How to Break the Cycle of Codependency in Relationships

Episode Description - How to Break the Cycle of Codependency in Relationships

The hardest part of codependency in relationships is that from the outside, it can look like love. You feel like you’re the reliable one, the helper, the fixer, the person who keeps the relationship running, until one day you wake up tired, resentful, and unsure of what you even want anymore.

Psychotherapist and codependency expert Michelle Farris breaks down what codependency in relationships actually looks like. She goes beyond the textbook definition and describes the real-life signs of co-dependency: like chronic resentment, losing yourself in a relationship, and feeling like you can't trust your own instincts.

Michelle walks through what actually happens when you try to change a long-standing dynamic in a relationship, and why the other person's reaction to your changes will tell you a lot about whether the relationship has a future. She also explores how codependency often spills into how you parent, how you handle conflict, and even how you advocate for yourself during something as high-stakes as your divorce.

If you’ve ever wondered where "being helpful" ends and codependency begins, or if you’re struggling with being able to trust yourself again after years of putting everyone else first, this podcast episode is for you. You’ll discover how to finally break the cycle of codependency and create healthy, sustainable relationships with those you love.

Michelle shares a free resource on healing one-sided relationships, plus where to find her work online. If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with a friend who overgives, and leave a review so more people can find support.

Show Notes

About Michelle

Michelle Farris is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist. She helps people create relationships that work without sacrificing themselves. She has reached over 3 million viewers on her YouTube channel, where she’s known for her relationship advice and expertise. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people-pleasing and trust themselves again so they can create a happier life.

Connect with Michelle

You can connect with Michelle on LinkedIn at Michelle Farris and on Facebook at Counseling Recovery.  You can follow Michelle on YouTube at @MichelleFarrismft and on Instagram at Counseling Recovery. To learn more about how to work with Michelle, visit her website at Counseling Recovery.

Grab Michelle’s free guide:  7 Steps to Healing One-Sided Relationships

Key Takeaways From This Episode with Michelle

• Michelle Farris is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist who helps individuals build healthy relationships without sacrificing their own needs.
• Codependency is defined as a relationship pattern where one focuses excessively on rescuing or controlling others to gain the love they cannot provide for themselves.
• A key indicator of codependency is the lack of healthy boundaries, leading individuals to feel taken advantage of while doing the "heavy lifting" in a relationship.
• In a marriage, codependents often depend too much on their spouse for validation, causing them to feel crushed whenever the relationship faces conflict.
• While women are often socialized as caretakers, men also experience codependency by assuming "savior" roles, such as providing excessive financial rescue to gain appreciation.
• Changing a long-standing dynamic requires doing less for others and intentionally shifting mental energy toward identifying and meeting one's own needs.
• When a person begins to set boundaries, the health of the relationship is tested by whether the partner can tolerate that individual growth or reacts with hostility.
• During a divorce, codependency can hinder self-advocacy, as individuals may struggle to trust their own needs or feel they don't deserve assets like alimony.
• Building intuition involves paying attention to physical signs of hesitation, which often serve as a "body no" when a person is tempted to over-commit.
• This insightful discussion empowers listeners to reclaim their power and move toward a more balanced, self-trusting life.

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Transcript

How to Break the Cycle of Codependency in Relationships

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Codependency Recovery, Relationship Boundaries, Emotional Health,

SPEAKERS

Karen Covy, Michelle Farris

Karen Covy 0:10

Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.

With me today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Michelle Farris. And Michelle is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist. She helps people create relationships that work without sacrificing themselves. She's reached over 3 million viewers on our YouTube channel, where she's known for her relationship advice and expertise. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people pleasing and trust themselves again so that they can create a happier life. Michelle, welcome to the show.

Michelle Farris

Thanks so much for having me, Karen. I'm super excited.

Karen Covy

I'm excited to have you because codependency is something that a lot of people struggle with, especially in the area of you know, marriage, relationships, divorce. It shows up in full force. But before we dive into today's topic, I'm wondering if you could define codependency. Like I'd like to hear an expert definition of what this really is instead of we all have our ideas of what we think it is. What is it really?

