Episode Description - Beyond the Bedroom: How to Create Relationship Intimacy
Relationship intimacy is complicated.
In this podcast episode, Dr. Jenn Kennedy, a clinical sexologist and licensed marriage and family therapist, unpacks the complexities of relationship intimacy, diving deeply into the challenges couples face when navigating sex and desire.
Dr. Kennedy breaks down the common struggle of desire discrepancy—when partners have mismatched levels of sexual interest—and explains the emotional, biological, and relational factors that often drive these differences. She candidly reveals why most therapists aren’t adequately trained to handle issues around sexuality and how this impacts the relationships of the couples those therapists work with.
With humor and wisdom, Dr. Kennedy offers actionable strategies that will help couples reconnect, emphasizing the power of newness and intentionality to revitalize intimacy.
Whether it’s learning to plan creatively or rethinking what sex means, Dr. Kennedy’s advice is refreshingly accessible and empowering.
This episode isn’t just about relationships—it’s about redefining intimacy and discovering how to create a more connected, fulfilling partnership.
Show Notes
About Dr. Kennedy
Dr. Jenn Kennedy is a clinical sexologist and licensed marriage and family therapist based in Santa Barbara. In her private practice, Dr. Jenn sees couples and individuals in the areas of relationships, sex, addiction and LGBT. In 2019, she founded her clinical group practice, Riviera Therapy, and under this umbrella, she supervises up-and-coming clinicians. In 2023, Dr. Jenn launched The Pleasure Project, which is dedicated to helping us all have a better sex life. Through this venture, Dr. Jenn hosts a podcast called The Pleasure Project with Dr. Jenn Kennedy and she offers small group intensives for women and couples called The Pleasure Circle. Dr. Jenn has been quoted in Redbook, Reader’s Digest, Forbes Health, DailyOm, Shondaland, Parade, Allure, Yahoo!life and others. She is often tapped to discuss intimacy and sexuality for therapists and physicians.
Connect with Dr. Kennedy
You can connect with Dr. Kennedy on LinkedIn at Dr. Jenn Kennedy and Facebook at Riviera Therapy. You can follow Dr. Kennedy on YouTube at Dr. Jenn Kennedy, on Instagram at Dr Jenn Kennedy and on her Podcast Pleasure Project: Sex and Relationships. To find out how to work with Dr. Kennedy visit her website at Pleasure Project.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Dr. Jenn Kennedy
- Dr. Kennedy is a clinical sexologist and marriage therapist who came to the field after careers in publicity and photography, getting her degree at age 40 and later specializing in sex therapy due to noticing a significant gap in couples therapy training around sexuality.
- Most marriage/family therapists receive only one basic course in human sexuality, leaving them underprepared to handle complex sexual issues like desire discrepancy, erectile dysfunction, religious concerns, and trauma.
- Desire discrepancy can be caused by biological factors, psychological factors, and interpersonal factors.
- For couples in long-term relationships experiencing sexual boredom, introducing any element of newness can help rekindle interest by engaging the brain's attention and creating excitement.
- Dr. Kennedy advocates for a broader definition of sex beyond just penetrative intercourse, especially for aging couples, emphasizing that pleasure and connection can come in many forms including touching, kissing, and other intimate activities.
- She runs a program called the Pleasure Circle, a 6-week online course for women looking to understand and reclaim their sexuality, featuring lectures, writing prompts, and group discussions.
- In relationships where one partner (often women) refuses physical intimacy due to relationship issues, . Kennedy notes a common pattern: men typically need physical intimacy to feel emotionally connected, while women often need emotional connection to desire physical intimacy.
- Couples can have a healthy relationship without sex if both partners agree, but problems arise when one partner wants sexual intimacy while the other doesn't.
- For aging couples dealing with physical changes, Dr. Kennedy emphasizes the importance of open communication, medical support, and adapting sexual activities to maintain comfort and pleasure.
