Episode Description - The Truth About Power and Marriage Equality
Most people in unhappy marriages aren’t stuck because they suddenly fell out of love with each other. They’re stuck because the relationship has developed a fundamental power imbalance that has eroded trust and dashed the dream of marriage equality that the couple shared in the early days of their marriage.
In this podcast episode, Drs. Jake and Jennifer Dean-Hill, therapists, authors, and married partners who've built their lives around the science of equal partnership, share the story of how their own 33-year marriage became the laboratory for their “Two Crowns Framework” — a model built on the radical idea that true marital harmony requires both people to stay fully themselves.
The doctors dig into why so many relationships quietly default to one person leading and the other shrinking and why women, in particular, are often conditioned to hand their power over without even realizing it.
The Two Crowns Framework offers a concrete alternative model for marriage equality and relationship harmony. It’s grounded in mutual respect, shared power, and the idea that when two whole people bring their full selves into their marriage, without shrinking, they can create a “kingdom” that’s stronger than what either of them can create on their own.
The Drs. also get specific about boundaries, motivation, and the surprising science behind why conflict escalates differently for men and women. They dive deeply into what it actually takes to rebuild trust once a relationship has hit a breaking point.
Whether your marriage is “on the fence” or you’re already facing divorce but want to create a peaceful co-parenting relationship, this podcast episode can help you create the solid relationship you desire.
Show Notes
About Drs. Jake & Jenn
Drs. Jake & Jennifer Dean-Hill are therapists, authors, and partners in every sense of the word. As college sweethearts turned clinicians, they discovered that harmony in partnership comes from shared purpose. Through their own evolution, they developed the Wear Two Crowns framework: a modern model of partnership built on mutual respect, power, and peace. Today, they help couples, leaders, and organizations learn how to lead together without losing themselves in the process. Drs. Jake & Jenn both have their Masters in Social Work, their License in Independent Clinical Social Work, and Doctorates in Global Leadership and they reside in Southeast WA state.
Connect with Drs. Jake & Jenn
You can connect with Drs. Jake & Jenn on LinkedIn at Drs. Jake & Jenn and on Facebook at Drs. Jake & Jenn. You can follow Drs. Jake & Jenn on YouTube at @DrsJakeJenn and on Instagram at Drs. Jake & Jenn. To learn more about how to work with Drs. Jake & Jenn, visit their website at Drs. Jake and Jenn. And you can find their book here Two Crowns, One Kingdom: Navigate the dark forest to reach your happily-ever-after.
Key Takeaways From This Episode with Drs. Jake & Jennifer Dean-Hill
- Drs. Jake and Jennifer Dean Hill are therapists, authors, and partners who hold doctorates in global leadership and specialize in helping couples lead together without losing their individual identities.
- The guests share their personal journey from college sweethearts to professional collaborators, including the symbolic legal name change that solidified their identity as the "Dean Hills".
- The Two Crowns framework emphasizes that a successful "One Kingdom" marriage requires both partners to maintain their individual "crowns" of self-respect, power, and autonomy.
- Dr. Jennifer highlights the importance of women unapologetically "taking their thrones" to counteract societal pressures that often push them into subordinate roles within a relationship.
- The discussion explores how men can share power effectively by understanding that a fulfilled, respected partner ultimately leads to a more harmonious and beneficial life for both.
- Dr. Jake explains a practical exercise where couples write down their ideal marriage separately to identify shared values and hold each other accountable to their own stated desires.
- The couple addresses the "D-word" panic, noting that while a threat of divorce often motivates change, true trust restoration typically requires at least nine months of consistent new behavior.
- Dr. Jenn explains the science of attachment, describing how reducing adrenaline-fueled fear and increasing oxytocin can create a "home" where both partners feel safe and nurtured.
- Practical conflict-resolution tips are shared, such as the surprising finding that men sitting down during a disagreement can lower the conflict level by approximately 60%.
- This conversation serves as a powerful reminder that while relationships require constant growth and learning, it is entirely possible to build a partnership based on mutual respect and shared purpose.
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Transcript
The Truth About Power and Marriage Equality
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
marriage equality, relationship therapy, shared leadership
SPEAKERS
Karen Covy, Drs. Jake & Jennifer Dean-Hill.
