marital property. Even if I go in and do a title search, and there may be only one person on the title just because another one, maybe it was convenience, maybe they just forgot, but they didn't add that spouse into the title. We're not talking about the mortgage here. Because we've got two different entities here. We've got the title, that's the ownership of the house and the way it's owned, and then we've got the mortgage. And generally, there still is a mortgage on the house. There's not very many that are owned, free and clear. But there are two entities there. So, I will have to speak to the spouse that's no longer living in the house. And I will start with the same type of questions as far as keeping things equal, and keeping things low key. There might be a tangent that goes off as far as something said negative and it's like, “Nope, we need to circle back. I won't address that. I won't agree with it.” Well, let's get back to talking about the house. And so then, when it comes time to actually signing paperwork, of course, at some point, I need a home visit. I do need to visit that home. So, it is with the party that is living in the house, but I still need to make sure that that other party that's no longer living in the house is aware I am going to be going in and visiting the home for the purpose of listing the home and are they okay with that? At each point, I have to have confirmation that they're aware of what I'm doing and that they agree with what I'm moving forward with, and that they understand that. So, I'll set up a day to do a walkthrough of the house.
I've had an instance where they had planned to not have the kids in the home. But when I got there, there was a frantic gentleman running out of the house with silver dollar eyes that big because a daughter had not left that day. She was inside washing dishes. I'm like, well that's okay. I had a clipboard with me. He had mentioned that the windows were not good in his house. And I said, “Well, I'm going to be a window salesperson here.” So, as we walk around the house, I'm just going to pretend I'm looking at your windows, but I'm really going to be looking at the house. He, of course, came around with me. I saw the daughter. She was washing dishes. “Hello. How are you?” And she didn't think anything about it. So, those are ways that we just want to make everybody comfortable and I am not going to be the one to tell the kids that anything's going on. My car does not have even a realtor who license plate holder in the back or anything on it. It's a plain vehicle. So, I'm not advertising who's sitting in the driveway or in front of the house there. We don't want the neighbors to know either. That's not up to me to broadcast that particular news.
Karen Covy 30:17
I mean, we've kind of come full circle from the beginning of the interview, it's like, why do people need someone who's not simply a realtor, but who understands and has experience with selling property involved in a divorce. Because all of these little nuances, all of the little tips and tricks and questions that you ask, are things that I don't know that your average ordinary run of the mill realtor would know to do.
No. We’re not trained that way. I mean, our license law trains us in Illinois real estate license law. And then it's up to whatever brokerage that we affiliate with to train us on how to go out and get clients to list and sell homes for. It does not teach you anything. We are on our own if we want to do anything above and beyond that. I have taken not only a step, but extra steps and more steps along the way. And the training that I've had, we actually have three trainings per month in continuing education with outside speakers and trainers to constantly keep up with new items, new topics to talk about. So, we've not only been training gone through the 40 hours, as well as the after classes of it, but it's every month.
That sounds like, I mean, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it makes a difference, right?
It totally makes a difference. Plus, they're my support team. So, if we've got a question, I have two attorneys to contact or all the other CDREs out there that are like, “Hey, has anybody run into this situation? Well, how did you handle it?” So, I don't want to guess what somebody else's life and livelihood and what is often the most valuable proceed in their divorce. I mean, a lot of people may not have a pension or a 401(K) or anything like that. Their house equity may be their biggest asset that they're going to be separating or buying out from each other, and that's where I come in. Certainly, a realtor can come in, any realtor can come in and stick a sign in the yard but the extra things there, the extra nuance of handling the situation, that again, is what I'm trained to do. And particularly, in more difficult situations, I think it needs to be somebody that is trained in the sensitivity of it. Because if you're getting a divorce, there's just going to be some issues. Even if it comes down to who's going to get the dog on which weekend, which has been another issue sometimes. So, yeah, you just need to be aware that these things can come up, to expect them and then know how to handle them. So that, again, I can't stress going back enough how emotional this can be. And it is. It happens to everybody. I don't care what kind of person you are, you have emotions with you. And it's going to be hard at some point, particularly if you have children in the home.
Karen Covy 33:31
Yeah. Kathryn, the nuggets of wisdom that you have shared have been so, so helpful. And I hope that people out there are listening and hearing and understanding that you bring a level of expertise to this, that is just so helpful. Because when you're going through a divorce, I know from having worked with clients for more decades than I care to admit to, it's an emotional thing. You're already emotional enough. You don't need to add more stress to the table or to the situation, and that's what you help do is to dial down the stress. So, Kathryn, thank you so much for being here. As we wrap up, can you tell people where they can find you?
Kathryn Hoffman 34:16
Oh, absolutely, Karen. I have a website that's completely devoted to divorce. It's called realtordivorceexpert.com. And on there, will be my contact information. They can email me through the site, and my phone numbers on there too. I welcome phone call, a text message. I do have a Calendly calendar on there, so if they'd like to make an appointment through that, that's probably the best way to start. Again, that's realtordivorceexpert.com and easy-peasy, and I think there's good information on there as well.
Karen Covy 34:50
Thank you so much, Kathryn. I encourage people if they are thinking about buying or selling a house, especially in a situation that involves a divorce, it helps to get the extra expertise. So, I hope they will go look you up and go to your website. There's a lot of good stuff there.
Kathryn Hoffman 35:07
Thank you, Karen.
Karen Covy 35:08
For those of you who are out there if you enjoyed today's episode, if you like what you hear, if you want to hear more, I encourage you please do me a big favor, give this a thumbs up, subscribe to the YouTube channel, subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.