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Transcript
Beyond the Bedroom: How to Create Relationship Intimacy
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
sexologist, intimacy, desire discrepancy, pleasure
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Dr. Jenn Kennedy
Karen Covy Host
00:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision-making so we can discover what keeps us stuck and, more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator and arbitrator, turned coach, author and entrepreneur. And now, without further ado, let's get on with the show
With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr Jenn Kennedy. Dr Kennedy is a clinical sexologist and licensed marriage and family therapist based in Santa Barbara, California. In her private practice, Dr Jenn sees couples and individuals in the areas of relationships, sex addiction and LGBT. In 2019, she founded her clinical group practice, Riviera Therapy, and under this umbrella, she supervises up-and-coming clinicians. In 2023, Dr. Jen launched the Pleasure Project, which is dedicated to helping us all have a better sex life. Through this venture, Dr. Jenn hosts a podcast called the Pleasure Project with Dr. Jenn Kennedy and she offers small group intensives for women and couples called the Pleasure Circle.
01:31
Dr. Jenn has been quoted in Redbook, reader's Digest, Forbes Health Daily, aum, Shondaland, Parade, Allure, Yahoo Life and others. She's often tapped to discuss intimacy and sexuality for therapists and physicians. Dr Jenn, welcome to the show.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
Thank you. Good to be here.
Karen Covy Host
It is great to have you, and I'd like to start at the beginning, so to speak. I mean, becoming a clinical sexologist is not well, it's not something that most young kids aspire to, be right? So how? What got you into this practice? How did you get to where you are now?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
02:10
Yeah, definitely Well, I started doing other things. First, I was a, initially I was a publicist, then I was a photographer. I did each of those for a number of years and you know, in college I had seen a therapist and I found that intriguing. It was always sort of in my back brain to be a therapist and I literally went back to grad school at 40. I was like I had always wanted to do this. It was like this sort of secret desire. And then I started going down that path, really wanting to be a couples therapist, because I had also done that, that work as a, as a couples. Um, you know, I had gone into couples work.
02:52
And then, as I got deeper into couples work, I realized that there was so little information about sex. Like that is just such a gap in our training and nobody wants to touch it, nobody wants to do the couple's sexuality piece of it and I realized there is such a need, there is such an opportunity. You know when as a business person, like when you see a niche that is like it's there's a reason for it but also there's an opportunity for it. So, I went toward it and initially I just took a little bit of coursework and then I really did a deep dive and I did a whole PhD in it and it's been great. That's what makes it a sexology is that I did a PhD.
Karen Covy Host
03:36
I noticed in your bio you said that you also train other therapists and physicians and intimacy and sexology and I just I'm so curious what don't therapists know about sex? Because you just mentioned you get very little training in that and people go. Their marriage is in trouble. Often sex is a part of that. They go to just a regular couples therapist expecting that person to be able to fix everything. Can you talk a little bit about that and why that might or might not be a good idea?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
04:08
A normal LMFT gets one course in sex. That's the human sexuality course. Typically, like in my program, it was the last quarter within the two years. Uh, master's course is human sexuality and that is a very cursory pass on sex, right it's. It's sort of a kind of a redo of what you got in. You know your basic human sexuality course that you got in high school. It's a bit of anatomy, it's a bit of like what happens, but it's not sufficient at all.
04:44
Actually I've taught that course at the master's level. I know what that course is supposed to be. But in terms of actually understanding desire, understanding desire discrepancy, trying to do a deeper dive in terms of what happens relationally, what happens as we go through the life cycle, what happens at different stages, you know, for couples, what happens when there's injury, what happens when there's sex abuse, what happens, you know, there's all these different scenarios that therapists are not equipped to really handle because they just don't know. There's just a lot of different scenarios when there's religiosity, when there's high anxiety, when there's erectile dysfunction, that happens because of biology or medication. There's just all these different scenarios that we're not educated to address. So that's what happens when you get more advanced training.
Karen Covy Host
05:41
Wow, there is so much in there that I want to go into now. So, you just mentioned desire and desire discrepancy. What is desire discrepancy?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
05:53
So that is when you have two people that have different desire levels, so, which is usually what presents like one person wants it a lot more than the other person does, so there's a discrepancy in terms of desire.
