Episode Description - The Truth About Coercive Control in Divorce
If you've ever felt like you were losing your mind in your relationship - questioning your own memory, shrinking your social circle, or blaming yourself for your partner's moods - there's a name for that. It’s called coercive control.
In this podcast episode, Jolee Vacchi, family law attorney and founder of Foundations Family Law and Mediation Center in Worcester, Massachusetts, explains how coercive control (including manipulation, gaslighting, and emotional intimidation) slowly chips away at a person’s confidence, relationships, and sense of autonomy without ever leaving visible bruises. She breaks down the subtle behaviors that often get dismissed as “normal relationship problems” and explains why so many people stay stuck far longer than they ever imagined.
Jolee also tackles one of the most counterintuitive questions in high-conflict divorce: is going to court actually the right move when your spouse thrives on control? (Her answer might surprise you.)
Jolee also discloses specific strategies that can shift the power dynamic when you're up against someone who knows exactly how to weaponize the legal system.
From parenting coordinators to protective orders to keeping yourself sane while living under the same roof during divorce proceedings, this conversation is packed with practical, eye-opening guidance. Whether you're in the thick of your divorce or just starting to ask hard questions, this episode will help you understand what you're dealing with, and what your options actually are.
Show Notes
About Jolee
Jolee Vacchi is known as "The Compassionate Divorce Attorney." She is the Founding Attorney of Foundations Family Law & Mediation Center located in Worcester, Massachusetts. As a mediator, Collaboratively-trained attorney, and Coercive Control Trauma-Informed Attorney, Jolee focuses her practice on out-of-court solutions for her clients to resolve their family law conflicts as painlessly and peacefully as possible.
Connect with Jolee
You can connect with Jolee on LinkedIn at Jolee E. Vacchi, Esq and on Facebook at Foundations Family Law. You can follow Jolee on YouTube at @FoundationsFamilyLaw, on Instagram at Foundations Family Law and on her podcast at Divorce Detox. To learn more about working with Jolee, visit her website at Foundations Family Law.
Key Takeaways from This Episode with Jolee Vacchi
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Transcript
The Truth About Coercive Control in Divorce
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Jolee Vacchi
Karen Covy 0:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Jolee Vacchi. Jolee is known as the Compassionate Divorce Attorney. She's the founding attorney of Foundation's Family Law and Mediation Center, located in Worcester, Massachusetts. As a mediator, collaboratively trained attorney, and coercive control trauma-informed attorney, Jolee focuses her practice on out-of-court solutions for her clients to resolve their family law conflicts as painlessly and peacefully as possible. She is uh a kindred spirit and after my own heart. So, Jolee, welcome to the show.
Jolee Vacchi 1:18
Thank you, Karen. I'm delighted to be here with you today.
Karen Covy 1:21
I'm thrilled to have you, and I'd like to start with your story. You know, family law is a tough area of law to practice. What drew you to this area? Start wherever you want to start.
Jolee Vacchi 1:32
Sure. So as a little girl, I somehow got drawn to Law and Order and Allie McBeal. I don't know if you remember those shows back in the day. That is what I wanted to be when I grew up. I didn't know any attorneys in real life. Um, nobody in my family was a lawyer, but I set my heart on that in middle school. And when I was in high school, I ended up interning for a divorce attorney. And she became my role model and who I wanted to be when I was an adult. So, I went right to college and to law school. Um, and I majored in everything that I could to do with family law. So, I took family law, domestic violence law. I became a certified mediator in law school. I just I had that desire within me. Um, family is something that's very, you know, important to me. It's the foundation of my whole world. And I saw the law as a helping profession, and that's how I wanted to use my legal degree. And now everything kind of has come full circle because that role model, that um, you know, attorney I in for interned for back in high school is now a judge and I practice in front of her. So, it's been a really cool experience the whole journey.
Karen Covy 2:47
Wow, that that's quite a story. And there really aren't that many attorneys that I know who are in family law who truly wanted to do it like right out of the gate. A lot people come from a lot of different directions, but the fact that you knew this was your calling from a young age is amazing.
