Episode Description - How to Deal When Divorce and Immigration Collide
What happens when a divorce doesn't just end a marriage but threatens to end a parent's right to stay in the same country as their child? In this podcast episode, Seattle-based family law attorney Lucia Levias explains what happens when divorce and immigration collide.
Immigration status, visas, and international custody issues can turn an already painful divorce into something far more complicated. Lucia shares real-life stories of families caught between countries, courts, and conflicting laws, while also showing how thoughtful planning can prevent devastating outcomes.
With a personal connection to binational families and years of experience in Collaborative Divorce, Lucia has seen firsthand how a dependent visa can become a weapon or a lifeline, depending on how a divorce is handled.
Lucia explains how a structured, team-based legal process like Collaborative Divorce can bring immigration attorneys, financial neutrals, and family coaches to the same table, creating solutions that a courtroom simply can't offer.
Lucia also dives into another fear that keeps many American-born parents up at night: What if my co-parent takes our kids abroad and doesn't come back? Discover how the Hague Convention, court orders, passport policies, and travel bonds can help parents guard against worst-case scenarios.
If you, your spouse, or both of you, are from different countries, this podcast episode is a MUST to listen to. There's a lot more nuance at the intersection of immigration and family law than most people expect, and knowing it in advance can make all the difference.
Show Notes
About Lucia
Lucia Ramirez Levias is a collaboratively trained divorce attorney and partner at DuBois Levias Law Group, a woman-owned boutique family law firm in Seattle. Her passion is helping families navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and fairness—because “I know firsthand the lifelong impact these transitions have on children and parents alike.”
As a collaborative divorce attorney, she guides couples through a structured, team-based process that keeps decisions in their hands—not the courtroom. Lucia’s goal is to de-escalate conflict, ensure financial security, and help families build agreements that support their futures. Divorce is a pivotal moment in a family’s life—but with the right guidance, it can be a positive transition.
Lucia was admitted to the Washington State Bar Association in 2006 and has practiced family law exclusively since 2008. She serves on the Board of Collaborative Professionals of Washington and YMCA or Greater Seattle, is a member of the King County Collaborative Law section, as well as the Cascadia Collaborative Practice Group.
Connect with Lucia
You can connect with Lucia on LinkedIn at Lucia Ramirez Levias and follow her on YouTube at @DuBoisLeviasDivorce. To learn more about how to work with Lucia, visit her website at DuBois Levias Divorce.
Key Takeaways from This Episode with Lucia
- Lucia Ramirez Levias is a partner at Dubois Levias Law Group in Seattle and a collaboratively trained attorney who has practiced family law exclusively since 2008.
- The complexity of international divorce increases significantly when one spouse is on a dependent visa, as a legal split can potentially lead to deportation.
- One of the most dangerous dynamics in binational divorces is the weaponization of immigration status to coerce a spouse or gain leverage in custody battles.
- Collaborative divorce offers a structured, team-based legal process where parties contractually agree to stay out of the courtroom and act in good faith.
- Couples can strategically delay final divorce filings or use legal separations to ensure a spouse completes their green card process to keep the family intact.
- The Hague Convention provides critical international protections against parental kidnapping, but parents must verify if their spouse’s home country is a signatory.
- For travel to non-signatory countries, parents should secure formal court orders with specific return dates and consider requiring travel bonds.
- In a collaborative setting, international couples can utilize "choice of law" provisions to follow U.S. property standards even if they are physically living abroad.
- U.S. courts typically lack jurisdiction over foreign land and businesses, making negotiated settlements essential for dividing overseas assets.
- This conversation highlights how proactive legal planning and empathy can turn a high-stakes international crisis into a stable transition for the whole family.