Karen Covy Host
06:07
Okay, why would that be? I mean, don't aren't all humans born with the same biology? Don't we all want the same thing?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
06:14
No, no, no, of course not. Like, think about, I mean, even the two, the same two people that sometimes want sex but they don't want it on the same day at the same time. Right, it might be one. One might be having backache, one might be having a bad mood, One might be having resentment, one might be having body image issues. You know, there's like a whole host of reasons. I like to look at it through like the lens of biological, psychological, interpersonal. Right.
06:50
There's three big kind of categorical things that can impact. Biological would be, say that you're having I mean, it could be as broad as like if you're having blood, blood flow issues, if you're having medication issues, that type of thing you know. So there's medical issues that would be causing issues that are having problems that would interrupt. Psychological issues might be things like if you're having depression or anxiety or those types of things you know that take you out of the game.
07:22
And then relational issues if you're carrying resentment, if you're having distrust you know, say you've had a fight earlier in the day, or if there's been infidelity, or those types of things, there's relational breakdown, right, and it could be for both of you, it could be for one of you, so all three of those things could be happening in the same relationship, or one or all three of those things could be happening for one person or both people. So, there's so many variables that could be happening at any one time. So that's why when we sit down, when I sit down with couples, it's like okay, let's do a recap and does the couple even agree on what's happening? Because oftentimes they're not even seeing the relationship the same way.
Karen Covy Host
08:06
That's interesting, right, because you know one person, if you've got this desire discrepancy which is something that happens a lot, that I get you know that I get from my clients sort of secondhand like they're not coming to me for sex therapy but it's like, yeah, our, our sex life has died a long time ago, or you know my wife never wants to have sex, or my husband never wants whatever, it is Right, yeah. So when that happens and there's this desire discrepancy, how do you deal with that?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
08:44
Well, first of all, you have to have two people that even want to deal with it. There's got to be buy-in that they both even want to address it, because if one person is dragging the other person in, it's not really going to go anywhere. So you've got to first of all have two humans that want to deal with it is number one. And if they're both on board, then what?
09:15
What is the nature of the problem? When did it start? When does it happen? Um, you know, trying to establish sort of what's, get our arms around what's going on, um, and then start to unpack what might we do about it? Because, you know, trying to interrupt the cycle of what's the problem. When does it get better? What might we do about it?
09:39
Typically, couples can go back to an early period of time where things were better, and if we can source from that. You know, maybe what makes it better? Cause usually they can look at the beginning and things were better sexually. They can remember when things were just easy. It was natural. They wanted to, like, get together. They had, um, spontaneous desire for one another. Um, what was going on then? There were less obstacles to desire, you know. So sometimes we can, we can source some of that and and have it happen. We can remove some of the obstacles that seem to get in the way. We can also plan, some of the things you know remove some of the obstacles and plan some of the things.
Karen Covy Host
10:24
That sounds so unromantic.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
10:33
I know, I know it's funny, some people are very opposed to planning and then some people are like really practical about it. I find that I'm okay with either, right, if you're. If one person's a planner and one person's not, then I say the planner person plans it and the spontaneous person doesn't have to know about it, and then it feels like it's spontaneous to them, right, and that's okay, right, and they think it's just spontaneous. Um, but yeah, it's like you know, in a long-term relationship in particular, things start to feel very familiar and sometimes that starts to feel very boring, and so sometimes you have to be kind of practical about it and a willingness has to come in to sex in particular. Right, there has to be a willingness to approach this with some intentionality.
