Episode Description
Lesa Koski - a lawyer turned mediator - has a passion for helping couples divorce differently and suffer less. In her work as a mediator, Lesa has identified 7 common dilemmas divorcing women face.
Those dilemmas range from finances to housing and from parenting to loneliness. To deal with all of these dilemmas, Lesa encourages her clients to educate themselves about their options and about how the divorce process works. She explains how mediation can be superior to litigation, and how it can be the first step in empowering someone to live a happier, healthier, and more empowered life after divorce.
While divorce is never easy, with the right mindset, education, and approach, divorce can be used as an opportunity for growth rather than simply as a sinkhole of pain.
Show Notes
About Lesa
Lesa is a wife, a mama, a grandma and an animal lover. She feels blessed to be serving people from her barn office and is obsessed with learning and communication. Lesa is an attorney turned mediator with over 20 years of experience. She has a strong desire to help people through difficult situations. The burning desire to reach more people led to the creation of her podcast Doing Divorce Different! Lesa is certified as a Life Coach by Self Made U. As a Divorce Mediator, Lesa walks clients through the divorce process with as much ease as possible. She offers one on one sessions and Divorce DIY Online Courses for a less expensive option where she will guide you through modules on MN Divorce Paperwork and a Parenting Plan that can be used in any state.
Connect with Lesa
You can connect with Lesa on LinkedIn at Lesa Koski, Facebook at Koski Law and Mediation, PLLC, YouTube at Lesa Koski Elder Law, Family Law and Mediation. Follow Lesa on X at Lesa Koski, on Instagram at koskilaw and listen to her podcast Doing Divorce Different! To learn more about working with Lesa and to access her DIY Online Course visit her website at Lesa Koski and you can book a one on one session with Lesa here.
Lesa is hosting Decoding Divorce Workshop in MN on April 25th from 9-1, for women who want to confidently navigate the legal and emotional aspects of divorce and beyond. And to learn how to unlock confidence through divorce and navigate legal and emotional terrain. To learn more about this event, email Lesa at [email protected].
Lesa Koski & Tami Wollensak’s free e-book, Divorce Essentials: The Ultimate Guide to a Successful Split.
You can also listen to Tami Wollensak’s episode on Divorce Mortgage Planning – Deciding to Keep Your Marital House Based on Fact Not Emotion.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Lesa
- Lesa Koski is an attorney turned mediator with over 20 years’ experience. She helps clients through divorce with ease via mediation, DIY divorce courses, and an online parenting course.
- Lesa's "why" evolved from wanting to help people come to agreements vs fighting it out in court. She focuses on kind, amicable divorces as the better way. Her passion is helping women in particular suffer less.
- She discusses 7 common dilemmas women face in divorce:
- Finances - Many women don't understand finances or assets. Lesa advises learning about assets, making a budget, and seeking experts like financial advisors if needed.
- Emotions - Divorce brings up strong emotions. Looking at them helps diminish their power. A coach can help manage emotions.
- Parenting/Co-Parenting - Having a parenting plan even before telling kids can help. Focus on your side and set boundaries in high-conflict cases.
- Judgment/Stigma - Lesa sees fear of losing friendships, telling parents, and stigma as dilemmas. Staying united as a couple can help.
- Legal Complexities - Many are uneducated about laws. Do research to understand asset division, child support etc. in your state.
- Housing - Keeping the house can be challenging with rates and affordability. Consider risks of co-owning afterwards.
- Loneliness - With shifting friendships and kids, loneliness is common. Self-care, community and human connection can help.
- Lesa offers mediation on a flat fee, online DIY divorce courses, a parenting plan course, podcast, one on one sessions to educate and support women through divorce.
- She aims to make divorce an opportunity for growth and wants to guide people to suffer less. Her mission is helping couples divorce more amicably.
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Transcript
A Conversation on Divorce, Mediation and Growth with Lesa Koski
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
mediation, coaching, financial, emotions, kids, boundaries, legal, housing, family
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Lesa Koski
Karen Covy Host00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covey, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I am very excited to have Lesa Koski. Lesa is also an attorney turned mediator. With over 20 years of experience as a mediator, Lesa walks her clients through the divorce process with as much ease as possible. She also offers online DIY divorce courses for the state of Minnesota and an online parenting plan course that can be used no matter where you are. Lesa is also a certified life coach. Her burning desire is to reach more people and it led her to create her podcast Doing Divorce Differently, which she films from her barn in Minnesota. Lesa, welcome to the show.