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Transcript
How to Deal When Divorce and Immigration Collide
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Lucia Levias
Karen Covy 0:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Lucia Ramirez Levias. And Lucia is a collaborative collaboratively trained divorce attorney and partner at Dubois Levias Law Group, a woman-owned boutique family law firm in Seattle. She's practiced family law exclusively since 2008. Her passion is helping families navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and fairness, because she knows firsthand the lifelong impact these transitions have on children and parents alike. As a collaborative divorce attorney, Lucia guides couples through a structured, team-based process that keeps decisions in their hands, not the courtroom. Lucia's goal is to de-escalate conflict, to ensure financial security, and help families build agreements that support their futures. Divorce is a pivotal moment in a family's life, but with the right guidance, it can be a positive transition. Lucia, welcome to the show.
Lucia Levias
Thanks for having me.
Karen Covy
Thank you for being here. And I'm curious, I'm always curious when I speak with divorced lawyers, what drew you to family law?
Lucia Levias 1:48
Interesting because I wasn't initially drawn to family law. I was interested in immigration law because I have a lot of interest in international work and kind of thought that that's what I would do. But I also have a history of working in nonprofit organizations before I went to law school, working with families and children. So, I had a particular interest in youth development work. And so, after I graduated from law school, I tried out immigration law and I actually realized it wasn't what I was expecting it to be. And someone said, hey, there's a little firm over here in Seattle that is doing family law. Maybe you should give that a try. And I thought, okay, well, that's what everyone's been telling me to try. So let me try it. And um ended up finding that it was really aligned with my background, my interests. And I just really like working with people. And family law is where you get to practice the law, but you also get to counsel. And so it was sort of a perfect mix for me.
Karen Covy 2:42
That makes so much sense. And I love the background in international or immigration law and then going to family law. And that's really one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about because there aren't a lot of lawyers out there who meld both specialties in the way that you do. And I know that there's so with so much in the news about immigration, and there are a lot of families that I've worked with that have international couples, right? So, mom is from one country, dad is from another country. Sometimes the child is the only born in America person in the family. And then the family, you know, or the parents decide to get divorced. How does how does all of that work? How does the international aspect of divorce complicate divorce? Or what are the issues that parents in that kind of situation, what do they have to think about above and beyond the divorce?
Lucia Levias 3:43
It does complicate things. And at the same time, the underlying agreements that we have to make are somewhat similar. Um, but my background is similar to a lot of the clients that I represent, where my I have one parent who's from Peru and one parent who's from the United States. And so I grew up with that blended family. And I grew up sort of knowing that um there were um there were a lot of um things between my Peruvian family and my United States family that were different from each other culturally, and then all of the visa and immigration aspects of it. And um, and so I was familiar with that kind of family. And in Seattle, it turns out that we have a lot of families also that have at least one foreign-born parent. And so what happens a lot of times is that you have um a couple who maybe came to the United States for a job, for example, in a high-tech field is kind of a sort of a stereotypical um uh case that we might have where someone comes over and they come over on a work visa and they bring their spouse with them. And that spouse is on a dependent uh visa through that spouse that is going to be the worker. Well, that's great. And they're living here and they brought their kids and they're having a you know good experience here, and then it's divorce time, which is obviously a very stressful time, but even more stressful if you have this international aspect to your family. Because if you get a divorce and one parent is on a dependent visa, that can sever that parent's ability to stay in this country. And if they can't stay in this country and there are children, then you're looking at a really scary and critical situation for the family.
Karen Covy 5:33
Yeah. So, in other words, if that if they get divorced, then the dependent parent and the kids move. They have to go back to their home country. Is that correct?
Lucia Levias 5:45
Not necessarily the children, because the children can still be dependent on the worker spouse, but the dependent spouse would be at the time of divorce potentially deportable. And so they may have to leave and leave children and their ex-spouse here, which of course would be devastating for the family. Um, and so we've had we have to work closely, and I don't practice, even though I practiced immigration law for a little while, I'm not an immigration attorney. So we have to work closely with immigration counsel and family law council to see what we can do to protect the family to stay intact physically so that we don't have family spread across two countries with children potentially you know, being with the left, you know, the parent who's here, you know, or only being able to be in the country with the parent who left. So it gets complicated.
Karen Covy 6:41
So, what happens in that instance? Because I can then just see that the stakes really got high, right? So because the two parents, they've decided their marriage isn't working and they both want to separate, but they both want the kids, right? And so have you seen the situation where one parent is trying to like they're both fighting over the kids because it's not just about the kids, it's about which country the kids are going to be in.