Karen Covy Host
11:22
Well, let's talk about that, because, especially in a long-term relationship or a long-term marriage, whichever it happens to be, what kind of advice or tips could you give to a couple that, like their relationship is floundering? Sex is a part of that and they want to zip things up again. They don't want a divorce, they don't want their relationship to die, they want sex, but they're bored. Like what can they do? What's the first thing that they should try? Should they go to someone like you Are there, you know things that they can do, exercises, or you know, I don't know what should they do? What's their first step?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
12:13
well, what I will say is anything new starts to wake the brain up a bit, and so seeing each other with any is any sort of contextual change is interesting. So, if they went to a new place, if they brought in a new thing to read, if they went on a date to a place they've never been, if one of them brought in a new toy, you know, anything is like what's that? Right. But if you go to the same bedroom and you start it the same way and you do it at the same time, it's like boring, you know, it's so familiar. But if you do anything different, even if you introduce, like a new piece of lingerie, anything, the brain's like what's that? You know? Like it likes some piece of newness and it doesn't, even if it's perfume, like right, there's just anything new. You like it yourself, and typically your partner's like wait, that's different, what's that?? You know. So if, even if you approach differently, you know I was thinking we might try this new thing, it's like what, okay, right, the brain starts to kind of respond and it gets a little like, because there's a little bit of nervousness in that because it's different, but there's also a little bit of excitement in that.
13:40
So, if that feels like something you can manage as a couple, or if there's a willingness to do that, there's lots of ways to prompt. Esther Perel has a wonderful card set that can give some prompts. There's external ways that you can get ideas for that. There's certainly, you know I, like I have a course, that kind of help with that too. There's external ways if you, you know, if you as a couple, can manage that. There's coaching, there's ways to do that. But yeah, see if you can try to introduce some of that into your relationship, because I think it makes a difference and I think if you're both committed to it, you know, don't get lazy, don't get complacent in your relationship, because, yeah, it doesn't feel fun.
Karen Covy Host
14:22
Well, what happens if you've got a couple and they've hit that complacent stage, right, they're, things aren't fun, they're not exciting They've got into the land of meh, right, everything is meh and one person feels like they can't do this, like they've had enough. They want the change and the other person is comfortable. Can the person who wants the change is that enough? Can they insert enough newness and enough vitality that, as long as the other person will go along, can reignite the relationship? Or do both people have to be actively working at this?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
15:05
I would wonder if the person that's ignited the change would start to feel resentment, or if it feels like enough that they at least have a co-conspirator, you know, that's willing to, to accompany. I mean oftentimes in many relationships I would say, you know, older, like above 50 years old, kind of an up men, historically have been the instigators. You know they've been more the initiators and so they've taken on that role. Um, so is that? Is that such a foreign concept? No, but if as long as they have receptivity, as long as their partner is interested. So, I don't know if, if one person, as long as there's interest and there's receptivity, maybe that's okay. It's always kind of what the couple, whatever they negotiate, is fine by me it sounds like it's worth a try for somebody listening.
16:05
I like to see that there's some sharing in it. I think it's fun, because I think it feels nice if both people are taking some of the reins and having, because it's just like gift giving right. If sometimes somebody is giving you a gift and it's a gift of concept or it's a gift of like, I've thought about us or about you and I thought that you might like this gift of experience, and it doesn't have to be every week, but occasionally it's kind of nice to not have to come up with the whole plan.
Karen Covy Host
16:36
I can see that Well. And you mentioned age. Right, how important is sex in an intimate relationship, especially as we age? Because so many people in our society just assume, oh, you're over X years, whether that's 50, 60, 70, whatever the age is in their head, you just don't do it anymore, you don't need it anymore. What would, what do you think about that?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
17:03
Well, I, I mean, I see couples into their eighties and they're still having sex for sure. Um, I think that sex, okay. First of all, I define sex, sex much more broadly. I wouldn't say that it has to be penetrative sex. Um, I would say sex becomes a lot of things. It's, it's touching, it's kissing, it's. Can we say all that on this? Yeah, I'm like, are we allowed to say all those things
Karen Covy Host
You just did? So you're okay,
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
okay, yeah, it doesn't have to just be traditional penetrative, heterosexual sex, right? Sex is just the whole kit and caboodle of sex, sexuality. And because, especially post-menopausal women sometimes are having pain with penetrative sex, that skin gets thinner, lubrication becomes more difficult so, and sometimes erections become more challenging for men too. So, if we can, you know, just work with what we've got and let sensation, let pleasure, be the driver, I think it can just be so much better, because it becomes anxiety producing when things don't work like they used to. And so if we can just be looking for pleasure instead and let that be the driver, then I think sex should be on the table and can be really nice if it can be more broadly defined.