Jolee Vacchi 3:05
And I wish I could put like, you know, I could pinpoint something, but it just is something innately in me, and I'm okay with that.
Karen Covy 3:13
We can go with that. Well, you know, more than just being a family law attorney, though, the reason I wanted to talk with you is because you've taken this even deeper, right? You are a coercive control trauma-informed attorney. What is that?
Jolee Vacchi 3:31
Yeah, so it's a mouthful. I realize that. Um, so I'm the majority of my clients are women, and that's who I really love to represent. I resonate and I get along really well with representing women. It doesn't surprise me. I'm obviously a woman myself. I'm a mom. I have two young children. They're 12 and 10 years old. And a lot of my clients are young mothers who are coming to me. And, you know, it's so interesting because people have a lot of misconceptions about divorce, as you probably realize. You know, people think that, you know, like a big affair or something happens and blows up a marriage all of a sudden. But a lot of times when women come to meet with me, they've been thinking about divorce for years. Like this is a usually a slow burn, and it's not something that just they magically woke up one day and thought, hey, I want to leave my marriage. Like, no, they've been thinking about this and like, you know, the name of your podcast, they've been on and off the fence about this for a while. And so they come to me, and a lot of times they're kind of asking for like permission to get divorced. You know, they want to tell me about all the horrible things that their husband has done. And I find myself often telling them, like, listen, you don't need to convince me or ask for my permission to get divorced. Like, if you want out of your marriage, like, I'll help you. I'm here for you. The court will let you get divorced, right? Um, and a lot of the behavior that I've seen, especially over the past few years, and you know, I don't like to use this term anymore because it's been kind of um, I don't know, it's been kind of taken over, I think, by social media. It's narcissistic behavior, right? The N-word, the dirty N-word now. That's how it used to be described, and now we're using the terminology coercive control. Um so yeah, so narcissistic behavior is, you know, a complete lack of empathy from one partner. Um, it's you know, classic signs of it are gaslighting, um, you know, denying the reality of somebody, you know, you'll say, um, you know, oh, look at how beautiful the blue sky is, and they'll say, What are you talking about? It's green. Like they're just denying your perception of reality. Or, you know, you'll recount um an event that happened and they'll just um say that's not the way it happened. And it kind of makes you feel like you're going crazy because you know the how an event or how a certain conversation went, but they're just they are they're being manipulative to make you deny your own reality. And so I just have just started noticing this behavior of the clients that were coming to me over time. Um, and I wanted to learn more about it. I'm a lifelong learner, you know, like I just like I realized patterns and I'm like, I just want to learn more about it. And so I discovered this program about coercive control and it was trauma-informed. And I was like, yes, tell me all about this. And so I got certified in the program. Um, and I'm so glad that I did because where I practice in Massachusetts, we recently passed um a new law that um codifies coercive control as a form of domestic abuse, and now um parties are eligible to apply for restraining orders on the basis of coercive control, which does not require physical violence, which is something brand new.
Karen Covy 7:02
Wow, that's really interesting. So, can you describe for everyone what coercive control means in terms of your statute? I know it's just Massachusetts, it doesn't apply to the rest of the country, but what does Massachusetts define as coercive control? Because even somebody coming in for a protective order, they've got to meet the terms of the statute, right? They've got to show that whatever the statute requires has happened in their instance. So, what is coercive control?
Jolee Vacchi 7:33
Typically, you have to show a pattern, and there's no definition of what this pattern is, but you usually have to show at least three distinct um incidents. And this um is referencing to kind of our harassment prevention um orders, which is also requires a pattern, which is three incidents as well. And so you have to show coercive control requires you to show that you have a lack of autonomy. So there's two parts to coercive control. There's the coercion part, so this is manipulation and coercion, and then there's the control dynamics. So those are the two components of coercion, coercive control. So this can, and it results in the survivor, the victim, um, losing a sense of their autonomy. So they're not able to just be who they are, they can't just say what they want to say, they can't do what they want to do. They're they they have their freedom of expression is restricted in a way by their partner. Um, so this can look like isolation. So a lot of times they're isolated from their family, their friends, co-workers. And it doesn't have to be, you know, they're being locked in the house, like physically. It can be more like, you know, they make plans and their partner gives them the silent treatment for a week afterwards because they're upset that they went out, or they give them a guilt trip. So that's where the coercion comes in. So then the survivor doesn't make plans anyway anymore after that because they don't want to have to deal with that, you know, those negative consequences from their partner again. Um, so if they slowly their circle gets smaller and smaller because they're not going out with friends, they're not talking to family, they're not talking to coworkers.