Lesa Koski Guest01:22
Karen, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and chat with you.
Karen Covy Host01:27
Yeah well, I'm excited to find another attorney who saw that things weren't working the way the system is currently set up and tried to do things differently, as you so aptly put it in your podcast. So I'm excited to dig into our conversation, and I want to start with your why. Why go from lawyering to mediating, to online courses, to in-person programs for women, which I know you also do? Why?
Lesa Koski Guest01:58
Yeah, and it's just been an evolution. That why has been evolving as I go. But I think, Karen, the first thing that happened was I was always this woman who was so drawn to do more and kind of that hyper achiever, and so of course you know, I went to law school. That made sense. And when I was in law school I remember we had a mediation course and I was so drawn to it and I loved it and I love the idea of working with parties and doing things together. But it was so interesting back then Everyone just said, oh, you can't have a practice just doing that, you can't do that. So I kept being told I couldn't do that.
02:42
So then I went out and I did my own thing for many, many years and then just did some real soul searching, kind of at a time in my life, you know, I think my kids were starting to head off to college and you know I started really thinking about what do I like to do? And I know that I love helping people come to agreements. And then I started. Then I got into mediation a little bit more and still people were saying you can't do it, you can't just do mediation, and I decided, well, forget about them, I'm just going to do mediation. So I put up my shingle and I started doing mediation in all kinds of different areas.
03:25
I do love mediation for any type of discrepancy, but what was happening is the divorces were coming to me and those were the people. And then this whole new world opened up, where I started seeing people are doing this different, people aren't fighting it out in court. There is a better way, and it was. From that moment on. It has just been my passion, really passionate about helping couples, and then specifically the women, because as I learn and grow and suffer less, I want to help them to suffer less too. And what a better time than when you're going through a divorce.
Karen Covy Host04:06
That's true. Like you and I both know, the thing about divorce is that it's not just like one thing. Really, divorce affects your finances, your family, your kids, your parenting, your lifestyle, your living arrangements. It affects so many areas of your life that the opportunity for growth in so many different directions is huge, so that it's just I love doing it for that reason to try to guide people and help them grow, and it's beautiful that that's your mission as well.
Lesa Koski Guest04:43
Yeah yeah, we have very similar missions and I'm so fortunate to have met you. I feel like I made a new friend, but I love that you say that it's an opportunity and let's use it as an opportunity for growth 100%
Karen Covy Host04:48
Make no mistake about it it's like when I say opportunity, I don't want to, I don't need to diminish the pain and the stress and the problems, and those are all very real. But, like it or not, as human beings, it seems that our biggest opportunities for growth come from the hard times, and so you might as well use a divorce for something that at least has a purpose, at least that it helps you to grow in a certain direction, and I know you feel the same way. And I'd like to take a step back and talk about divorce dilemmas. You talk about seven divorce dilemmas that women go through. Can you talk a little bit more about those? What are they? Why do they matter?
Lesa Koski Guest05:44
Yeah, and I've categorized them into seven and they're in no particular order, but it's just in the work that I've done, it's what I've seen my clients go through, and I think that maybe if you're just starting to think about divorce, or even if you're in it, it's good to look at these dilemmas, maybe even ahead of time, to prepare yourself for what's coming. And I think one of them and, like I said, it's no particular order, but one of them, and I think you mentioned this in the beginning is finances.
06:18
And so many of the women that I work with and we have a lot of great divorce they'll come into the mediation and they won't have any idea what's going on with the finances. And what I want to say is it's normal in a marriage that one person does certain chores and another does others, and if you weren't the one doing the finances, that's okay, but it can be scary, and so I always I want to help women get their mindset right about finances and I want to actually help them take some action steps. So for me to help them get their mind right is to just, you know, if they're beating themselves up and saying I don't know anything about this, I can say, hey, can you believe that you are a woman learning about your finances? They grab onto that, they feel a little bit more peace. And then I always want women to understand their assets.