Karen Covy Host
18:28
That makes a lot of sense. I think that even just defining it that broadly has a sense of taking the pressure off Like, oh, I don't need to be able to do this one thing one way, right, if you widen your definition, life becomes infinitely easier, I would think.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
18:49
Yes, it's like we have erogenous zones all over the place and so much of so much of sex is really, honestly, not even about that one moment of like orgasm. It's about connection, I think. It's about um, it's about power, sometimes it's about play, it's about a lot of things, and so it doesn't have to just be this one thing, and a lot of times women aren't even enjoying it that much when it's about penetration Ding, ding, ding. Did you hear that? Wait what? So if we can broaden it and have it be about a lot of other touching and you know options, I think it's going to go better anyway you know options.
Karen Covy Host
19:36
I think it's going to go better anyway, you know. But yeah, I understand, as a woman, completely. But for men that's such that it's such an important part of their identity, right, and so as they age, or especially, if you mentioned, sometimes there's an injury or there's medication or there's something else involved that makes having an erection or sustaining it or whatever it makes it more difficult, they kind of lose their way. They don't you know. So what would you if, if somebody came in, if a couple came in, and you know, let's just put it on the man the man has some sort of medical condition that makes what we would call traditional sex difficult for him. How can you not just shift what he can do, but shift his identity around? This is sex too. Do you understand what I'm asking? How do you do that?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
20:30
Yeah, I mean, it's statistically higher and higher, like as they get into 50, 60, 70s, 80s, it's going to statistically get higher and higher that they are going to have difficulty, um, achieving and maintaining erections. So it's going to happen, um. So it's a conversation I have a lot of hey, it's okay, it's super normal and you can still have like sensation. So you can still have pleasure either, you know. Are you willing to have touch? Are you willing to have? Um, you can still have oral sex, you can still have touch, you can still have. You know other ways. Are you willing to have that? You know are. Are you so attached and are you um? Yeah, it's like your ego is really getting in the way here.
21:24
And uh, you know, I actually had a. I had a conversation with a guy the other day and I said okay, so you're kind of bummed out because you know your, your erections aren't what they used to be. I said would you rather have chronic lower back pain or would you rather have, you know, like the erections that you're having? And he said he thought about it for a second. He said I'd rather have the erections.
Karen Covy Host
21:52
That I'm having and I said, okay, that's what I thought.
Karen Covy Host
I love that. That's such an interesting question. I would never have thought to phrase it that way.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
22:00
Yeah, it's like, come on, everybody's got their something and you know, it's like it's still sort of working and it's it's just, it's fine, it's okay Like you're, you know.
22:13
Well, how do you get you know? So all right. So let's say you've got one person who's got these issues, like either whether it's a woman who is having more pain with intercourse because she's getting older, or a man who has erectile issues because he's getting older, right, and how do you? What happens to one person affects the couple. How do you counsel the couple to maintain a connection in spite of whatever medical issues are going on?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
22:46
Yeah, you know it's. It's interesting because if, like, one of them broke their leg or if one of them, you know, had some other medical thing, they would totally treat it normally, right. But because it has to do with genitals and it's not as visible or well, I mean, I guess an erection is visible, but it's like they, they treat it differently, I don't know it's, it's, it's this, like we don't talk about it or we don't want to acknowledge it or something. I just wish they'd be more practical about it. Um, it does affect the coupleship and yet it's not like it's not game over. They still have sensation, they still have desire. This is like the biggest sexual organ is their brain and so I really try to just normalize it Like it's okay.