Michelle Farris 1:45

Yeah. And to be fair, there are a lot of different definitions. But for me, it's a relationship pattern where you focus too much on helping, rescuing, or controlling others, hoping to get the love that you can't give to yourself. So, you're very externally focused on what other people are doing, and you find a way to get your value in them versus being able to have a stronger sense of self.

Karen Covy 2:13

Okay. I've got to ask you though, how do you tell the difference then? Because everybody wants to help, right? What I'm hearing you say is there's a difference between helping and helping so much that it's extreme that you're getting your value from somebody else. How do you know where that line is?

Michelle Farris 2:33

So, you know, like, first of all, codependent people have huge hearts. And we want to preserve that heart, but that heart typically doesn't have good boundaries, and that's where we get stuck. So, you know you're in a codependent relationship when you're maybe doing all the contacting and they're very minimally responding back. Uh, you feel taken advantage of a lot or resentful because inside you kind of know that you're giving and doing all the heavy lifting and they're really in the taking position. And, you know, even though, you know, the hard part is we feel like the hero at first. Oh my God, I'm being so helpful. This is my superpower. And it is, but too much of a good thing is where codependency starts to bleed in.

Karen Covy 3:25

So, if somebody's in uh in a marriage, let's say, I mean, I can see how in the beginning stages of a relationship, you could still, if you caught yourself, you know, stop things in their tracks. But once you're married, you set up patterns in the relationship. How, first of all, how do you, as the person who is wondering if you're codependent, how do you know if you A, if you are codependent, and B, if that's the pattern you've set up in the relationship? How do you know that versus I'm just being helpful?

Michelle Farris 3:59

So, the first sign is you depend too much on others for validation. And in a marriage, if you're putting all your emotional eggs into their basket and they have a bad day or the relationship isn't going well, then you're crushed versus, you know what, my relationship isn't doing well, but I'm still okay. You know, in codependency, we lose ourselves in our relationships. And you're right, those patterns can be very fixed. So, if you're codependent, you most likely have tried someone who is either problematic and dysfunctional in their own way, they might have narcissistic or self-centered tendencies, they might have really big issues that you want to fix and rescue. So, the dynamic starts early on. But when you hit recovery, you realize, oh my God, I'm tired. I don't want to do this. I mean, you know, the whole gray divorce, right, has become a huge conversation. And that's when women at the end of long-term marriages say, you know what, I'm out.

Karen Covy 5:03

So that's so interesting because you mentioned saving, rescuing, yet a lot of times, and I and I realize that this is very um biased, a very biased opinion, but I think of a rescuer as being male, right? Traditionally, right? The man wants to come in and save the poor, you know, woman who's whatever, whatever, right? But I know that it goes both ways. So, are there certain like gender-based patterns that you see, or can like men or women be codependent?

Michelle Farris 5:41

They both can be. They I think women get cultured more to be the caretaker. So they take on more and they don't ask for help because they feel like they should be able to do more because many of us in our codependency have done this since childhood. So, we're used to carrying the load. Versus, I notice the male clients I've had, they want to be the prince, they want to be the savior, they will pay, they will rescue their girlfriends financially, they will do so much for them, thinking that they're gonna get that love and appreciation back, but they're actually setting up that that give-take dynamic where they're going to be constantly rescuing and burning themselves out.

Karen Covy 6:24

So if somebody sees that pattern, regardless whether they're male or female, they see the pattern in their relationship where it seems like they're doing all the giving and the other person is doing all the taking. Yeah, what do they do? How do you it first of all? I guess the question is: is it possible to change the dynamic without completely throwing away the relationship?

Michelle Farris 6:49

Yeah, well, that's a really good question. Well, the first thing is, yeah, you can the win is that you've actually gotten to that point to say, oh my God, I am over giving. This isn't working anymore. That's the first step in change to realize what I'm doing is not working. The second is start doing less. Start shifting the focus back to yourself. Like, what do I need to do today? What are my needs? Instead of waking up in the morning and going, okay, how can I take care of my family? Who needs what? And hyper, and not to say, you know, we do this all the time, women. We're very used to uh taking care of our families. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if my if your whole focus is on taking care of others and you are not giving yourself any time mentally to take care of yourself, then it's codependency. And that's a problem. Uh and then the part two you said is how do you know that it, you know, the relationship can be saved is when you start shifting that focus back to you, when you start doing less, the relationship can tolerate it.