Lucia Levias 7:14
Right. Yeah, I've seen it work out in situations where unfortunately that immigration status is weaponized and that can be very cruel and very difficult. And I've also seen it, and where I'm turning more towards, is seeing it being handled collaboratively so that we are doing everything that we can to make sure the family doesn't get separated in a way that they don't want to. Um, so one of the cases, I'll give you an example, and obviously this isn't changing the names in some of the situations and that kind of thing, but um, but I had a case where um my um I had a client who had was here on a student visa um and her husband was American, and it was um, she had finished, she had graduated, and they'd gotten married and had a little baby. And the um husband, um, for whatever reason, I think because he was sort of thinking that he wanted to divorce her, didn't sponsor her to stay in the United States to get a green card, even though he could have as a spouse. I think in his mind he may have been thinking, well, you know, I want to divorce her, so why would I sponsor her to stay here? So, he filed for divorce and she had no legal status without him. And she had graduated, so she had her student visa was also ending. Um, and here she had a baby, and we're talking about a breastfeeding baby, an infant. And so um what happened was is she became deportable. And of course, he said, Well, you can leave the baby here because you're deportable and you'll go back. Well, the judge said, No. Judge said, I don't think so. Um, that's not gonna happen. You could have sponsored your wife to be here and you didn't. And I don't know why you didn't. I don't know if this was a strategy or you were weaponizing this vulnerability of hers. But if she goes, the baby goes. And that's what happened. She and the baby left. And it was not a good outcome. I mean, she would have much preferred to be here and have the family together, even if they were divorced close by. But the situation wasn't possible. And she, because she had become deportable, and that judge was not going to separate that baby from the mom. So baby, who was US born, went back to the country of the of the mother's origin. And the father ended up with a, you know, three, whatever, however many miles, 10,000 mile relationship um with that baby, which is not a good outcome for any family, um, as far as I'm concerned. But that really backfired.
Karen Covy 9:59
Yeah, it sounds like it really did. But I'm curious, after, you know, by that point when he had filed for divorce, was it then too late for him to sponsor her? Or could he have said, okay, I'll sponsor her?
Lucia Levias 10:14
You know, I don't recall the ins and outs on the immigration side of it. Um, and there may not have been a willingness to sponsor, still thinking that this scheme was going to work. Um and um, but yeah, he didn't. For whatever reason, either he couldn't or he wouldn't.
Karen Covy 10:36
Because what I was curious is because I know enough about immigration law just to be dangerous, Um, and I know that there are some pretty strict time limits for different things. And so, you know, what I guess the bigger question is are there situations where the person, you know, the one parent has just blown the timeline and there's nothing you can do.
Lucia Levias 10:59
Yeah. And that could have been the case. And again, because the immigration experts, we always work with one, would know. But I think in this case, there may have been a solution that the husband wasn't interested in. Um, so that happens. And again, that was sort of this where I've seen it really weaponized because a person who is without status or has dependent status is very vulnerable. And um, and unfortunately, that, and if there's a dynamic in the relationship that, you know, there may be coercion or other kinds of dynamic domestic violence, even sometimes their status becomes even more vulnerable in situations like that, and a parent trying to separate them from a child, um, which is, like I said, in that case, backfired. And I think a lot of judges would keep a mother with a child in those kinds of circumstances.
Karen Covy 11:52
Yeah, that that makes all the sense in the world. But let's talk about um a little bit friendlier case or something where you've mentioned collaborative divorce. And a lot of you and I both know what that is, yeah. But for the benefit of the listener who might not have known what it heard of it before or know exactly what it is, can you explain what collaborative divorce is and how it's particularly effective in an immigration or a binational foreign-born situation?