23:32
And you know, with a woman too, hormones are super helpful. Lube is really necessary. You know lubrication diminishes as we age and lubrication is necessary anyway. Women lubricate in the beginning but then, as sex persists, not just age-wise but in general, lubrication is necessary. But vaginal lubrication and vaginal hormones are necessary in general as we age and so just helping kind of all that stay healthy and comfortable, like we need to be comfortable, you know.
24:10
And so just taking the taking the shame out of that, because I know there's just a lot of this information, and so helping couples advocate for themselves and communicate and have it be a fun thing and not feel like you're suffering through it or just trying to get it over as quickly as possible, because that's not, hopefully that's not the approach. And so having the communication feel open and flowing, and so it's interesting because we spend years and years together as couples and yet there isn't always a lot of good, open communication in this realm. And so if it's not comfortable, then it makes sense that there isn't a lot of desire happening. And so, yeah, it always mystifies me that people don't feel like they want to say what's actually true and yet they sort of hide the ball on this topic. And so, you know, it's no wonder that they don't feel a lot of desire, but they also don't want to hurt their partner's feelings. But then they also feel like you know.
Karen Covy Host
25:15
Yeah yeah, there's a lot tied up into this. I like how you take the approach, sort of a multi-tiered approach, because there's a lot of components to sex. There's a lot of components to desire to this whole issue. And that leads me to my next question, which may sound like a silly question, but how important is sex in a relationship? I mean, can a couple be totally sexless and totally happy?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
25:46
Yes, I've yeah, if they are both on board for that. They're not in my office probably, but you know, I've definitely seen that happen. I know people in my life that have that happening. It's fine. It's sort of like what I often ask.
26:10
One of the first questions is like what is the function of sex for you? Like why, what is your why for sex? Because if you don't have a why, then we're not going to find a, how you know. We have to understand because if, if sex is about no-transcript, I've had couples I've got right now I've got this couple that are so fun Every time they come in they are delightful, they giggle, they're like you know, they're both just so sweet to each other and they're in their like early sixties and they're just like I can't believe we get to do this and it's just there's so much fun to work with because they feel delighted to get to do this work.
27:14
That is such a contrast to most couples that are coming in at that point. And so if you are in that space, great. But if you don't want to do this, you don't have to, you know. So, yes, I think you can have a really functioning, great functioning relationship without sex. But most people want sex and I think it's a bonus, I think it's a benefit, but you don't have to have it.
Karen Covy Host
27:38
I've talked to a lot of people who their relationship has been sexless for a long time, but not by mutual agreement, right, they either stopped having sex, or one person wants it, the other one doesn't, or there's relational issues on so many other levels that sex is sort of you know they can't. Here's a question for you. I have I've talked to people who one person in the couple, let's say we'll say the guy wants sex, but the woman has such relational issues like she's so angry with him she doesn't even want to be touched by him. How do you start to deal with that kind of dynamic?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
28:39
so that they can get back to the place where you know they were having sex like rabbits when they just started, you know, as a couple. Yeah Well, so those are just the regular run of the mill, relational issues Like that's, that's LMFT stuff, right, that's the, that's the, the interpersonal stuff that she needs to unpack and say I am feeling a ton of resentment about. You know, is it? You don't carry your share of the load, or like you don't? You don't carry your share of the load, or like you don't? I don't feel respected. Or you know, is it tone the way you talk to me, is it? You know you didn't follow through.
Karen Covy Host
29:15
So it's literally just Well, where do you start working on or unpacking that kind of thing? Because from the man in that scenario, from his perspective, the problem with the relationship is she doesn't want to even be touched, she doesn't want sex, she doesn't want intimacy. From her perspective, there's relational issues that are causing all of that. So how do you start to work with the couple so each one can dig down beyond what's on the surface and seems to be the problem to down beyond what's on the surface and seems to be the problem, to get to what's really the problem.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
29:50
Yeah, you know, it's interesting that there's sort of a wheel that I see oftentimes and this is pretty common is men will say I need intimacy to enter into the relational piece, and women will say I need intimacy to enter into the relational piece, and women will say I need the relational piece to enter into intimacy, and it's like you can enter this at either point. But it's really, those are really common entry points by gender, and I don't, I don't know exactly why, but they're just very common. And so I would explain that to them as a couple and say you each, you know, have to, and so his touch needs aren't being met, but her relational needs aren't being met. And I would probably start with maybe explaining some of the relational pieces you know and having him give some acknowledgement and then maybe, if she's willing to give him a hug or some touch needs maybe not sex needs, but something you know, if each of them could give a little bit, because you know depends on the nature of sort of like, where have, where have each of them broken down?