Karen Covy 0:10
Hello and welcome to Off the Fence, a podcast where we deconstruct difficult decision making so we can discover what keeps us stuck, and more importantly, how we can get unstuck and start making even tough decisions with confidence. I'm your host, Karen Covy, a former divorce lawyer, mediator, and arbitrator, turned coach, author, and entrepreneur. And now without further ado, let's get on with the show.
With me today, I have the pleasure of having two guests, Drs. Jake and Jennifer Dean Hill. And Drs. Jake and Jennifer are therapists, authors, and partners in every sense of the word. As college sweethearts turn clinicians, they discovered that harmony and partnership comes from shared purpose. Through their own evolution, they developed the Wear Two Crowns Framework, a modern model of partnership built on mutual respect, power, and peace. Today, they help couples, leaders, and organizations learn how to lead together without losing themselves in the process. Doctors Jake and Jenn both have their masters in social work, their licenses in independent clinical social work, and doctorates in global leadership, and they reside in Southeast Washington State. Doctors Jake and Jennifer, welcome to the show.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 1:29
Thank you. Wow, that was a lot.
Karen Covy 1:31
That was a lot. That was a lot. But you've done a lot. And I'd like to take you, I'd like to start with your backstory. I know you were college sweethearts, but how did you get to the place where you're at today, working with couples, working with leaders, focusing on this two crowns framework? What led you to this place? Wherever you want to start.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 1:52
You start.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 1:54
Love that. You dished me up like that. Well, I think to try to keep this concise, I would just simply say uh it's first started with each other. Like this is this is a longing that we have in our hearts to have unity. And we didn't know really how to do that at 20, you know, when we met each other. And um then, but we I really liked for I'll speak for me, I really liked what I saw with Jake, who seemed to be progressive and beyond his time to be just very inclusive. He would just continue to and very mutual. Um, I think the story we tell quite a bit that really won my heart is that he was working in a youth ministry position at a church and he wanted me to be a part of the uh or the uh um leadership, leadership, correct. And I wanted to do it too. I was looking at being an educator, and so I got on board with that, and he insisted on paying half of his stipend to me, unbeknownst to me, and I just couldn't get him to stop paying anywhere, both such poor college students, and he would make a big deal and do a payday, and we weren't even dating at that time, we were just good friends, and so I think I made a made a mental note. I'm like, this guy is uh, I think he's gonna be really fair to me. And more importantly, it's more important for him to be fair than to him to keep his money. And uh that just started a big, I think a big um uh journey for us to really understand what would it look like actually if we came together. And then it was became very clear too that it was really important that we kept our own worlds, you know. So halfway we ended up getting married, and then halfway into our relationship, I started my clinical practice and I took my maiden name back and I was like, I miss my name, I miss me. So and Jake goes, Well, good, go for it. And then he's like, Well, I want to have share your name as well. And that's how we became the Dean Hills. And uh we had two kids, a boy and a girl, and uh they were like, Well, we want to have the same name. So, we all became the Dean Hills. We all came in, and I'm sure the judge thought we were nuts, but we just all changed our names and said, This is what we did it legally, we did it legally, yeah. Our kids were in middle school, yeah, and uh I had had the name, my name, just a professional name, and uh we just said this is something that it's kind of a declaration. I think there's a lot to be said when you change your name. Uh, but it just really started us on a very, I would say, fierce and brave course to say we we are unapologetically moving forward as equals. And just because you get married, one of the things we find is there becomes a subordinate or second-class citizen. And we were determined not to have that in our relationship. So, it became a professional or personal quest first, then it evolved into a professional quest, which came out of 33 years later, wear two crowns.
Karen Covy 5:05
Wow. That is that's quite an incredible story. And it, there's so much in there that that I want to dive into. But the, you know, so you get out of college and you've done way more than college, by the way. It's not like you got a bachelor's and said, okay, we're done, right? You guys kept on. And you're both clinicians. Um, do you both do you when you work with couples, do you work with them together or separately? And why?