Lucia Levias 12:27
Yeah. So collaborative divorce is an actual process. And in Washington, there's a statute that regulates how you do a collaborative divorce. So, it's not the same as the adjective, we're just gonna be collaborative. It's different than that. We call it collaborative with a capital C, meaning it's a legal process. And in that process, the parties agree that they will not go to court. And they don't just agree verbally, they actually sign a contract called a participation agreement that says, we are going to act in good faith, we're gonna disclose everything, we're gonna be completely transparent. We're even gonna let our lawyers talk to each other right in front of us and even privately. We're gonna be very open and we're gonna sign this that says we will not go to court. So, it's really intentional. Um, and so the law, so both parties have a collaboratively trained attorney. They must be collaboratively trained. And um, and then the parties can also bring in specialists onto the team. So sometimes there's a, there's often a financial neutral who isn't taking sides, they're just looking at the finances and trying to present some options for the clients for how to sign or how to agree to their financial um division of assets. And then there's often a coach, which is somebody who has a MSW and particularly helps with parenting plans and custody issues. So, we form a team and we work together over a period of three to four months to meet right. We meet regularly every three or four weeks to put together a comprehensive settlement. And it is a really great way to do cases that are complex because you have a lot of people at the table that are able to bring their expertise to it, um, but you want to stay out of court. So, it's much less expensive for that reason because complex cases that are high conflict are the most expensive. But complex cases that can be done in a collaborative divorce setting saves the parties a lot of money.
Karen Covy 14:29
You know, it sounds like from what you're talking about, that one of those experts or specialists that you can bring in in a collaborative situation where you've got, you know, at least one parent who's foreign-born, if not both, is that immigration lawyer who can then would it be possible for the immigration lawyer to be acting as a neutral or as a lawyer to the couple on how they can maximize how their immigration status or how they can use the law to keep their family intact, even if they do get a divorce?
Lucia Levias 15:04
Yeah, and they would be considered a consulting, you know, they could be a consulting expert or could be their immigration attorney, because sometimes when um when people are here on a work visa, the company will provide them with a lawyer. And so that lawyer could, as long as you know they have the similar interests, um, could advise both of them. So for example, um there are um times when we've had couples who um are in the process of applying for a uh green card who wanna, they both they both want to stay because the children are here, they've been in schools, they're they've got friends, they've got lots of activities, and they do not want to prematurely have the children or a spouse go back to their home country. And so they will work with an immigration attorney to help them come up with a plan for how they can separate, but not necessarily divorce. So, they could potentially legally separate, or they could have a property settlement agreement, a contract that has all the terms of the divorce, but not necessarily take that final step in a divorce until the green card process is done. And I've seen couples be extremely generous with that because they really don't want to harm their family because of this immigration status. And it's not the kids' fault that the parents are getting a divorce and they want to protect them and their community and their friends. Um we'll work with immigration attorneys to give them the best advice to make sure that it doesn't interrupt their green card process while they're separating from each other.
Karen Covy 16:52
So, in that situation, when they're in the process of getting a green card, and I ask because I've worked with clients who are in exactly this situation, right? somebody's in the process of getting a green card, or both of them are. Is it at that point wiser to wait before you file anything In court in terms of a divorce. Wait until they get the green card and then file Or is it ok to file anyway?
Lucia Levias 17:56
From what I understand from the immigration attorneys is that it’s OK to file the petition, meaning hey we’d like a divorce but to hold off on the finalization. That’s the distinction. My understanding, And again I’m not an immigration attorney but whether or not the marriage itself was bona fide, and they are in these situations. Whether or not we really had a bona fide marriage, We we’re in love we had children and all of those things are true, Is really the test. It’s not sort of where they are at in their relationship right now. That’s my understanding from the immigration attorneys. So they're not as concerned typically with the filing the petition. They're more concerned about the filing of the final divorce papers. But I would say, you know, I'm sure they would caution and say, you know, maybe not file anything just out of, you know, sort of um abundance of caution. Um but sometimes these things don't get realized until somebody's already filed a petition for divorce. And then it's like, oh shoot, what do we do now?
Karen Covy 18:21
Right. Well, that's one of the things that I personally like about the collaborative process is that you can be working on your divorce and working towards negotiating a settlement and a parenting agreement and the whole thing before anybody files anything, right? So, a lot goes on behind the scenes, which to me would be a huge advantage of the collaborative divorce process in this kind of a setting.