Karen Covy

What do you mean when you say the relationship can tolerate it?

Michelle Farris

So, whenever we change our behavior, irregardless of what it is, if we're changing a long-standing behavior, of course it's gonna affect the relationship, right? The other person's gonna go, whoa, you made my breakfast every day for 20 years and now you're not doing it. What the heck happened? So, there's naturally gonna be some uh discomfort. But if on the other hand they say, oh my God, you're not taking care of me anymore. I can't, you're  now selfish, you're now, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they turn it against you because they can't tolerate you having a voice or you setting boundaries or you actually taking time for yourself, then that's when most likely they're gonna end up, you know, not being able to stay in the relationship because it's not gonna tolerate their newfound growth.

Karen Covy 8:55

Well, let's talk about that for a minute because I can just imagine that if you have set up a pattern in your marriage that's been going on for a decade, two decades, three decades, the day that you change, of course your spouse is gonna go wrong with you, right? So how long does it take? Like, how long should you give somebody before you say, okay, they're not willing to meet me halfway versus they're just shocked because I changed.

Michelle Farris 9:27

Right, right. Well, I think that takes honestly years. I mean, you're not gonna do this in a month and expect them to be like, oh, this is great. But one way to do it too is to own it and go to your partner and say, you know what? I realize I have been over giving my whole life. This is my stuff. I really need to change this so that I can feel better about myself and that I can give to you without feeling taken advantage of or resentment, whatever. And then hopefully you're  getting buy-in from your partner to say, oh, wow, okay, you're not tagging me with it, right? You're not tagging the partner to say, well, you're just being a taker and blah, blah, blah. You're literally owning it and saying, This is my stuff, and I need to work this out. And I hope you can be patient with me, but I want to start uh counting my needs and taking my turn. So usually, you know, most people that love you, right, are gonna say, oh, well, that makes sense. But some aren't. Some are gonna say, absolutely not. That's selfish, and I can't believe you would change the pattern after X number of years. That's when you know you probably have bigger issues there.

Karen Covy 10:37

Well, yeah, because a lot of people who have boundary issues, who are codependent, seem to pair up with the people who are high conflict, narcissistic, have personality disorders of one sort or another. Right. Because they can tolerate that, they can navigate that, right? So let's say you're that person and you start standing up for yourself, you start understanding the dynamic that you've got going on, and that maybe you've got codependency issues, and so you start to shift, and your partner like just says, absolutely not. This is, you know, you're being selfish. Now what do you do?

Michelle Farris 11:21

That's the time to go to therapy, honestly. That's when I would suggest couples therapy because the spouse has to be heard about the frustration of the change, and the other spouse needs encouragement to stay on the path. And to have that witness to validate both people's struggle can be really helpful. But you know, not everybody's willing to do therapy. But sometimes that's what it takes is to realize, okay, we're at an impasse, and you know, maybe that's our next option.

Karen Covy 11:52

Yeah, that that makes sense. Um, tell me more about boundaries, right? Because everybody knows about knows what they are theoretically, right? But how do you know if the boundary that you're trying to set is healthy, if you're pushing too far, if you're not going far enough, right? Because I've heard some people whose boundaries are so rigid that it, you know, it's impossible to be with them. So tell me about healthy boundaries, what are they?

Michelle Farris 12:26

So, for me, a healthy boundary is what determines how I spend my time and energy and what I participate in and what I remove myself from. It's about what I choose to do to protect myself. It's not about getting the other person to change. So, the common example might be I need you to stop drinking, right? That's a common thing that many women and men say to their partner. But what if the other person says, uh, my drinking's fine? I'm good. Then really the boundary comes next with, okay, so you've decided that you're going to keep on drinking. Now I have a choice to make. My boundary is going to be either am I going to stay in and create my own separate life, go to Al-Anon, do my own work and expect less of my partner? Or is this a deal breaker and I need to exit because I can't live with active alcoholism anymore? So, the boundary really is always about what we do because that's what we have power over. We can't make the other person stop a certain behavior. We can request it, but you know, they have a right to say no, unfortunately, sometimes.