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 5:35
We do work them uh mostly separately. Uh, we both kind of have our own clientele and our own practice, but uh there'll be times when uh a couple calls for both of us being in the room at the same time, and uh it becomes a challenge scheduling-wise uh and such. But uh it's such a cool opportunity when that happens, because I get to kind of advocate and get the perspective of the husband, and then she gets to, you know, do that for the wife, and we get to kind of tag team and help the process. And you know, the couples who do it, uh most couples don't want to pay for two therapists at the same time, but the couples who do it do seem to uh enjoy that.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 6:24
Yeah, I think it's really we've often heard the feedback, it's great to have a male perspective and a female perspective. Um, so it's fun when we are able to do it, but a lot of times just because of our client load and um the cost, right? It just we pretty much have our own practice, but we will swap back and forth between the two of us because what we're just a knock away in the in the office, you know. But we'll say, okay, if you want to see my husband for these issues, and a lot of times we're referring back and forth for areas that we both specialize in, but the other one does not.
Karen Covy 6:59
That's that is really, really cool. Um, so but before we go on any farther, I've got to know about your two crowns framework. What is that and how did it come to be?
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 7:13
Well, that was kind of a process. Uh we uh developed a curriculum uh for marriage since we have done so much marriage therapy. We developed a curriculum 10 years ago?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 7:28
Yeah, about 15 probably. 15 years ago. Yeah.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 7:31
Called One Kingdom. And it was all about bringing the Pink Kingdom and the Blue Kingdom together to make purple, and it was all about blending, and we had this whole fairy tale theme to it. It was uh it was such a cool we had videos and now we have a book, but ironically, in the process of uh developing that, uh we realized that at the crux of it is you can't have one kingdom if you don't each have your own crown. And so, the two crowns concept came out of that in terms of really understanding yourself and what you bring to the table and respecting each other's crown, like we are king and queen of our castle. We both have a throne, we both have mutual respect, equality. And so that makes the entire bringing together as one uh work.
Karen Covy 8:36
Okay, let me let me push back a little bit because of course in every kingdom, well, not of course, but in most kingdoms, there is a king and a queen, right? And but that doesn't mean that they're equal partners. And I know so many people would love to have what you have, but there's still, even if they say, okay, you're king and you're queen, somehow the queen always ends up underneath the king. So how do you go about, if you're a couple, making the crowns equal or on the same level?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 9:07
That's such a great question. I'm gonna answer that one because I will just simply say it really does rest a lot on the woman because society is continually demoting the woman, right? We know this either there's the gender gap in in the workforce as well as in the women are spending, I think, or men spend 80 cents to the dollar on them, women spend 80 cents to the dollar on themselves, or excuse me, on the families, right? So uh this is what we'll see too, and women are working two jobs, right? So, there's a lot coming out as far as the mental load and fair play in marriage. One of the things, first of all, I would just simply say that value needs to be there for equity. Unity demands equity, in my opinion, right? That's just. And a lot of times uh the man may not have that. They're either bringing in patriarchal values, hierarchical values that start to guide uh the relationship. So, there's that's the first thing I would say. There needs to be that value on both parties. Then I just gotta say, the woman's got, I'm constantly saying to the women, and so is Jake, take your crown, take your throne, right? Promote yourself. Don't wait for other people to do this. Take leadership in promoting yourself.
Karen Covy 10:22
Okay, but women are taught from babies, you know, don't promote yourself. You're bragging, right? Right. How do you how do you deal with that? How do you help a woman deal with that, not feeling like they're bragging or all full of themselves?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 10:37
Or um other words come to mind too, right? So, it's like selfish seems to be the worst characteristic you can subscribe to a woman. So, the first thing I tell women is let that go. If people are gonna call you selfish or bitchy or whatever things that subscribe to that, um, that's that is old stereotypes and that is naivety. One of the things that we have to differentiate between as women is being self-nurturing and fair to ourselves. And uh that oftentimes gets uh redefined as being um anything but self-nurturing, selfish or whatever, right? So, I mean, we just look at our politics. I used to be a history teacher too, but you know, the our history is with women, it's not been easy to find a voice, right? So, the first the first MO it seems to be of our culture a lot of times is to make this simple, let's just choose one ruler and let's let it be the man, right? And that seems to be the subconscious that guides the relationship um from its origin. So, it works well. It's actually a very great model if both people buy into that. I'll be the second-class citizen, or you make most of the decisions, right? Um, but it is disastrous, obviously, if both people want power, which is really how we're designed to be a power, powerful individuals, so a power with instead of a power over needs to guide the relationship.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 12:13
But you're right, there's a lot of stereotypes that that override that. And what we're taught in our culture is to is to somebody has this buck has to stop with somebody.