Lucia Levias 18:48
Yeah, it really is, because in the collaborative divorce process, even if there isn't an international or immigration component, we often don't file because we may want to refinance a house, for example. And once you've filed for divorce, the bank starts to look at you as adversarial parties and they may not be as likely to refinance a house and other things. We often wait to do anything that is related to the formal legal process until we have our agreements in place. Um, the other thing that I've seen in collaborative international cases is choice of law. Um, I've had international cases that um the parties are foreign nationals in another country. Maybe they are, for example, in Germany and they just happen to be over there through the State Department or something, you know, just working over there, or maybe they got a job at a private company or something like that over there. And that's not where they really feel connected culturally. That's sort of their job over there. And they would like to get a divorce, and the divorce has to happen over there because that's where they are and that's where their children are. But they would like to work collaboratively on an agreement that is more aligned with the US, you know, in Washington state in particular, laws around divorce, because that feels fairer to them. And in a collaborators, collaborative setting, we can do that. We can work on their agreements based on the choice of law that they want and work with the, in this case, a German attorney to make sure that it would still be signed off and adopted there as a final order.
Karen Covy 20:25
So, they're still getting divorced in Germany. However, they're doing it based on US law, in this case, Washington law.
Lucia Levias 20:33
Yeah, because things like spousal maintenance can be really different. Um, you know, the treatment of the treatment of assets, the concept of community property versus separate property, they may have entered into the marriage with those kinds of ideas of sort of what they think of fairness is in a divorce. And they might be in a country that has really different laws than that. Um, and they and they say to themselves, well, let's just uh let's do it how it would have been done in the United States. And you can do that in a collaborative um setting, which is really nice.
Karen Covy 21:08
That makes a lot of sense. Let's veer off a little bit from the immigration aspect of this, though, and just say uh a couple that there's one couple is one person is foreign-born, the other one's American-born. What I see a lot is concern over the kids because the person whose foreign-born wants to be able to take the children to go see grandma and grandpa in their home country. And the person who's not from that home country is terrified that if they let the kids go, they'll never see them again, right? Or that something bad will happen and they'll have no way to get to their children. So, in that kind of a situation, what do you do?
Lucia Levias 21:52
Yeah. Well, there are some international treaties between countries regarding parental kidnapping. So, in particular, the Hague Convention. On parental kidnapping does protect parents who are in this situation, for example, where you know the children live in the United States and a foreign-born parent wants to take the children to their home country. So long as that home country is a signatory of that treaty, it would be hard for them to just disappear and kidnap the children because there would be cooperation between the two countries to bring those children back to their home country. So, we there's so there are protections. That's one thing that's important for people to know. But you do want to check to make sure that that country is listed, and the majority of countries are, but there are definitely countries that are not, is listed as one of the signatories to the Hague Convention on International Kidnapping. So that's the first sort of like, okay, it's a country that's you know, I have some protections under. Um, the second thing is I always strongly urge people to have a court order where the children are currently reside to grant permission for that travel with return dates as well. So that we agree the children are going to be in ex-country from September 1st or September 30th. So, there's a return date. So, if you do need to enforce this return of the children, you have a you have a court order already that's ready to be enforced.
Karen Covy 23:21
So you're talking about more than just an agreement between the parents or a text message. You're talking about actually formalizing the travel dates and going to court and saying, you know, judge, will you sign off on this order? The kids are going to go from X date to to Y date.