Karen Covy 13:38

Yeah, and that's true. And I see that a lot, especially going back to the whole gray divorce area. Yes, usually at a certain point, one partner, the non-alcoholic partner, the partner that doesn't have some sort of substance abuse issue, just says, I can't do it anymore. Yeah. And substance abuse is a really tough one because that's not something that you, it's not a habit you kick overnight, no matter what you're addicted to. So what would you say to the person who, I mean, it's like there's layers of this, right? I mean, there's the codependency issue, there's the substance issue, there's all these things. And how do you start peeling off those layers to figure out where your boundary is, specifically, do you stay or do you go, right?

Michelle Farris 14:28

Yeah. Well, it starts with your own recovery process. So, whether you're going to get tools on healing codependency, going to Al-Anon, having a therapist that specializes in this, I mean, recovery from codependency takes a long time. And it's a continuous process. It's not something that, you know, you put the plug in the jug like getting sober and you're sober. No, that's not it. It's really about how can we slowly become aware of all the areas codependency has impacted us and slowly make changes, baby steps, because that's the other thing is we need to do it at our own pace. So usually, it takes a year or so into recovery for somebody to start practicing the tools, setting little baby boundaries, like maybe if they have a partner that yells at them a lot. You don't have to have a big confrontation. You can literally just say, you know what, this isn't working for me. I'm leaving the room. Like the boundary is I'm leaving. I'm not going to participate in toxic behavior anymore. I'm not going to tell them, stop doing that, stop yelling at me, stop gaslighting me, because that's only going to inflame it. Right? So, but that's where we start is those baby boundaries that maybe protect your time or your emotional energy so that you start to get some of that back and you start to create some healthy separation if that's been an issue in your relationship.

Karen Covy 16:00

So let's say that you know you're  doing this and it's not working. It's  just the change in the relationship, as you put it, can't tolerate the change. How does codependency interact with or or overlap in divorce, right? How does it show up in divorce? And if you've got, if you know that codependency is your issue, what do you do differently in divorce?

Michelle Farris 16:29

Well, hopefully you have the support up front because codependent people in divorce are gonna have a harder time advocating for themselves and setting boundaries because they're not gonna know or they're not gonna trust what they know. So, they're gonna be, and if they're having a hard time letting go, because even though most women initiate divorce, even when we're the ones initiating the divorce, we still have a grieving process and we still have a hard time letting go of our partner. So those things really can impact how you advocate for yourself in divorce. Because if you don't want to let go, then you may avoid the divorce process altogether and stay in a toxic marriage until it rots, you know, and we don't want that, you know. It also is gonna make it harder for them to make good decisions because they're not going to be able to trust what they want and need is important. So, they might say, well, gosh, I don't deserve to ask for alimony because whatever, right? If they feel less than and they don't feel deserving, then they may go through a divorce and not ask for much. You know, now, granted, the flip side happens too, which you probably see a lot, where they're really angry and they have no problem doing this, but sometimes it's it is the opposite. And they don't even trust their decision to separate because their partner's telling them, well, this is if only you hadn't changed, if only you would whatever, then we would be fine. And then we, as the codependent, actually start believing that instead of trusting that, you know what, the relationship has died and you know that and you have to honor that.

Karen Covy 18:18

How do you get to that point where you can trust yourself, though? Because part of the whole issue with codependency is it's been going on most likely since childhood, right? You don't even know how to start trusting yourself.

Michelle Farris 18:34

Right. Well, that's where shifting the focus off of other people and back onto you. Literally, if you if the one thing you do differently is to wake up in the morning and go, okay, what do I need to do today? What would be good for me? And then all of us have these little mini hits of intuition throughout the day. Like somebody asks us for a favor and all of a sudden our gut feels like we've been punched. Like, oh, I don't want to do that, but I'll do it. I'll say yes, right? We all have that ability and those signs that tell us where our no is. And that's how you build your intuition is it's funny, this just happened to me the other day. I went, I wanted to go to the beach and it's an hour drive. And I woke up in the middle of the night the night before, going, you know, I shouldn't go. And I'm like, there's no reason not to go. Traffic was fine, weather was fine. And I ended up going anyway. I came back and I was so wiped out. I regretted going. And it was just that little, even without the evidence, we have to learn to trust that. And most of the time I do trust it now because I've done it so many times. But once in a while, one sneaks in and you're like, hey, there's no reason not to say yes to this. It'll be fine. And then you do it and you realize, oh, I feel awful, or now I'm resentful again. So, it's really important to be able to find those inner no's that your body is saying, you know, hey, this isn't okay with me. I want to say no.