Karen Covy 12:26
How does a man, Dr. Jake, how does a man deal with this when they want that equality in the relationship, but they don't want to be, I'll use a nice word, a pushover, right? They don't want to be the weak perceived as weak, right? Because that's men in in our world have to be strong, women are supposed to be submissive, right? So how does a man not like mess up his own image or you know, crush his own ego, but yet bring that equality to into a partnership?
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 13:01
Well, here's what here's what I key into with men is a happy wife equals a happy life, right? And so teaching men that if you can learn how to respect your wife and treat her as an equal and um have that partnership, she's going to be more fulfilled and happy. And so it ends up benefiting you. And I think I know never meet with a man who doesn't need some kind of incentive, right? There needs to be something in it for them, for them to do something different.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 13:38
What's in it for me?
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 13:39
Exactly. Yeah, they're all about what's in it for me, and I think our culture, you know, enforce reinforces that. And so, when you can appeal to that and say, this will end up benefiting you, and you can still hold on to your power, you're just sharing the power. And it's not about I take out the trash, you take out the trash, I do this, you do that. It's not about that, it's about leaning into our strengths and deferring to each other based on who we are and what we're good at. And so it's this collaborative, symbiotic relationship.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 14:21
I just have to add on to that because I heard this yesterday from one of my male clients who's married to a very strong, capable, competent, intelligent, beautiful woman. And he just looked at me and he said, I tell guys, dude, your ego is not your amigo.
Karen Covy
Oh, I love that. Ego is not your amigo.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill
And he said, It's just not gonna work, it's just not gonna work and to be able to keep putting your ego forward. So it does take a very confident, secure man. Like, I don't have anything to prove. I'm I am a healthy, uh, capable, competent, intelligent man, and I don't need to be in a place of dominance to be able to have that established.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 15:04
Right. And it does reveal how many men have those kind of secret insecurities.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 15:09
Oh, yeah. Which is a whole nother podcast, probably going back to fathers and fatherless or whatever.
Karen Covy 15:16
Everything goes back to your father and your mother, usually the mother, but you know, fathers share a little bit.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 15:21
You're absolutely right, Garrett.
Karen Covy 15:23
It's like, I don't know why anybody has kids because everything is going to be our fault. But, anyways, that's a different discussion.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 15:30
It is a different discussion. The mother, I'm on a quest for that too. It's like, let's share the blame, please.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 15:36
Yeah, share the blame.
Karen Covy
But share the joy as well.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 15:38
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Karen Covy 15:43
So what happens with a couple? Because like I love this and I love the model, and you two are like two equals who have come together to build something stronger. That's what so many people today would love to have in a relationship, right? But they don't, right? So if something isn't working in the relationship, the first thing that most people think of is either there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with them, right? And you see, you're either into blame or shame. How do you get out of that cycle and that mindset?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 16:18
Well, you nailed that. That's one of our points. Sustain out of blame and shame and really just take responsibility. Remember first that you have your own kingdom, you know, that that you're responsible for that. I remember when we got married, keep your crown on. Right. Both my parents are were therapists. And so we went to light our unity candle. And back in the day, they don't do this as much, but back in the day, you blew out both of you, the other candles, and you had the one candle. My mother, very insightful, I didn't understand it then, but told me, Don't you dare blow out your candle. We saw all three candles burning and as a symbol. As a symbol. And people said, Oh, you messed up. You didn't. I'm like, no, my mom told me not to blow up my mom told me. And uh that was uh has been such a symbol for me, I think, moving forward as a woman. What a gift to have a uh strong mom, to say, you you can still have this one oneness, but I want your voice, I want your presence to be very uh equal and seen in this relationship. So I think that's a big part of it too, is what are we given permission to be? I was given permission, if you will, to be that and it not be, even though it might be counter-cultural, uh, it was something that gave me more fulfillment. So, you know, I can let you speak to that too.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 17:44
Yeah, I think that's partly why we really promote people really understanding themselves and really getting clear on who they are. A lot of times we get lost in our spouse, and or especially moms get lost in motherhood, right? Or they put their marriage on the shelf, they put themselves on the shelf, and then they forget what shelf they put it on. Uh and that process of just losing yourself and losing your identity makes it hard to put your crown on, makes it hard to stand up and be an equal. And so then you're not as strong together. Uh, and so you end up you end up just acquiescing, you end up just you know going along with things and it breeds resentment and bitterness, which is ultimately couples finally get tired of and they think that the only option is divorce.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 18:45
Yeah, you can't be ashamed of your own kingdom. If you're ashamed of who you are, then you'll bring it in to your the we call it the purple kingdom, but the one kingdom where it is uh that that has to be resolved in yourself. You have to be proud of who you are and what you're contributing. But a lot of times we're fighting ourselves. You know, there's this internal conflict happening that am I good enough or are am I going to be name-called as a woman if I step out in my power and strength?