30:58
And you know if there, if there can at least be some intellectual acknowledgement of where they've each been withholding. That's kind of a starting place. You, that's kind of where it begins, because these things tend to happen on very subtle levels and then in relationships. And then you're five years down the road and you're both really dug in and you've been moving in your silos in this relationship. It's amazing how people do this. Do you remember War of the Roses?
Karen Covy Host
31:29
Oh yeah absolutely.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
31:31
And then you're like how did we get here?
Karen Covy Host
31:33
Yeah, it's swinging from the chandelier, literally.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
31:36
Right, it's like unbelievable how people do it.
Karen Covy Host
31:41
Yeah, when a couple gets to that point maybe not swinging from the chandelier, but they've been siloed, as you put it, for years Is there hope, can they find a way to come back together? Or is there such a thing called the point of no return?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
32:03
you know, I've had a few couples call it quits in my office. That has definitely happened. You know, I cannot be more committed to the relationship than they are. Like you know, I'm not there to make sure that they stay together I cannot be, but also if they are in there, you know, and I'm also surprised sometimes that people stay together Because I'm like really, you two, like really you don't make a lot of sense to me, but there is a reason. They chose each other and I'm always a little bit shocked at, you know, kind of the pairings that happen. But they're choosing each other because there's something in that for them, that combination, they're drawn together and oftentimes people are choosing someone that fulfills something that they are lacking and that they are drawn to because they're intrigued by something that's different.
33:02
And, um, I, I definitely see that happen too, and so, even if they're at odds, there's something that is drawing them, you know, drawing them in. And yeah, I think there's history and there's a, there's an affinity. You know, I think you can always look back and see it Anyone you've dated for a long-term period of time and there's a reason that you chose them to begin with and you can still tap into that. Um, so yeah, I think there's hope if, if somebody can soften and give some acknowledgement and with, I think, with proper coaching or therapy, that you can get there. It's just can people change? And people can change if they're willing and interested in that, you know yeah.
Karen Covy Host
33:48
That makes a lot of sense. I, you know, I had a coach on once, a sex researcher and coach who, who said that his big thing was the oxytocin track and that he, you know, according to his experience, if he could get a couple to sit and just touch each other, hold hands, maybe, hug, maybe look into each other's eyes that you know, if they committed to doing that much every single day for two, three weeks, they could humanize each other. Yeah, they could change the relationship. What do you think about that?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
34:29
I tried that a few times. It's super awkward, oh my gosh, um it. It breaks down some barriers for sure, because if couples I've actually found when couples are squabbling and they just are like and they won't stop I've actually had them do that we're like literally don't talk for 60 seconds, 60 seconds, just look at each other. And while they're looking at each other, I'm doing like a little track of overlay, humanizing them. You know, this is the person who feels fear. This is the person who loves you. This is the person who wants to work things out. This is the person who you know. And they start crying, they're like so emotional while they're doing it. So it does remind them that this person is someone who matters when they can like stop their own, like defensiveness.
35:21
But so I have done that somewhat successfully. I don't do it much because clients tend to hate it. It's not really my style. It's a little more Stu Johnson. That's not really my style, so much like EFT. But yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an avenue in. It's just not my style so much yeah.