Lucia Levias 23:37
Yes. And especially if you have a parent who's afraid, as you kind of suggested in your example, that what if they don't come back? Um, so then that would give them that protection as well. So, you've got a treaty and then you've got a specific court order from this judge that says that. So, I would uh, and you know, and sometimes even airlines require travel authorization for children from both parents. So sometimes those documents can actually be helpful as well. But I would I would urge an actual court order. Where it becomes a lot more complicated is when the travel is to a country that is not a signatory of the Hague Convention. And um, that's when there is a risk, because if the children are taken to that country even by agreement and they aren't they do not return, there's not a clear avenue for the United States to get involved in returning the children. Then you're in a situation where you would have to go and try to fight that in that country that doesn't have that protection. And um, and then that's gonna be up to the jurisdiction of that country without sort of the oversight of the treaty, you know, making sure it's gonna happen. And that gets really complicated. So sometimes we just have to, if there's a if there is a concern that there's there a child's not going to be returned, then sometimes we just have to say, we're gonna wait until this divorce is over, until we allow travel. Um and judges, if they are concerned about the parent being what we call a flight risk, they will sometimes require that the children stay here until the divorce is finalized. So, there's no travel pending finalization.
Karen Covy 25:21
But what happens in the case where the children are very young, like two, three years old, and the divorce is over, but the parent is still concerned that if dad or mom, whoever is the foreign-born parent, takes this child out of the country, they'll never see them again. Now what?
Lucia Levias 25:39
Yeah, well, hopefully you've addressed it in your final parenting plan or custody order in some manner. Um, it could it could include bonds, for example, so that you can travel to this country, but you're gonna have to pay a bond. And if those, and if you don't come back, that bond will be in effect against you. So there's so there's things that you can do in your final divorce orders to protect against kidnapping if there is, if there's no Hague convention that are just agreements between the two of you. But yeah, if you don't have those agreements, your divorce is over and somebody decides to flee with the children. Um, if it's to a country that's a signatory of the Hague convention, then you can file a Hague petition in the country where the children are located and ask them to be returned. And if there's not, then you have to go to that country and just work within their jurisdiction.
Karen Covy 26:34
That sounds like a nightmare.
Lucia Levias 26:36
Yes. Yes. And um, I know our courts, you know, there have been some cases where, and I don't want to scare people because they're few and far between, but there have been some cases where children are sort of lost to a parent. Um, and they've gone to a country that's not a signatory, and it's been very, and you've probably seen some of these even in the news, you know, it's sort of like high-profile cases and they're and in parents, you know, trying to find children that have been taken. It's not the norm, but it's always good to hire an attorney that has these uh experience around international family law cases so they can at least issue spot and give some ideas of like, here's some protections you can put in your order when you get divorced, and here's some things that we can ask the judge to put in there just to protect against these unlikely, hopefully, outcomes.
Karen Covy 27:31
You know, just thinking like a lawyer in this situation, though, if the parent who's foreign-born takes the children, that foreign-born parent also couldn't come back to the United States because if they came without the children, bad things are going to happen to them, right?
Lucia Levias 27:49
Yeah, yeah. So I have had cases where their children were removed with a to a non-Hague country. Um, and the parent in the United States contacted the FBI and there's opened a case against this um parent who had unlawfully removed the children to a country that wasn't a Hague country. So, they have a um suit against the parent, and it's I think, and I'd this is where you got to bring in a criminal attorney now. So, we gotta like all work together here. But the kid brought in a criminal attorney and you know it was sort of helping me um understand what the you know, what the consequences are for this parent that's removed the children. So it's about I think it's like a 10-year sentence in prison for doing this. Um, so the minute that parent comes back, if they do come back onto US land, the minute they land, they're going to be likely arrested and they're likely going to be convicted. Um, but the problem is how do you get to them when they're in that other country? Because you're in the jurisdiction of a country that is not a signatory that may not cooperate. They don't really, maybe they don't care that the FBI is showing up, you know, with warrants unless you get that parent, unless you get that parent to come to the embassy or something like that, where you're kind of on US land, so to speak. There may be some greater power around extradition and that kind of thing. But anyway, it gets very complicated. Um, and yeah, we would bring we bring in criminal attorneys at that point, you know, who will, you know, help with sort of federal prosecution of kidnapping to countries that aren't, but it's hard. It's hard. It's not a situation that um, you know, any parent wants to be in. Um in that particular situation, a deal was reached and the children were returned. Um, the parent who was over in this non-Hague signatory country got scared enough by the the likelihood that if they ever came back to the United States, they'd be facing a 10-year prison term. Um, was scared enough by that that they wanted to negotiate something and were able to negotiate something so the children could be returned without the criminal consequence.