Karen Covy 19:18
You know, but the interesting thing is when things aren't going in a marriage, going well in a marriage, um, our natural tendency is to point the finger at the other person. He doesn't respect me. She doesn't respect me, right? So, there's nothing wrong with me. It's them. How do you get people to take perhaps a more objective look at what's going on in their relationship so that they can actually create the one kingdom where they both have a crown?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 19:49
That that's a great, another great question on that, too. I think uh our book really lines that out, which is two crowns, one kingdom. But really, it's about seven longings that we all have, male or female, that we all want to be chosen. We all want to be loved, we all want to be honored, right? So, it's not exclusive to one gender. This is something we all want, right? So, when we can get back to this is what we were, we're all designed and hardwired for. It does regardless. I always use this analogy too. I'm like going, do you think men were the only ones that needed to be nursed and fed? No, women, babies needed it too, right? Girl babies need that as well. So, we all need to be nurtured. So, when we can actually come with what is the same with all of us, to be that we have these internal longings, that it's not something that's exclusive to one gender. Now we're starting on the same playing field, right? So, if we can uh start, and then it increases the empathy and compassion for one another. So some of the things that sometimes what we'll do is we'll help encourage our clients to see their partner as a little boy or as a little girl, right? Like this is not this, they grew up into this and thought this is what is making a good husband or a good wife, but there was a day they didn't know any different, right? They were just having fun and living, living large in life and uh not worried about the shame and not worried about offending, just being free.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 21:22
Right. Yeah, one of the things I say to my couples all the time is you know, the age-old thing is why do we hurt the ones we love? And you know, because it seems preposterous, it's like this is the person you love, but the way you speak to them and the way you treat them is like horrible. Um, but what I remind them is if we said and did the exact same thing to a perfect stranger, it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't even have any relevance. But the reason it hurts, it's because they are the ones we love. And that is something that you have to remember that says no. Nobody wakes up in the morning saying, I can't wait to hurt my spouse. Right. Unless you're a sociopath, which we don't work with those.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 22:07
Narcissists.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 22:08
Um so it's always unintentional. It's always, you know, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 22:16
And it doesn't mean it shouldn't be corrected.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 22:18
Exactly.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 22:19
So it does demand, I think, a lot of um humility to say what am I doing great in and what am I not? It demands a lot of trust with your partner to say when they reflect to you, hey, you've got a character flaw in this, that you lean into that and you listen to that. It doesn't mean you necessarily obey it, but maybe you consider, you know, it's about it's about collaborating, trusting one another, hearing each other, but remembering that this person is for you, assuming the best.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 22:48
Right.