07:16
So if you're going I mean even if you're just living in a marriage know where your assets are, start looking in the mail, you know. Look online, see where everything is, get an idea. And then the next step after that is always your budget, you know, and knowing what it may be if you do go through a divorce. So if you can clearly see what it's going to cost every month and what's coming in, you're going to be leaps and bounds ahead of all the other people who don't do that and you're going to have an idea of do you need spousal maintenance, you know, and how that's going to play a role. So just getting some information is an easy way to get a little bit of comfort and clarity.
Karen Covy Host08:00
Okay, so I just I have to jump in right now because I deal with so many people who are struggling with the same things, right? And what do you say to that person who says you know, I'm just, I'm not a numbers person, I don't get this stuff, I don't understand this stuff, I'm never going to understand this stuff? What do you say to someone who comes into your office and that's what you're dealing with?
Lesa Koski Guest08:26
Yeah, you know, and that's interesting because in all my years I feel like they've always been open to listen and learn, and so that's where I can kind of come in and help them change that mindset, because it doesn't have to be hard. I've been through this. I thought it was hard, I thought it was difficult. I have been there with finances and suddenly it becomes so simple it's what you have, it's what's coming in, so it's just working with them so that they can see that.
Karen Covy Host09:01
You know I agree, but what do you say? I'm just poking at you playing devils advocate hit here.
09:06
What do you say to the person who says you know, I don't know what I'm going to have post-divorce, I don't know what my expenses are going to be. I don't even know where I'm going to live, so how can I put all of this together? So they're kind of in a chicken and an egg dilemma because they don't know what it will be. So they look at you and they say, well, how can I plan for it if I just don't know?
Lesa Koski Guest09:27
Right, and that's the thing. It is a little bit subjective. I mean, you are kind of doing your best guess on what and that's all you can do. It's juggling, the pieces are moving and so you're going to take a stab at well, this is what it's going to cost for the home. But I want to say, too, that there are people that can really delve in with your finances. There are experts, and so I do call them in and I would send them contacts for people that can help them. Even if there's people that can help you if you're concerned about your spouse hiding assets, that's not something that I do, but I can point them in the right direction, and so maybe someone like what you're talking about, who is totally like I can never learn this, that might be a perfect time to call in one of those financial specialists to help.
Karen Covy Host10:20
That what you're saying is so important I really want people to hear it because you don't have to go through a divorce alone, right, and the idea of putting the team together around you that you need. Right, and your team might be different from the next person's team, and that's okay, but putting together that team to support you and learning as much as you can in the process is going to be best, not just for the divorce but for your life afterwards.
Lesa Koski Guest10:51
Yeah, and you know it's also true. Getting them a good divorce coach is going to help too, because they're going to feel like they've got someone on their team pointing them in the right direction. It's just yeah, it's a no brainer.
Karen Covy Host11:06
That's what I think. Of course, I'm a little bit biased, but I want to jump in and play devil's advocate here, because I hear so many people say what do I need a coach for? I'm going to have a lawyer, I'm probably going to have a financial advisor. Why do I need a coach? I have a therapist. Why do I need a coach?
Lesa Koski Guest11:23
Coaching is different than therapy, isn't it Coaching is. Coaching has changed my life and it's helped me move forward and do things different. But I think, in particular in the situation like divorce, if you can have somebody who has the skills of a really good coach to change your mindset and the understanding of divorce, you are going to save money by having that person on your side walking you through. Someone like you, Karen, can really help people through the process and it saves a lot of time and money and worry and headaches to have that person on your team.
Karen Covy Host12:07
Right, and I think that's important for people to understand as well. Too. Obviously, the money is important. Divorce is a big change in your financial circumstances, but it's not even just the money, it's the peace of mind, it's the knowing that not having to be up at two o'clock in the morning worried about am I doing the right thing? Am I making the right choice? Am I? You know, when you have someone like you to guide them, it makes a huge difference. So the first dilemma, then, it sounds like, is financial. At least six more. What are the other dilemmas?