Karen Covy 9:24
So, what that makes me think, sorry, the lawyer brain is coming out. How in heaven's name do you prove something like that? Because the victim is gonna say exactly what you just said, that I've stopped making plans because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There, you know, it's always a it's always an issue, right? So I didn't want to have to deal with it. And the other and the spouse is gonna say, What are you talking about? You can go wherever you want, you can go wherever you want. You can do whatever you want. I'm not stopping you. So you're in this he said, she said, which is so characteristic of so much of divorce. How do how do you prove what's really going on?
Jolee Vacchi 10:04
Yeah, a lot of it is text messages, to be honest with you. Yeah. So, you know, I made plans with Betty and Tammy on Friday night. Oh, do you really have to? Oh, I'm gonna have to put the kids to bed. Oh, you know, so something along those lines. So if you can have something in writing, that is, you know, helpful. Um, any threats to children or to animals, you know, so manipulating and coercive behavior to control a partner through those means. So it doesn't actually require any physical harm to like the children or the pets. That's a big one. Um, yeah.
Karen Covy
Does it require a threat of physical harm?
Jolee Vacchi
Or like an implied, an implied one. Something might happen if you were to do. So it's much more subtle than you know, an overt threat of serious imminent bodily harm, then that is what is usually required before our coercive control law came into effect.
Karen Covy 11:04
You know, I can see though, that if somebody's been the victim of that, especially over a prolonged period of time, and like you said, your clients come to you and they have been thinking about this for a very long time, um, which is kind of the way this goes, right? Um how do they get the courage to step forward and allege coercive control and try to prove it in court? Because if they're not successful, if they don't get a protective order, they're going back home and living with this person, and at that point their life can become even worse. So, how what do they have to do to number one, get the courage, and number two, put protections in place so that they're safe?
Jolee Vacchi 11:51
Yeah. So, I would, if any person who is considering applying for a restraining under the new course of control law, I would I would highly suggest that they consult with an attorney first because they have to, you know, write an affidavit that they sign under the pains and penalties of perjury. And usually if they're going for an ex parte order, they're asking for the restraining order to be issued on an emergency basis when the other side isn't there, the judge is going to look and base their ruling off of that affidavit. And so you want to have it written in a way that is putting forth your most compelling arguments. So you want dates, you want very uh, you know, specific details. And a lay person doesn't know all of those nuances. And so to have the affidavit drafted by an attorney, that will give you the best chance of success of getting one of these kinds of restraining orders because these are still fairly new in Massachusetts. This is only about 18 months old. So, you know, we don't we still don't have a ton of, you know, there hasn't been appeals on these restraining orders yet. The judges are still kind of figuring out how to rule on these as we go. So, how do they get the courage? I mean, I hope that they have support and that they've connected with resources or, you know, peer support groups. They've connected with an attorney, they've just reached their breaking point. I mean, I have women who tell me that they just they either go to bed or wake up in the morning and they just can't like picture themselves waking up like that for, you know, another day, not let alone five or ten more years. It's just something in them finally cracks open. And it's also a lot of it, I think, too, is motivated by what they're modeling for their children and for what a healthy relationship is versus not. Um, so I think that is also a motivating factor for them as well.
Karen Covy 13:50
Well, what else characterizes a divorce or relationship that has coercive control? Let's say somebody isn't going to go the protective order route, um, and they're just, but they've got a situation where they feel like they're being coerced. What are the characteristics of this type of relationship? And what can someone do to get through a divorce when this is a factor?