Karen Covy 22:49
Well, what do you what do you do though if like this is assuming that both people, or it sounds like it's assuming both people actually want to work on the marriage, they want to make it better. So many of the people that come to me, it's like, yeah, my spouse won't go to therapy, won't go to couples counseling, won't do any of the things. And now they're on the fence. Like, should I stay in this marriage or should I go? How can you, you know, what would you say to that person? How can they make that kind of a decision?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 23:21
I first would say go back to their own personal longings. You know, what is not being met? Are you not being loved? Are you not being honored? And typically, people will look at us and typically say, well, if we had a marriage like you, and I'm like, let me just blow this out of the water. It's very, very hard to try to do a relationship in this way, right? This typically studies even show is increases conflict in the relationship because you both have an opinion about everything, right? And it typically are pretty uh strong-willed and you dig in, right? Um, but I think the big thing, what you tell people is how are you using your energy? Are you using your energy trying to push away from this relationship through complaining and criticizing? Or are you using your energy to say, what do I long for and have I taught my partner about who I am? And this is rarely happening in relationships. We have this, in my opinion, really mythical concept that we're going to somehow find our soulmate and that person is all developed, ready to go, and knows exactly what you need, and you don't even have to ask for it. So those are the myths we blow out the water. We're like, this is a teaching process. You know, we're in a 33-year marriage. We are still learning about each other. We are still needing to take timeouts from each other, we still need to take breaks from each other, we still need to improve, you know, how we um self-regulate, all these different things. So, I would just say it's an ongoing growth. You don't ever arrive, or there's not a person that has ever arrived ready to be the perfect partner.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 25:00
Yeah, I my answer too would be when you say, How do you how do you make that decision as far as you're wanting to work on the marriage your spouse doesn't? A lot of times it goes back to motivation again. And one of the things that we talk to couples about is the whole concept of boundaries, which boundaries in marriage is always very complicated because we have this, we're kind of taught that there is no boundaries in marriage. Like, you know, your body belongs to me, your stuff belongs to me, my, you know, this is everything shared, right? There's no there's no boundaries. But one of the things I remind people is that when you're wanting to save the marriage and the and your spouse doesn't, they're still benefiting oftentimes from the marriage. And they don't realize that. Whether you're making dinner, whether you're doing laundry, whether you're present in the same room. And sometimes couples will just kind of sit on the couch and do all of the married things while their spouse is saying that they're done, but they're still benefiting. And so sometimes when you remove that and it creates this motivation that says, Hey, I want this marriage, but I'm not willing to just keep giving. And you have to almost create this vacuum of like, oh, I miss this about our marriage, or I miss this about what you give.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 26:36
Yeah, I could use an example on that, a really concrete example if that would help. Yeah. The other night I made dinner and I'm putting together all the salad with it. And we both came home from work, so we're both tired. You know, it's about 7:30, we're hangry. So I'm putting together everything. Jake's bringing in the trash can, doing all that kind of stuff, right? So he's working too. And then he had, I think, one job to cut up the onion and put on put cut up the onion.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 27:01
It's a big job, especially if it involves tears.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 27:04
True. This is true. So, we did that, but I found myself a little agitated because I came down, I changed into my comfortable clothes and came down and he's sitting there and he's finished most of his salad, and I don't have any water, and he's got his water and everything. And I'm like, um, I can either be resentful and go, I just did 90% of that and you did nothing, or I can turn to him and say, you know what, this is not okay. I need you to get me the get me something to drink if I've done all this. And he's like, Yeah, you're right. And then he then he said, Well, how about I get uh some berries for us for dessert? And immediately then he took care of that. So that that's an example of me just saying, I'm starting to get a little resentful because I did so much of this, and now you're getting fed and you're halfway done through this, and I'm still working to, you know, this is like the complaint of so many women.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 27:53
It was a good salad, by the way.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 27:54
It was a good salad. The berries were great. And sure enough, when he did that, I was like, good, this is done. But that that's an example of don't just be quiet and simmer. Say, I need to be nurtured too, or this doesn't feel very fair to me. I I'm gonna voice it and then I'm gonna either ask for something. Jake uh offered up something, which was great, and that's even better if because that's super concrete. Just complain or explain is very abstract to say, because I did all of this. I mean, if I was it would have been better if I would have said, because I did all this, if you can now get me something else, that would be great. You know, but they said, How do I make this fair? And he quickly did problem solving.
Karen Covy 28:37
Which is awesome because you two have established like a level of trust and respect, and you both own your crowns and all the things, right? But what if you're in a marriage where that is not the dynamic, right? Where the dynamic is one person really wanted to, because this is what I see. One person wants to work on the marriage, the other one's just sort of like, go along, come along. It's okay. Like they're not motivated to actually do any work. Then the person who's doing all the work one day says, That's it, I'm done.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 29:10
Right.