Karen Covy 20:03

How do you learn to find it and trust it? That those, like you said, your body says no, this is a no for me. Well, how do you know you're not just being lazy or you don't feel like it, or like how do you know it's really a no?

Michelle Farris 20:19

Well, because of how you feel on the back end. So, when I came home exhausted, I knew that you know what? I was right. I was right. And you do this enough times, and that's where honestly our mistakes are our biggest teachers. Because the more you don't listen to your intuition and then just notice the results. Don't judge yourself. Just notice, like, okay, what happened that you said yes and you meant no. Well, I was really resentful. I didn't want to talk to her, I don't want to pick up the phone anymore. Like, what's going on? Because you do that enough times and you start to realize, huh, maybe I'm gonna try to actually say no and do something different. But that's where honestly it's looking back on all those times you wish you would have said no and it didn't go well because you didn't honor yourself.

Karen Covy 21:10

That makes sense. I mean, it's a little, it's a little frustrating though, because you want to know in the moment. Um it is, but that makes sense.

Michelle Farris 21:20

Well, and your body is telling you. So, if you know that you have certain like a stomach ache, your throat's closing, like there are certain telltale physical signs of people where they know they don't want to do something. Like you know when someone asks you to do something, and it's either a heck yes, of course I'll help you, and I have no problem at all, or oh, there's a hesitation. That's the point of contact with yourself is when you experience any type of hesitation, that's usually a sign that it's a no for you.

Karen Covy 21:55

So, this makes sense, but somebody who's codependent isn't just typically Or tell me if I'm wrong. They're not just codependent in one relationship, right? They're codependent across the board. So, we've talked about how codependency interacts with divorce in terms of your spouse, but what about your kids? Because your kids have probably gotten used to you doing everything for them or always like being there for them and overfunctioning so they don't have to. How do you deal with that relationship if you can't divorce your kids?

Michelle Farris 22:30

No. Well, the first thing I'll say is this is where people have the hardest struggle. They're more willing to do it in their romantic relationships with their family, with their friends, but with their kids, it's usually the last frontier because it's so hard. But it's like little things like can you stop doing things for them that they could be doing for themselves? How can you start pulling back a little bit? Like not doing, like let's just say you have an 18-year-old living with you. Maybe you don't do their laundry. Maybe you don't um fund them completely. I don't know. I mean, little things that you can do to start doing less without it being so overwhelming that you feel like a bad mom, because that's where we go. We go, oh, I'm a bad mom if I don't constantly give to them. So, you want to look at where are those teeny tiny areas? Maybe they come home and they're upset. Instead of trying to fix it, you validate and go, oh, it sounds like you had a hard day. And then you be quiet, right? You just let them go to you. Because of course, when they're a young adult, that's what happens. They want the power to talk when they want to talk and not be forced into a conversation.

Karen Covy 23:40

That makes that makes sense. But they also want that power, but they also like when somebody's doing all their stuff, right? 

Michelle Farris 23:51

Well sure they do because they get accustomed to being taken care of too.So that could warrant another conversation to even talk to your kids and say, I mean, I've  done this with my son, and I've said, you know that I have a hard time setting boundaries sometimes with you because of my codependency. And he's like, Yeah, I know. But we have that dialogue. And so I can be honest and use it as a teaching moment. Because if I'm trying to be the perfect parent, my kid already knows I'm not a perfect parent. So why am I doing that? Instead, I could literally use my recovery to help him understand what healthy behavior is, what I'm shooting for, why I'm doing these new behaviors. Because then you're actually, you're actually giving your child what they need, but in a very loving way by making it about you. You're not saying, well, you're you've become this selfish brat, right? You're not doing that. You're saying this is what I need to do differently so that I can be a better parent. And usually kids are gonna be like, they're not tagging me with that. So, it's easier for them to hear.