Karen Covy Host
35:47
Is it something that a couple can do, because it sounds like what you were just describing is happening in your office, in your presence. Is this something that a couple can do and make it work when it's just the two of them, or would it just add to resentment?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
36:06
Well, yeah, like I think if you are hitting an impasse where you're just going at it and you aren't making progress, then you take it to the nonverbal and you you're basically trying to tap into your like, help your nervous systems regulate is probably what he's trying to do. So, you know, that would be a long hug or that would be, you know, the holding, or that would be co-regulation through breathing. Yeah, that makes that makes sense to me, that that would be helpful. Um, yeah, I could see that, because then you're not trying to like talk you into anything. You know it's like your brains aren't going back and forth, you're just taking, your down regulating?
Karen Covy Host
36:49
Yeah, you just said something interesting co-regulating through breathing. What's that?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
36:56
Um, so well, okay, Think about, we do it with children, right, when, when a baby's crying and you pick them up and you just hold them right, You're like bouncing the baby or holding the baby, or you're co-regulating, you're helping them regulate through holding and through breath, breathing. We do it intuitively with children. You could do that with a partner too, right? If somebody is upset, you're holding them. You're breathing, You're helping them calm down. Karen Covy Host
37:27
Interesting.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
37:29
Right. So rather than talk to them and tell them to calm down and stop being so upset and you're being ridiculous, right, just hold them Right. There's something very calming to that action. That's the co-regulation. We co-regulate also through tone right, slowing our voice down, taking, um, you know, dropping our tone a little bit, slowing our words down, eye contact blinking slower, like we do it with animals, we do it with children. We can do it with our partner too, right, everything like we're animals at the end of the day, and so we do it with our partner too, The way we talk, if I talk faster and I get bigger, you're like yikes, right. So with our partner, if we slow it down, we know it sort of intuitively, but if we do it intentionally, it feels different.
Karen Covy Host
38:22
That makes so much sense. That really does. You know, before we get too far afield and have to wrap up. I also wanted to talk to you about the groups that you do. Is it called the Pleasure Circle? Tell me more about that. What's that?
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
38:38
Doing sex therapy with individuals and couples? And I was seeing just the same thing come in over and over and so, and then also I did my dissertation, so I kind of boiled down that information and I created this curriculum that's the pleasure circle. So it's a six week program and I have usually about six to eight women in that program and it is magic, it's. It's pretty cool. Each week it's 90 minutes, it's online and I've got it's live
39:16
Each week I do about 20 minutes where I give kind of a lecture, then I give some writing prompts and people are writing kind of applying the information to themselves. and then we talk about it. We all kind of have an open discussion and kind of talk it through and unpack it. So, and then I give some podcasts in between, and so it's just sort of this workshopping thing that we do, and so it really accelerates the information. It really helps women that are in this place that want to sort of skyrocket through, like, where are they? It's for women who are looking to understand their own desire, to get on board with their own sexuality and to if they're having low desire or if they've always kind of wanted to understand their sexuality or kind of reclaim their sexuality. So yeah, so I run those a few times a year. I'm also going to do a recorded version that'll be coming out this coming year.
Karen Covy Host
40:18
Wow, that is this, is this has been fascinating. It really has been, because and, like you said, I'm very, very glad that you came on and that you talked about this, because this is a topic that's kind of taboo, like it affects so many people, but very few people are willing to work with people in this arena and talk about it so openly. So I just want to thank you for coming on and sharing everything that you've shared on this podcast. It's been wonderful.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
40:50
Yeah, it's been fun.
Karen Covy Host
40:53
So do me a favor to tell our listeners or watchers whoever's watching or listening to this where they can find you if they want to learn more.
Dr. Jenn Kennedy Guest
41:02
Sure, so you can go to pleasureproject.us. That has all the information. My podcast, my blog, my pleasure circle articles, all that good stuff. You can find it there pleasureproject.us.
Karen Covy Host
41:12
Well, thank you again Dr. Jenn for being here. And for those of you who are listening if you enjoyed today's topic. If you want more you know interviews just like this do me a big favor. Give this a thumbs up, like subscribe wherever you're watching, and I look forward to seeing you again next time. Thank you.