Karen Covy 29:10
And they, you know, and then the other person is like, wait, wait, now I'm ready, right? Which how do you deal with that?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 29:18
And typically, we'll stereotype. Typically, it's the woman saying, I'm done, because she's women are relationally motivated. We're the culture keepers. And the man goes, Oh, wait, wait, I'm ready. And so I do say this too sometimes first. The I'd say if the man is ready, still for the, like Jake said, let the woman still stand down and create the vacuum. There needs to be some appreciation for what she's provided. He needs to fill life a little bit without her. Like, what does this feel like? And we already know men do not do well without women, you know, they don't live longer, uh, any of that. So, she can just simmer down a little bit and hold her boundaries to say, I don't appreciate this. I need you to grow and I need you to get some help. And then if you choose not to do that, then this is not a partnership that is fulfilling for me, right? So sometimes when a woman actually takes action instead of just keeps complaining or explaining or criticizing and creates that vacuum, then the man is forced to make a difficult decision. How bad do I want this partnership? And how bad do I want to salvage it? And what am I willing to do? And those men are wonderful to work with. See me that like, okay, give me about six months and you leave your wife alone, and we're gonna work on how to nurture your wife, how to be fair, you know, that type of thing. And they that once a man learns that, they are, I think there's one great stat, 95% of the time, a man is uh if he learns bad behavior, he learns good behavior, he really sticks with it. It's those are really exciting relationships.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 31:06
It's true. And it's and you're right, as soon as the woman mentions the D word, and then he realizes that she's important, and we're stereotyping, so obviously there's other marriages that are the opposite, but usually that's when they're they panic and they're like flowers, everything, like what do I have to do? And the woman's like too little, too late, and they don't think it's going to last right because it's like a flash in the pan. And so one of the things we tell couples is if you've been working, like you just said, and then you're finally done, and then it sparks the other person to go, wait, wait, wait, they have to stay back and let the other person prove themselves for a lengthy period of time.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 31:59
Yes, it takes about nine months to restore trust. Yeah,
Karen Covy
Oh wow, I didn't know that.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill
Yeah, it takes a month to break a habit or form a new one, three months to not neurologically rewire, and nine months to restore trust. So there needs to be a good six months of some different behavior.
Karen Covy 32:18
But what would you say to people? Because sometimes, like when the woman or the man, whoever it is, when the when the partner gets to the point where they say, I'm done, they're really done. Like they're not playing, there's no coming back from this. So, how can what can couples do so that they can have this conversation and try to create, recreate the trust and change their relationship before one of them passes the point of no return?
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 32:47
Well, I just take couples through this exercise of both of them writing out what is their ideal marriage. If every I tell couples, if every couple did this before they got married, we'd probably be out of a job. But if we wrote down what are expectations, what are desires, what would make this marriage something that I could sign up for another 40 years?
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 33:10
Yeah.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 33:11
And if both do that separately, it's such a helpful exercise so that they both can see independently what the other person really wants, really is important. And then they can set those side by side. And I tell couples all the time, I go, This will either confirm your divorce, because we get people coming all the time, like this is our last stitch effort, right? This is we're gonna do one appointment, and that's it's either gonna save us or not, which is
Karen Covy 33:38
Oh, that's good. They give you one whole appointment to figure it out.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 33:40
One whole appointment, yeah. Yeah, we're that good. Yeah, and I tell them, I go, This exercise will either confirm your decision to say, wow, no wonder why we're fighting all the time, because we want very different things out of marriage, or it'll you'll realize, like, oh my, we want a lot of the same things, but we've never voiced them, we've never written them down, and we've never gone after them. And so it becomes a powerful thing, and it oftentimes most couples are not in arranged marriages, so there actually is compatibility there that brought them together, but it's been so far gone that they have to be reminded when they see it side by side on paper, they have to go, Oh, we do want the same things. And then I say, now live that. Now you have to make purple out of that list, and you need to see, can you live that? Because now the man or the woman, you know, each partner can't say, Yeah, that's the marriage you want. I don't really want that. It's like, no, you've written it down of the marriage you want. So now I can hold you accountable to your own words.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 34:52
Yeah, we'd like to say, could you make this marriage for me? Could you be that soulmate for me? Could you fix all of this? And I will say uh that's something that I have to work a lot with women. I'm like, take your place, your crown is slipping, get on your throne, speak to what you want. If the gut, if the man is a good-hearted man, he just needs to be taught. And sometimes he's not very teachable until there's some time out and there's some space and everybody's simmered down. So that's a huge one, is like separation. A lot of times people go is the pre-curse cursor divorce. No, it is not. It is like two people in a sandbox that keep throwing sand at each other, and it's like, can you please go to your corners and take a time out? And then you're gonna learn some better behavior. And if you both are working, not texting or dating other people, right? But you both are working on this, learning some better behavior, there is a science to how to love. There is a science how to actually there is a oxytocin. It's a uh it's a hormone compared to adrenaline. So we really try to shift the hormone of adrenaline, which is fear-based in the relationship to more of an with where oxytocin is what is the really you become addicted to each other. You're like, I just need some of these oxy hits because this is my home, right? So, there is a science to that too that we bring in, and that's a lot of through attachment work. So it's not just a mind over matter, it's basically and especially women are leaving relationships, a lot of times not because they don't love their partner, but the adrenaline is too high in the relationship. There's too much fear. So, there's two, and men are sustain uh adrenaline better than women. So, women are getting flooded with the adrenaline. So they're going, I can't handle it. And they literally can't. You know, this is killing women. So we do little things like men sit down when there's conflict, you know, make sure studies.