Karen Covy 24:54

Yeah. That that definitely makes sense. But and I know this probably depends on your child and their maturity level, but at what point, like what's age appropriate, right? And what you're not gonna have this conversation with a two-year-old, but you would with an 18-year-old, I would expect so like where do you draw the line? How much is too much to share?

Michelle Farris 25:19

Yeah, I would, I mean, it I wouldn't necessarily like I don't go into detail about my codependency with him, but he knows about it. He knows I'm an overgiver. He, I mean, he knows me. When n they live with us, they already know what our stuff is. But, you know, when you're like if you have an eight to 10-year-old, you know, are you letting them do chores? Are you letting them do their homework without doing it for them? Like, what are those age-appropriate activities? Like, if they're having friendship struggles, are you getting them some help? Or are you trying to fix it and solve it all the time? And now you're so anxious that they're anxious. Like, what are some things you can do? There's lots of age-appropriate things we can do. And then, of course, in teenager, uh, it's really about fostering more independence.

Karen Covy 26:07

Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, you mentioned recovering that, you know, you've got codependency issues, as I think almost every female does, but whatever. Um so is this something is being a codependent kind of like being an alcoholic? Like you never really recover, you're always in recovery.

Michelle Farris 26:28

You know, I think so. Uh, I mean, I've done this work for 30 years and I'm way better than when I started, but I still have twinges. I mean, I still have that big heart that I want to help. And now I have a whole lot more boundaries around it. But there are times when I can slip back into an old pattern and go, oop, yep. But I don't slip as hard or as far back because I know it's gonna hurt. And so, I mean, I definitely want to give people hope that, you know, the longer you work on yourself, right, the better it does get. But there is a period of our recovery too, where it's really hard because we're looking at changing behaviors like people pleasing and getting to avoid conflict and stuffing down our anger. Like those are hard. Those are hard to do. But you get to choose what where to start. And that's what I also love about the personal growth process is you know, you go where you're most motivated.

Karen Covy 27:30

Yeah. You know, you mentioned stuffing down your anger, and a lot of times I know that people who've got these kinds of codependency issues, it's like you don't let you don't express your emotions the way you would like to, let's say. And I, you know, what happens when we stuff down the anger? Does it just go away? What is it? What happens to a human when they're not expressing their emotion, they're denying it and pushing it away?

Michelle Farris 28:03

So, it stays as an undercurrent and they collect. So for instance, if I keep saying yes and I mean no, you know, the sixth or seventh time I do that in the same relationship, I am going to feel differently about that other person than when I first did it because I'm gonna feel taken advantage of, I'm gonna feel resentful, even though I'm actually the one doing it. I mean, that's the clusters. I'm actually the one saying yes. There, they have nothing to do with it, but I feel that obligation. So, what happens is codependent people seem super nice for a really long time. And then sometimes it just takes one more brick in the backpack and all of a sudden they explode. And then they're kind of freaked out, and their family's like, whoa, like you, you never yell at me like this. But it's too much, it's too much pressure. We can't take it anymore, and we finally break and say, you know what? I cry, uncle, I can't do this anymore. And that's that undercurrent. We, you know, that undercurrent doesn't go away. It creates that low level anxiety and stress that we really can't ever resolve because we're not addressing it.

Karen Covy 29:14

Yeah, I love that. And the way you talk about resentment, because I know having had a few codependent issues myself at one point in time, you know, you get to the point where you really resent whoever it is you're in a relationship with because you feel taken advantage of. Um, and then and then you just explode, as you said, and everybody thinks, like, what just happened to her? Right. And because it can be, it can be pretty wild. So would that be if you're starting to feel resentment, is that a sign that maybe this is something you need to look into?

Michelle Farris 29:54

Oh, for sure. I mean, that's why I created a resentment journal, because there is a process you can do where you write out what happened and you get to your part. And that is what usually will shift a resentment is to see, because when we're resentment, we're in resentment, we were thinking about what was done to us, but we kind of miss well, what's our part? And sometimes in codependency, our part is, well, we keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting something different. And we've actually set us up for this frustration, and that's that can shift the resentment though, because then the onus is on me to change, not expecting the other person to change, and that can be very powerful.