Jolee Vacchi 14:20
Yeah. So, a lot of people describe coercively controlling relationships as walking on eggshells with their partner. That is such uh that's a phrase I hear all of the time because people who have these characteristics, they're they can be so charming and so loving. And that's why these relationships can be so tough to leave because you have those happy memories. And it creates these trauma bonds that I've learned about. And that's why it's so hard to leave because you latch on to those happy moments. But then without warning and without any kind of rational explanation, there will be a coldness or anger, or there will just be all this strife and conflict that you can't explain. Um, and so a lot of times survivors will blame it on themselves for something they did or didn't do or said or didn't say. And so there's a lot of self-blame for, you know, um, for causing their partner to have just these wild mood swings that can't be explained. Um, and there's a lot of demeaning behavior for survivors. So, their partners will constantly put them down, the way they look, the way they dress, the way they act, the way they parent. Um, and people describe their, you know, their loved ones who have been in these kind of relationships as, you know, they just become a shell of themselves over time. And it's just so heartbreaking because, you know, a lot, and I mean, these women, a lot of coercive control survivors are women. Um, you know, they're there a lot of them are educated, you know, beautiful, like successful people, but they just uh their self-worth gets shattered, their confidence gets shattered because the constant bombardment of the demeaning, the insults, it just chips away at them day after day, year after year, and they just, like I said, become a shell of themselves. And it's just the saddest thing to witness, especially people who love them.
Karen Covy 16:25
Yeah, I know you like to keep people out of court as much as possible. And uh standard wisdom would say, you know, if you're divorcing a narcissist or somebody who is very controlling, you've got to go to court because nothing else will work. In your experience, is there a way to keep people who have a relationship where coercive control is involved to keep them out of the court system, either in resolving their divorce through mediation or collaborative divorce?
Jolee Vacchi 16:58
Yes. And it's funny or interesting, let me say, because a lot of the training that I received in my early years was that you can't mediate when there's been any form of domestic abuse. You can't you have to go to court. The it's the you know, the in the imbalance of power, mediation won't work. And so that's what I was taught. But what I've seen from my experience and practicing is that court becomes the abusers' kind of new playground, where they now use this as a place where they can it use it as post-separation abuse on the woman who left them. So, they'll file lots of frivolous motions, they will ask for all sorts of discovery and not, you know, disclose their own documents. They will try to bankrupt women by driving up all sorts of legal fees. And so they basically will weaponize the court process against women and just keep them in litigation forever as long as they can, because they want to keep that control over them. Um, and so a way to shut that down is to take them out of the court process. And so you have to do this strategically and with the right professionals on your side if you're the survivor of coercive control. And so you definitely want to have an attorney who's representing you, um, somebody who is trained in the dynamics of coercive control. Um, and if you pick a mediator, you want to have somebody who also recognizes that there's this power and balance between the parties because they may not want to have everybody in the same room when they're mediating. They can have safety procedures in place and go back and forth between different rooms, or if you're doing it virtually, you know, have different breakout rooms. Um, but it's and with when you're negotiating with a narcissist, you never ever want to show your full cards. You don't want to, I mean, they're probably going to assume that the kids are important to you because let's be honest, most women, the kids are going to be important to you. But, you know, maybe, you know, maybe you do want to stay in the marital home. Um, maybe that's something that's important to you. But you don't need to make that blatantly obvious. Maybe, you know, maybe you could say, you know, it might be nice for me to start over fresh and have somewhere to make some new memories, you know. Or, you know, it you don't want to give away everything you want. That's what I want to say. Keep your cards close to your vest. Um, and you might, you know, you want to give yourself some wiggle room and have some leverage when you're negotiating because you want to have something that you can let go of so you can get what is really most important to you in the end. Um, but at the end of the day, yes, I think the out of court, uh, some alternative dispute resolution methods can be very successful in these high conflict dynamics because it takes that method of control, the court, away from the abuser. It just takes it right the wind out of their sails.