Karen Covy
Oh, that's interesting.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill
Yeah, the man sits down.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 36:49
It lowers the conflict by like 60% just by sitting down.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 36:55
Right. And wow, dialoguing instead of arguing, you know, take timeouts um so that you're not in this state of floodedness, that you're in that fight or flight. So every time you're the woman goes through fight or flight, it takes 45 minutes for her to calm down. It takes minutes for men, right? So women a lot of times are so stressed out, they're not sleeping, uh, they're not eating well or taking care of themselves. And it's because there's too much adrenaline. So, we really work on how to bring in more oxytocin because that's what the women, woman thrives in. And then when the woman thrives, she brings in a beautiful culture. I mean, we're just life givers, you know, that's what we're designed for. So, then we bring in this beautiful culture, and the guy goes, Oh, I like this.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 37:44
I said, happy wife, happy life. And for the record, I'm gonna just tag on to her is that obviously none of this works if there's a third party involved.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 37:54
Yeah, good point.
Karen Covy 37:55
That's an important point to me.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 37:58
I think that's a gimme.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 37:59
Right. You think that's a gimme, but yeah, if you have somebody on the side and you're like, Yeah, I don't know why we can't work on our marriage, like, hmm, yeah.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 38:06
Right. We'll be working with a couple, and we're like, this none of these principles are taking. And we're like, let's stop and assess. Who are you talking to? You know, or what are you viewing? What's going on? So yeah.
Karen Covy 38:17
Interesting. Well, I I could keep talking to the two of you for hours and hours because this is fascinating. And what I found in the work that I do is that most people, not all, but most people, if they could save the marriage that they're in, they'd rather do that. But they only they're looking at divorce because they don't see other options, right? And your work is giving people another option, and I think that's beautiful. So if people are interested in learning more and in working with you, where's the best place for them to find you?
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 38:53
Well, you can go to our website, which is drsjakeandjenn.com. Two Ns on the Jenn. I have to remind people of that. Uh, and uh we have a lot of information there about our practice and about what we do. We also have a podcast on all of the platforms that uh we would love to invite you to uh tune into, and it's called the Doctor's J and J podcast. Pretty basic. And we have a book, uh, and Jen has it right here.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 39:28
Yeah, two crowns, one kingdom. Yeah. Uh and this actually just walks you through um everything we're talking about. We look at uh marriage as being a business, a talk we you do your business, your uh mission statement in there and your values and that type of thing.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 39:42
Yeah.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 39:42
So yeah, we just uh it'll walk through the couple, we'll walk can walk through that and do exercises with that too. So yeah, those are lots of options. No excuse. Yeah, no excuse for sure.
Karen Covy 39:54
I love that. And for anyone who's watching or listening, we will link to everything. I'm assuming you can get the book on Amazon, right? Yep, yeah.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 40:01
Get the book on Amazon. Yep.
Karen Covy 40:02
Everything is going to be linked in the show notes. So it's easy, easy, easy for anybody to find you, to find your book, to find your programs, to find everything you do. Doctors, Jake, and Jen, thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversation.
Dr. Jake Dean-Hill 40:16
Thank you. It's been such a fun conversation.
Dr. Jenn Dean-Hill 40:19
The work that you do. There's times that relationships have to deteriorate. So thank you. There's a place for you for and in your work as well. So appreciate that.
Karen Covy 40:28
Well, thank you. And for those of you out there who are watching or who are listening, if you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did, do me a big favor give it a thumbs up, like, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and I look forward to talking with you all again next time.