Karen Covy 30:06
So we it was a it was complicated. Wow. that that sounds like a nightmare for everybody. And meanwhile, how traumatized are the children?
Lucia Levias 30:22
Right. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then on the other hand, just to make things even more interesting and complicated, there are sometimes legitimate reasons why a parent has to flee with their children. And most of the time that's because of domestic, severe domestic abuse and physical harm that's being done to the children and the parent. So, there are times when if that can be proved, which it's hard to prove, but if there are injuries and there's hospital visits and there are marks and bruises and broken bones, and somebody flees, then they're not likely to be prosecuted because they are a victim of domestic violence and they may be doing that for their own safety. Um, so both under the Hague Convention, there that is a um a defense to removing your children. Um, and it can also be criminally a defense to removing your children. Um but those are very hard to prove. I want to point out it's not just sort of a if it's a he said, she said, it's gonna be next to impossible to prove. But if there are medical records, then you're then you're in a in a better position to be able to prove that, but it still can be an uphill battle. So, if you are in a situation like that and you feel that you need to flee, strongly suggest that you talk to an attorney before you do it. It's much easier to ask permission before you leave than to ask for forgiveness after you've left. So, I'd say that's sort of my parting advice on that one.
Karen Covy 32:00
Wow. Well, let's say you've got a couple and they really they want to work this out, and so they're in a collaborative divorce. What kinds of protections or extra provisions should they be having in their marital settlement agreement around the children or their parenting agreement around the children that maybe an average American couple with two American-born parents wouldn't have to think about?
Lucia Levias 32:27
Yeah, so there are, first of all, provisions that you want to always make sure are in there about passports. Um, for example, are the children gonna have just US passports if they're US-born children? Are the parents gonna allow the children to have foreign passports? And so that's a decision that needs to be made and needs to be taken into consideration with, you know, immigration attorney to figure out how that could impact them. So, we're gonna have a lot of language around passports and also even the renewal of passports and, you know, or getting a new passport and who's gonna be in charge of that, who's gonna be authorized to do that, and that kind of thing. There's also gonna be a lot of provisions around what's allowable travel and to what countries. Um, and so we will often say something like that we the children can only travel to countries that are signatories of the Hague Convention. And sometimes we can even put in our parenting plans and custody orders around um what level of um under the State Department of uh danger that country is. So, the State Department has different levels, you know, I think it's one through five. I don't have the website open right now, but you can look at any country and they'll tell you what sort of level danger um to Americans that country has. And so some people will say, you know, any country that's a three or higher, we're not gonna, we're gonna agree right now the children aren't gonna go to because they might be from a country where there's been some um wars, disputes, and that kind of thing. So, we'll look at, you know, putting those kinds of provisions in there as well. Um, we already mentioned the possibility of a bond. So, before you leave, you need to post a bond, and that bond is collectible if you don't return the children, because I'm gonna now need that money to go fight this case over in the country that, you know, um that you've taken the children to. So those are all the kinds of things that, you know, we can put in and as creative as we can be more.
Karen Covy 34:26
What do you think about having certain age restrictions for children to travel? Like it's one thing for a two-year-old to be going with mom or dad to some foreign country. It's a very different situation if the child is 16, right? Because they have resources of their own. They've got a cell phone, they can call, they can, you know, all the things. So, is that a reasonable thing to be thinking about that the kids can't travel until they're X years old to a foreign country?
Lucia Levias 34:56
You know, I think it it's definitely a reasonable thing to think about. And what I've seen with the younger children is that the parents agree that the other parent can go. So, they will say it's a little, it's a child, it's a small child. And sometimes it's just because I don't want to be away from my two-year-old for a month. That's a really long time. So I'm allowed to go, is what the custody order says. The other parents allowed to go if they would like to, and that they allowed are allowed to be in the vicinity and they're even allowed to have a couple visits while they're over there. So, they might see them, you know, every Saturday or something like that while they're over there. And some parents like that because they kind of have eyes on the child, and just because developmentally, it's hard for a child to be away from a parent for that long.