Karen Covy 20:11
I can see that, but how do you, in the cases that you had you've had, how do you persuade the abuser not to go to mediation? Because it's a totally voluntary process. I mean, let me say this the court can, of course, order someone to go to mediation, but they can't order you to agree. So the you know, they can go to mediation and sit there with their arms folded and say, I'm just not gonna agree, and then it's useless. How do you get someone who wants control to go into a mediation setting which would theoretically give them less control?
Jolee Vacchi 20:48
Well, in those kind of situations, we have something else where I practice in Massachusetts called conciliation. Have you heard do you have conciliation where you are? It might be called something different. So, they we have so with conciliation, and um, it's with a usually a retired judge, and so they act as the neutral in this situation. So, it's basically like mediation. You have a neutral, but it's with a retired judge, and so they kind of see them as an authority figure, right? And so they're and they're also able to give more feedback than so they're not really neutral, like in a mediation setting, because they have so much experience on the bench. So, they basically listen to both sides. It's not a binding arbitration, but they listen to both sides and essentially say, if I were hearing this case in my courtroom based on my experience, this is how I would resolve your case and this is why. And that's the really key part here, because you know if you're, you know, arguing for something and you're unlikely to get it at trial, you should probably, you know, agree to it in the conciliation because you'd just be wasting your attorney's fees on something you're not likely to get. I like conciliation because the narcissist or the high conflict personality person. They like to um they like authority figures. They want to like they like to be charming. They think that they're going to be able to convince everybody to think they're such a great person. So, they like to put on a show. So sometimes if you can't get them to agree to a mediation model, something more like if you have someone with like a retired judge or something like that, they might be interested in that. Um, because I mean, at the end of the day, most people don't have unlimited funds to spend on just, you know, never-ending litigation. So maybe they would want to bring this to an end in some at some time. So maybe leaning on that would be something that they might go for.
Karen Covy 22:44
That's interesting because here in Illinois, we don't have something formally called conciliation, but there are a number of retired judges who do mediation, right? Yeah. So that, and I know that's true in a lot of different parts of the country. So even if it's not, if it doesn't have a formal name, I like the idea of looking for the former judge to be the mediator because of the whole authority figure aspect to it.
Jolee Vacchi 23:14
Yeah, yeah, because they think they'll be able to charm everybody. So, they'll probably be into it.
Karen Covy 23:20
Yeah, and the former judge, if they have, you know, if they've been on the bench any length of time at all, um this isn't their first rodeo, right? They've seen the behavior before. And sometimes they can be charmed 100%. But sometimes they at least have seen enough to be able to see through it a little bit more than your average Joe.
Jolee Vacchi 23:43
Yes. And you aren't waiting, I know at least where I am, trial dates are tough to get. I mean, it can be years before you get a trial date, and at least you can put an end to the ongoing litigation, and that's very important.
Karen Covy 23:58
So well, how do you put an end to the ongoing litigation post-decree? Because when you have children involved in uh in any divorce, and there's somebody who loves to litigate or really is determined to make the other side suffer, which is the characteristic of a narcissist or someone who wants control, right? How do you handle that in like ongoing litigation, post-degree kids stuff?
Jolee Vacchi 24:28
Yeah. I have a case right now that we've been in a modification for four years, unfortunately. And the we had a guardian ad litum appointed, and it took two years to come back with the report. And we were really hoping that it was going to come out in my client's favor, and dad was going to be exposed for the monster that he is. But unfortunately, the guardian ed litum kicked the can and said, We need a parent coordinator appointed here who will be a binding decision maker. So that is not the outcome that we were hoping for. We don't think that GAL really did his job in this particular case. But instead of opting for trial, my client is going to agree to this arrangement. And at least in this case, we just need somebody to be a tiebreaker. So somebody will be able to make decisions for their shared child. So that is what we're doing in this situation. And sometimes that's what we need is just somebody. If one of the parents isn't going to be given the authority to make decisions or be given the sole legal custody designation, sometimes we need a parenting coordinator who will be given that authority because otherwise you'll just be languishing in court for years until the child is 18. And that's just not sustainable.
Karen Covy 25:48
But can you explain what the role of a parenting coordinator is and how much authority they actually have?