Lesa Koski Guest12:44
Yeah, there's six more. And, as you were talking, I'm looking at my list and I'm thinking about you and coaching and I thought finances and I just feel like that emotional piece of divorce is something that a coach can help with as well, and it's so important to be aware that that's a huge piece of this divorce and you know, when I'm working with couples together, it comes. Emotions are strong. It's why I do it on a flat fee. I want them to have the time to breathe, to take a break, to not feel like, oh my gosh, your hourly rate is going to kill me. So you know the emotions and I'm sure that you coach people through the emotions all the time and what I have learned is to be aware of them, see them and sometimes, even when you just look at them, they have less of a pull on you. So that wasn't the next one I was going to talk about, but I think I mean it's tied to all pieces of divorce the emotional impact.
Karen Covy Host13:44
Yeah, the emotions are a big part of it. I mean, as you know, emotions drive divorce and simply by being aware of your emotions and then hopefully learning to manage them, you're never going to. People want to control their emotions. I don't know whether you could ever really do that, and if you do, if you stuff them all down, they tend to come out sideways, usually at the worst possible time. So I don't know that that's a good strategy. But learning to manage them is going to put you light years ahead of where most people are in divorce and, to your point, help people save time and money as well. So what are some of the other dilemmas?
Lesa Koski Guest14:30
All right, the one that I really want to make sure we talk about, which is probably the top issue when I have parents parenting, co-parenting and it is my passion. I mean, I'm a grandma, a mama, I love children and it has really drawn me into this divorce mediation to feel to help people, be amicable, because it is better for your children, and that's where I have that parenting plan course If you can get a plan set up, even if you can do it before you start the divorce paperwork, that way, sometimes people do better if they have a plan and then they tell their children, because that's a really tough spot to be in and there are so many issues around parenting and so many tools to help you and lots of information out there too.
Karen Covy Host15:22
There really is. There's a lot more available to people today than there was when I started doing this a few decades ago, but it's important. You know people need to know the tools are there, or the tool is useless, right, you can't use it if you don't know it exists. Which is why connecting with someone like you is so important because you know this stuff, you've got the resources down and can say, okay, try this, try this, try this, look at this, look at that. What advice would you give parents who are divorcing and they really want to do right by their children? They don't want their divorce to send their kids into therapy for the rest of their life, but they really don't like each other and they're not sure how amicable they can be about the divorce itself. What advice would you give those parents?
Lesa Koski Guest16:17
That's so hard and I'm so blessed because I have a lot of people that want to work together and it still can get dicey. But if you are, even if you're parenting with someone who isn't going to be helpful, isn't going to be someone that you can really work with, you can kind of take care of your side of the street. And what we've heard is that if children see one parent functioning real well, that's a game changer. So don't be so concerned that it's going to ruin your child because the other parent isn't coping. They get to see someone really deal well with it.
16:54
So I think, and then I think you set up boundaries. When it's really high conflict, you set those boundaries up, and that's why that parenting plan is important too, because you can look back to that and say well, I see we discussed it here and this is how we decided to do this. So and then also keeping it so that you have certain times that you talk and that when you discuss your divorce, you're only discussing your divorce, you're not discussing the children, and then you set up a different time. So there's lots of tools that you can do. There's, I give, lots of tips on how to deal with triggers how to tell your kids you're getting divorced. There's so much involved.
Karen Covy Host17:36
Yeah, there really is a lot involved. But I love that idea of you set up a time to talk about your divorce and you set up a different time to talk about your kids. And I think what people often lose sight of too is that all the divorce stuff. For most people that part ends. You get divorced, you divide up assets and debts and all those things, and then what you're left with is talking about the kids and, yes, money in child support or activities or health, health insurance, medical bills, those kinds of things. You've still got money involved, but it's qualitatively different. So I don't know. I find if people can see the light at the end of the tunnel, somehow that makes it a little bit easier. How about you?
Lesa Koski Guest18:24
It's a great perspective that I haven't thought of. But yes, that's so true, and I love what you were saying too, because when you have children, you are connected for the rest of your life, not till they're 18. So you might as well do your very best to get along if you can, and, if you can't, learn how to cope on your own.
Karen Covy Host18:44
Okay, so we've covered the finances. We've talked a little bit about emotion. We've talked about kids. What are some of the other dilemmas that women should look out for when they're going through a divorce?