Karen Covy 30:38

Um that that's so interesting that you know that it's all about a perception shift, right? When you see your part in this, suddenly things look a little bit different. Yeah, they look a lot different. And that's what I want to focus on because I'm sure you're familiar with the work of John Gottman. Oh, yeah. Right. And one of the biggest um relationship killers, shall we say, is contempt, which is resentment, right? So, when we start to resent our partner, we you get to the point of contempt, right? Right. So, if you are at that place where you're kind of far down the road, right? You've already been in this pattern for a long time and you've got a lot of the resentment and the contempt built up. How do you come back from that?

Michelle Farris 31:33

Well, you have to start doing your own work. And when there's 20 years of resentment, right? There's really it's not really fair to expect our partner to hear all that because usually our resentment is about a lot of other stuff too, what it's touching, our childhood, other friendships, other relationships, our history. So, it's really about us taking responsibility and saying, wow, I have a lot of resentment, I have a lot of anger, I need help, versus I need them to fix their behavior so I'm not resentful anymore. Because again, the other person could always say no.

Karen Covy 32:11

Yeah. And that's, as you said, that's where you get your power from is what can you control, which is not them.  So it sounds like somebody who's in this though, when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to see and it's hard to suss out. Like, how much am I resentful of you because of what you've done in our relationship versus what happened to me when I was six? Right?

Michelle Farris 32:39

Well, that's where writing is so powerful because I often recommend just free-float writing on your resentment because usually you'll start with the current situation, and then if you keep writing, you may find, oh wow, this connected to my dad. And that's really exciting because then you realize it's not just about what's currently happening in the present. And that can happen a lot.

Karen Covy 33:02

Is it ever like have you worked with people who are hopeless? Like they're just they can't break the pattern, they can't break the cycle if they want to.

Michelle Farris 33:14

Yes, but they're in therapy for a reason. So, they may need more validation, they may need to be heard and seen more. And hopefully, you know, there's a moment where a relationship ends, or there's an outside trigger that makes them more motivated to do something different. And that, you know, that's human nature. We don't go to therapy because it's good for us, we go to therapy because something happened and now we don't know what to do.

Karen Covy 33:43

Right. That makes that makes sense. So, if but what I'm hearing is there's a real value to therapy to have somebody there with you who can validate and tell you. So, if somebody didn't know, if they're starting to look at their relationship and say, I don't like this pattern, I don't know what it's about. Like it seems like going and getting an outside opinion might be something that could help you along a lot.

Michelle Farris 34:11

Absolutely. And honestly, that's why I've created a lot of my resources to help walk people through what are some starting points that they can shift the focus back to themselves, start to set boundaries, start to practice detachment.

Karen Covy 34:25

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And speaking of resources, I know that you've got some free resources for our listeners. So, can you tell me about that?

Michelle Farris 34:35

Yeah, I have a free resource, the seven steps to healing one-sided relationships, where that's literally what we do is we start shifting that focus, talk a little bit about boundaries, how to start practicing them, detachment, which is really letting the other person have their reality without trying to fix it. And just doing less for the relationship and more for yourself, because often that is the cure to create a healthier balance so you're not always overgiving.

Karen Covy 35:06

That makes sense. And where can people find it?

Michelle Farris 35:09

Uh, my website, counselingrecovery.com, and then I have a YouTube channel, uh, Relationships that work with Michelle Ferris that I have lots of videos on codependency there too.

Karen Covy 35:20

Awesome. And if people want to learn more about you and maybe work with you and get some help in this area, where's the best place for them to go to find you?

Michelle Farris

Probably counselingrecovery.com, my website.

Karen Covy

That makes so much sense. And for anyone who's listening, everything is going to be linked in the show notes. So, you'll have really easy access to Michelle. Michelle, thank you so much. This is such an important topic, and so many people struggle with it. So, I really appreciate I appreciate your being here and sharing your wisdom.

Michelle Farris

Thank you.

Karen Covy

And for those of you who are out there watching or listening, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you'd like to hear more episodes just like this, do me a big favor. Give the episode a thumbs up, like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you again next time.