Jolee Vacchi 25:57
Yeah. So, I mean, I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction, but where we are in Massachusetts, we have a standing order that um tells us what authority can be granted to a parenting coordinator. Essentially, all parenting decisions can be um given over to a parenting coordinator except for financial decisions. So, the parenting coordinator cannot modify child support or deal with reimbursements of expenses. Um, we um our judges can order parents to contribute towards college expenses here. So, they can't deal with any of those, but um decisions about um doctors, school placement, all of those major issues of legal custody, the parenting um coordinator's decisions are binding unless or until a parent files a modification in court and gets a court order that overrules the parenting coordinator's decision.
Karen Covy 26:59
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, the judge still has ultimate authority, but until you can get to the judge, which may be months or years, whatever the parenting coordinator says is what you have to do.
Jolee Vacchi 27:13
That's correct.
Karen Covy 27:14
Yep. So what happens? I mean, do you have any control over who becomes your parenting coordinator? And because I can see situations where if the parenting coordinator is, you know, if they don't like you, if they're not good, if they're like your GAL who just wants to kick the can down the road because all of that happens, you could be in almost a worse situation.
Jolee Vacchi 27:39
Yes. So we are currently interviewing parenting coordinators and the parties need to agree on who's being appointed. And in this particular case, we're agreeing to a two-year appointment. Um, and if in that time somebody wants to terminate the agreement, they would have to file a modification with the court to allow them to be terminated. Um, so that is how it's working in this situation.
Karen Covy 28:07
Wow, that's super interesting. So the parties have do the parties always have to agree on a parenting coordinator, or can sometimes the judges say it's gonna be this person?
Jolee Vacchi 28:19
So I'm hopeful that we will be able to agree on a parent and parenting coordinator in this case. If we narrow it down to two and cannot agree, then we will probably have to submit it to the judge and have her be the ultimate decision maker on the appointment. But we will see to be determined.
Karen Covy 28:38
Okay. So let's talk, well, let's broaden out more generally about cases involving coercive control. If someone is in that kind of a marriage, they'll know it, right? And what are they going to do differently in their divorce right out of the gate so that they can have at least the least conflictual divorce possible?
Jolee Vacchi 29:02
I would say get a support team of professionals around you. You don't want to DIY this type of a divorce. Um, you definitely want um an attorney or a mediator for sure. If there are assets involved, I would advise to get some kind of financial guidance, a certified divorce financial analyst, um, if that is, if you have, like I said, um assets. Um, and if you have, you know, a divorce coach or some kind of a support group because navigating the emotions of this kind of a high conflict divorce on your own, it's just it's unsustainable and no one should have to shoulder this on their own. So, I would gather your support team because you're going to need it.
Karen Covy 29:49
Yeah, uh a hundred percent. Um what do you think about the situation? Somebody's in, they're in a high conflict marriage, they know they're going to go through a high conflict divorce. A lot of times people live together during the divorce. That is not a good idea in this circumstance. What do you tell women that come to you it with that situation? Do you, you know, do you help them, do you say to them, you've got to find your own place, you've got to get out of the house? Many times they don't want to because of the kids. How do you navigate that kind of terrain?
Jolee Vacchi 30:25
Yeah, so I mean, it depends, but if there's um an attorney on the other side, I usually try to have a call with them and see if you know the other partner is willing to move out, or if we could maybe do a nesting arrangement for short term, if you know, finances are tight, or you know, what are the what are the available housing options that we have? Um, so in other situations, um, you know, sometimes we have to file something called a motion to vacate to get, you know, the uh an order for the other um partner to leave. So it depends on the circumstances, but in high conflict situations, it usually ends up being um not a great idea for everyone to be under the same roof.
Karen Covy 31:08
Yeah, I absolutely not, because you know, emotions are high and there's control issues to begin with. Um what about the kids? How does this kind of dynamic affect the kids and play out with children in your experience?