Lesa Koski Guest18:55
Well, I think what I've seen and it's maybe not as prevalent as it was in the past but judgment and stigma. You know being in that world where you are a couple and suddenly you're not and there's, you know, the fear of losing friendships. But, Karen, one thing that I found really interesting, and you know, I have these beautiful clients who come to me together and are kind and want to do it a better way, but they too have these issues. They're afraid to tell their parents. So, you know, you think about how you're terrified to tell your children. Well, these people are saying we have such a great relationship with our in-laws and we don't want them to think this is going to affect them. And I have helped them. You know, they all may be draft an email together and say this doesn't have anything to do with my relationship with you, because there are, you know, there's just so much more involved than just the two people. So it's kind of another point to think through.
Karen Covy Host20:00
That is really amazing. You know, in all the years that I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. I've never heard anyone coach, lawyer, therapist nobody talk about the impact of the divorce on your relationship with your in-laws. And if you have that good relationship and you don't want to lose it, that could be really tricky, mm-hmm.
Lesa Koski Guest20:26
But I do know a lot of people who have kept that relationship, you know. So it is possible.
Karen Covy Host20:33
Absolutely, and that's beautiful, that you help people with that and I think to your point.
Lesa Koski Guest20:40
It's so important that if the couple wants to stay amicable and they can put forth that united front to the parents, that should help it does, and some people even choose to send out a message to their family and friends together, you know, so that everybody knows it's yeah, you know, celebrities do that all the time.
Karen Covy Host21:04
Yes, they put out the little press release and it's short, it's to the point, it's something like you know, yeah, this is happening and we'd appreciate your support and you know, basically something that says staying out of our business and don't ask us questions. Right, and it works, and there's no reason why your average everyday person can't do something similar. So, okay, that's another dilemma. We've still got a couple more. You know, I think we do.
Lesa Koski Guest21:35
We do Very good, okay, so of course, the legal complexities. And you know, Karen, I don't know if you find this, but I have so many clients that come to me completely uneducated, and you know, marriage is a big deal. It's a commitment. You know, it's a legally binding arrangement and there are lots of laws around that that you are going to have to work through in a divorce. And so I guess I would just always say, of course, hire your divorce coach. If you're going to use a mediator, make sure it's someone who understands the laws, because I can give legal information. So when people are working with me, I can give them all the legal information about the Minnesota laws and how they work. But if you're in another state, do some due diligence research. You can even go to government websites just so you have an idea of how assets are, you know split, how child support works. It's not rocket science, right? You can find the information there and then you'll have a better idea of how things are going to play out.
Karen Covy Host22:46
Yeah, I agree completely. I mean they say that knowledge is power. I think knowledge is potential power. You've got to actually use the knowledge. You have to get the power. But still, if you don't know, if you're operating blindly, that's when fear can really get a hold of your heart, because you don't know what to expect, you don't know what the laws, you don't know what your rights are, your responsibilities are what the law requires of you and without knowing that, the monkeys in your head can just go crazy and start to have a party right. So I love that. What you say is go get that information, arm yourself with that knowledge about the law, because it's not the law. I don't know what you think about this. You can let me know. The law isn't the biggest part of most divorces, but you still have to understand what it is and how it works.
Lesa Koski Guest23:47
Yeah, it's like the skeleton or something. It's a piece of it. We have to know how it works, and then you can design your divorce how you want to.
Karen Covy Host23:56
Yeah, that's beautiful. Okay, we've still got two more dilemmas.
Lesa Koski Guest24:00
All right. So housing, right now, housing is a big one and I want you to know I'm going to send you an ebook that I did with Tami Wollensak which is, yeah, it talks about mediation and how to prepare for divorce and it talks about your house, because right now, everyone, if they have children, they're concerned about their children. If they own a house, they're concerned about what are we going to do with the house. Because interest rates are good, they're probably paying a low mortgage rate and how are they even going to afford anything different? So I think, if you can find, like in that little ebook, if you can put it in your show notes, connect with like a Tami Wollensak or someone. What are they? A divorce financial, a certified divorce lending professional? Thank you, that's what she is. It's a free resource and they can help you understand.