Karen Covy 35:38
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. Are there anything else, you know, any other provisions regarding children that jump out at you that parents, just issues they parents should be thinking about if there's one foreign-born parent with kids?
Lucia Levias 35:55
I think your citizenship and your children's citizenship is really important to think about even before you really marry somebody who is from another country. That should be part of the conversation before you get married. Just like hopefully you're talking about how do we want to handle finances and do we want to have children and who's better at, you know, taking out the garbage and who's better at doing dishes, whatever the conversations are, one of the conversations should be what are we going to do about making sure that we both ideally have the same passport as our children? Because nothing is scarier than having a different passport than your child, meaning your child is a citizen of country X and you're a citizen of country Y. And what if there's a divorce and you can't even go to the country where your child is a citizen? So, I think every family who is starting out in an international marriage should really be working on their immigration status even ahead of the marriage or a plan for once they get married to make sure that we all have passports so we don't ever get separated. Because I think that that's a really terrifying idea that you could be separated from your child just because you can't get into the country where they are, because maybe you can't get a visa into that country. For example, the United States is a hard country to get into. Most people have to get a visa to come here. So, if you don't have a US passport and you don't have any status here, um you may not be able to come. And this is where your child is. It may be very difficult to come. So, I think that's one of the things that I wish couples did more because most of the ones that end up, you know, in my cases that are really complicated, they have two different, they have different passports than their children. And now we're looking at barriers that are really outside of sometimes even the parents' control to keep this family intact.
Karen Covy 37:50
Wow. So much to think about. And I know we've covered a lot of ground, but I just want to ask a couple of more questions to change gears, not just from children, but also to property, because I've been involved in cases where one, the foreign-born parent has property in that foreign country or some other country that they've traveled to. And, you know, the US-born parent, you know, says, oh, that that property is worth blah, blah, blah. The other person says, no, it's not, or the US parent doesn't even, or US spouse doesn't even know there's other property somewhere else. How does that play out in divorce and what can collaborative divorce bring to that kind of problem?
Lucia Levias 38:35
Yeah. So generally speaking, and I would say that I'm more of an expert in the, or not expert, but I have more experience, because I don't think as lawyers we're supposed to say expert, but so more experience doing in international custody than I do in international finances, because that is another kind of specialty and especially around business and that kind of thing. But generally speaking, if you're getting a divorce in my state, for example, the state of Washington, this court doesn't have jurisdiction over land, homes, and businesses in other countries. So, in order for it to be included in a divorce order, if you, for example, have a house in another country that you want to be considered, it has to be agreed upon and that you're gonna, you know, include that and who's going to get it and what the value of that is. So, I have seen people do, you know, appraisals in another country. And as long as they both agree that, you know, we agree that this is a accredited appraisal company and we're gonna agree to this value, um, then they can bring that into their collaborative divorce agreement to say, you know, we're going to give award this property to this person. But the court doesn't have any jurisdiction to, you know, a house that's maybe in the husband's name in another country, transfer it into a wife the wife's name or anything like that. So um it's much better to do those collaboratively because you can reach those agreements on the value and the award without having to go to that country and deal specifically with that piece of property there under those laws.
Karen Covy 40:14
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Lucia, thank you so much for sharing all of this. This has been a real eye-opening episode, especially for anybody who has one spouse that's foreign-born. I think this is going to be invaluable to them. So, thank you so much.
Lucia Levias
It’s great to be here. Thank you.
Karen Covy
And for those of you out there who are watching and listening, if you've enjoyed today's conversation, if you'd like to hear more conversations just like this, do me a big favor. Like the episode, give it a thumbs up, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel. And if you want to find Lucia, Lucia, where they where should um people look for you? Where can they find you?
Lucia Levias 40:54
Well, my name is unusual enough that Lucia Levias Google search will get you to me, but our website is www.duboislaw.net.
Karen Covy 41:06
Awesome. And we will link to everything in the show notes. So, thank you so much. And for everyone out there, I look forward to talking with you again next time.