Jolee Vacchi 31:26
Yeah, this is the toughest part because courts, even though I just told you, I think Massachusetts is very progressive, we've just made this great new restraining order law. The judges, at least in my experience so far, haven't yet been able to connect the dots about how this issue affects custody. Unless the coercive control, you we can show a direct connection about how you know the abuser's behavior is negatively affecting the children, then the judges aren't really taking it seriously. So, like you know, you have to show that there's you know um effects on the children's schooling, like their grades are dropping, or they're going to the guidance counselor's office, or they needed to go on an IP all of a sudden, or you know, there's behavioral changes. So unless we can show some kind of correlation to the neg the negative behavior from parent A against parent B that's affecting the children, the judges right now are just not connecting the dots. And the law is usually the last thing to catch up in a lot of ways in our society. So I'm hopeful that that will come in time. But for now, what I've had to do really is bring in experts on coercive control to be able to give, you know, psychological data and studies about childhood development and how witnessing this kind of dynamic in the home actually does have negative effects on children, even though it might not, you know, be so easily um, you know, readable to the layperson's eyes. And so that's how I've had to address this. Um, but it's difficult. It is.
Karen Covy 33:18
What about the situation? Because I know so many, primarily women, who are in this situation where the abuser is weaponizing the children against them and trying to, you know, do all the things that we know are horrible for children and say, you know, your mom's a bad person, and try to alienate one parent from the children, not because they need to do that, not because the other parent is really bad, but because they want control. And that's a way to control the spouse. So how do you deal with that kind of situation?
Jolee Vacchi 33:52
Yeah, it's real, that is the toughest part, right? And so um I connect a lot of my clients to co-parenting resources and parent coaches, and have, you know, them get their children, therapists, and counselors to deal with that. Um, but I always tell my clients, you know, your ex can say whatever they want about you, and you have no control over that, right? Unfortunately, that's you can't control what comes out of his mouth. The judge can't, nobody can. All you can control is what you say and what you do with your children. You show up as the loving, kind mother you've always been, and that will be the experience that your children will have when they're with you. And that will be different than what they're hearing from dad, right? Um, and so that's how I encourage them, but I definitely connect them with other parenting resources because that is not my zone of expertise. Um, but they need that support in that area too, because unfortunately, that is a common thing that happens in these cases, and it's just devastating as a mom myself. It just breaks my heart.
Karen Covy 35:03
Yeah, a hundred percent. And what I've found in working with people in this situation myself is that just having the support makes a huge difference, even if like if they're in a support group with other people, even just knowing they're not alone. They're not the only one having to deal with this is huge.
Jolee Vacchi 35:26
Absolutely. Yeah, peer support during this kind of a life transition that's so difficult is, I mean, there's no substitute for it, really.
Karen Covy 35:36
Yeah, peer support and getting the right professional team on board as well.
Jolee Vacchi
Absolutely. Yes, that's the magic combo.
Karen Covy
Yep, absolutely. So, Julie, this has been so helpful. If people say, I want her on my professional team, or if they're they want to find you, where's the best place that they can do that?
Jolee Vacchi 35:58
Thank you. So, my firm is Foundations Family Law. So, they can go to foundationsfamilylaw.com, and that's the handle for all of our social media Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. And I also have a podcast, Divorce Detox, and Karen will be a guest on an upcoming show. So be sure to check her out there. But thank you so much for having me on. I've loved this conversation, Karen.
Karen Covy 36:24
You're welcome. Thank you for coming and for sharing so much. And for, you know, it's really inspiring to see that Massachusetts is starting to be more progressive, you know, with the laws, because you're right, the law is usually the last thing to change. And seeing that some changes are starting gives me hope.
Jolee Vacchi 36:44
Me too. And hopefully it'll spread to more places and there'll be more positive changes to come. Absolutely.
Karen Covy 36:50
So thank you again. I really appreciate your time, Jolee.
Jolee Vacchi
Absolutely, thank you.
Karen Covy
And for those out of you out there who are watching or listening, if you've enjoyed today's conversation, if you'd like to hear more conversations just like this, do me a big favor. Give the episode a thumbs up, like, subscribe, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel. It helps more than you'll ever know. And I look forward to hearing and speaking with you again next time!