24:55
There are times when you can assume the mortgage, which means you'd keep that interest rate and you would take one person's name off, but a lot of times that doesn't work and, Karen, it can get so messy. In fact, I'm seeing some new mediations pop up from couples who decided to continue to own their home together and I have people doing that because they don't want to let it go right now, and then there are fights later because they're owning this together. You can own a home together, you can own a business together, but you want to think through. Do you really want to?
Karen Covy Host25:34
Yeah, and what you're raising such an important point. And first of all, let me just put it out there Tami Wollensak is amazing. She is totally top notch when it comes to a divorce lending professional, so I love that you did the book with her. We will definitely link to it in the show notes, so thank you for that. But it's really a challenge for people because, like you said, can you continue to own a house together, own a business together? Of course you can. However, you've got to understand there are risks to doing that. There's upsides and downsides, just like with anything else in life, and so part of your thought process as you're making that decision about do we continue to co-own something post-divorce is what happens when things go south. I mean, thankfully, people can go back to mediation with you. I mean I think that's something important for everyone to hear is, just because your divorce is over, it doesn't mean that they never can go back to you if they have another problem.
Lesa Koski Guest26:43
But it's something you've got to think about on the front end and I think when you own that home together it leaves the door open a little bit for needing mediation. I always want to set up our divorce paperwork so that people aren't coming back. We want to make sure we address everything and think through everything, but it does happen, and especially when you have children.
Karen Covy Host27:10
Yeah, and I think what I'd love for people to hear about you is that I mean they could be going back to mediation because of the house, or it could be other issues. It could be that your kids are growing up and the schedule that worked five years ago just doesn't work now and you're having a problem working it out. There is no reason why people couldn't go back to a media or go back to you, and that will help them not just work out the issue but preserve their relationships. They're not at each other's throats. Yes, so important it is. One more. We've got one more dilemma. Let's talk about that.
Lesa Koski Guest27:49
The last dilemma is loneliness, and it's just something to think through and I actually I've done podcasts on this and there's loneliness for you and maybe friendships change. There can be loneliness. A lot of people feel like I can't imagine not seeing my kiddos every day. There's just lots of issues and I think just to do your best to take care of yourself and make sure that maybe you reach out to people. Sometimes having a community can help, which is why I'm having an in-person workshop if you're in the Minnesota area On April 25th you can find it on my website for women, kind of to create that community of people in a positive. You know we want this to be an opportunity to grow, but you know there's little things that you can do and I had a therapist on who talked about loneliness and divorce and we came up with the idea even if you just get out to the grocery store and you smile at the cashier, there's a connection there that means something.
Karen Covy Host29:05
That is so important and it's beautiful and we will definitely link to your event in the show notes. So, for anyone who's watching this or listening to it, if you're interested, definitely jump into the show notes and, you know, check out the in-person workshop, because it's that human connection and the challenge I mean it was, you know, with COVID. The positive was that we found a lot of alternative ways to do things. The negative is usually that breaks the connections that we had. You don't have to go to the grocery store anymore. You can order online things delivered.
Lesa Koski Guest29:43
So what I hear you saying is you might want to forgo the convenience of that and actually get back into the world and see other humans and it's gonna take a little effort, you know, maybe going to the local gym or whatever it is that you that will connect you with someone and, of course, get therapy talk therapy, if you need it 100%, 100%.
Karen Covy Host30:09
Lesa. This has been speaking of talking. This has been a wonderful conversation. It just blew by. Thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom. Before we leave, though, and before we wrap it up, tell people where they can find you?
Lesa Koski Guest30:25
Sure, the easiest thing is just to go to lesakoski.com and it's L-E-S-A, just yeah. So, Lesakoskycom, you will be able to find everything about me there my Instagram, my LinkedIn, my Doing Divorce Different podcast. Everything's on that website, so you should find me there.
Karen Covy Host30:47
That is absolutely awesome, Lesa. Thank you again so much for being here and for those of you who are listening, for those of you who are watching. If you enjoyed today's episode, if you like what you hear, please do me a big favor. Give it a thumbs up, like subscribe, and I look forward to seeing you again next time. Thanks so much.
